 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: djdelama
Date: 2005-01-12 15:36
I have an old wooden Buffet (purchased new in the late 60's) which has developed a hairline crack on the upper joint that appears to extend from the tenon to the hole for the G# key. I'm not really in a position to invest a lot of money in getting the crack pinned, and I'm strictly an amateur who plays for my own amusement anyway.
The bore has never been oiled. I'd start doing that regularly (with the hope that that will at least prevent the crack from getting any worse) but I'm concerned about the possibility that doing so might actually make the crack worse. Any reason to be concerned about this? Any special precautions that should be taken when oiling the bore of a horn with a crack?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-12 15:40
Get the crack repaired. It'll just get worse. In a pinch, if you don't have the money RIGHT away, place electrical tape on top of the crack in hopes of keeping the wood SLIGHTLY reinforced. But pinning is the best. The only way to truly save the clarinet.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: susieray
Date: 2005-01-12 19:36
Yes, you need to have it repaired. I would not even play it until I had the crack fixed because it will only get worse.
sue
Post Edited (2005-01-12 19:41)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: djdelama
Date: 2005-01-12 20:15
Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and get it properly fixed, and it looks like it won't cost quite as much as I anticipated (I've been told by the repairman that it probably won't be more than $100, which seems reasonable).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-12 21:56
"because it will only get worse."
Is that really true?
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-13 01:46
If the crack goes into the tone hole, then it is almost certainly causing a leak.
There is not enough timber between the C#/G# key's tone hole and the tenon to insert a pin.
The simple approach, that MAY last forever, is to fill the crack with superglue. If the split is quite wide, grenadilla powder could be incorporated as a filler.
An added, stabilising approach could be to install a metal band (instead of part of the timber) at the upper end of the tenon itself.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: susieray
Date: 2005-01-13 04:25
In my experience with clarinets that have cracked, they got worse when I kept playing on them. I can only speak from the experience I have had with my own clarinets. I suppose it may not be true for everyone but that was my experience. Maybe I'm just jinxed? ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Sue
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-13 05:26
*****"The simple approach, that MAY last forever, is to fill the crack with superglue.*****
No kidding? Have you ever done this or just reading from lousy repair manual?
Amateurs!
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2005-01-13 10:05
hey Vytass, Gordon might have some odd ideas, and he surely doesn't have your experience with top line horns (though he's certainly seen a few) but that was a bit mean, eh? He is most certainly NOT an amateur.
.....after all- i have actually heard the "superglue solution" from more than one source, including Richard Hawkins (who, while not a repair person, has certainly "been around the block a few times").
btw it was better advice than "electrical tape" (which will do nothing good or bad, but leave a sticky mess to deal with)
i actually imagined the "Gsharp" hole referred to was the Throat Gsharp, not "c#/g#" at the middle tenon....?
cracks sometimes continue to grow
other times they do not....
a temporary solution to a crack that goes into a tone hole (if it's a small one) is to put molten wax into the crack/around the tonehole.... then when it's solidified remove the excess wax- this is just a temporary solution, but it will repair the seal. (it was once considered a good thing to do to all the toneholes on a clarinet that had very grainy wood, but i haven't heard of anyone doing this in the last 25 years)
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-01-13 11:29
Vytas:
Time to get off the high-horse and accept that there are other good techs in this world. The advice given by GordonNZ on this BB has been thorough & good, and I personally would send my horn to him before you. Why? I put my trust in a person who doesn't come off as a cocky stuffed shirt anyday. People who think they are the cat's meow frequently miss the real issues because they think they already know the problem/solution.
You've been here long enough. There was no reason for that reply to Gordon.
Prima donnas!
MOO,
Matt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-13 12:01
Thanks for the support, guys.
I resisted using simply superglue for many years, regarding the resulting set material as just too brittle to accommodate future movement in the timber.
However when I found in 'the' repair technicians' forum that other technicians had been using this approach for some time, I gave it a go too, but only for relatively minor splits.
The results over a few years have pleasantly surprised me. With my analytical approach, the only explanation I have for this working so well is that:
1. A very thin superglue can be applied so that it goes to the very bottom of the split and eventually fills the entire split.
2. As long as the split is very narrow, the brittleness of the superglue is not a significant issue.
3. It adheres to even somewhat oily timber sufficiently well that the bond does not part and allow the split to open. All the movement would be in the timber. Or perhaps superglue actually expands with moisture much the same as the grenadilla does.
Superglue with grenadilla filler has been an extremely successful approach by many technicians for a long time now.
And yes, I assumed the split was as I mentioned, in the C#/G# key's tone hole area, not the throat G# area. If a split went from the upper tenon all the way to throat G# then I would very likely pin the split, unless it were very narrow.
Do not take this as an encouragement for DIY guys to take up supergluing splits. It can do severe cosmetic damage to the coating on surrounding timber. I take precautions to protect it. Clean-up etc to get an invisible (or very close to it) result can also be quite involved.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-13 13:28
Dear Vytas...I believe that we regulars respect your opinions and expertise. Why destroy our confidence with rash comments about another respected member. Apologies are always acceptable.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-13 13:36
Quote:
Donald wrote . . .
btw it was better advice than "electrical tape" (which will do nothing good or bad, but leave a sticky mess to deal with) Hmmm. Maybe I got it wrong. But I remember a clarinet professor once telling me (can't remember which one, high school, college, someone I just met), but I remember him telling me that in his bag o' emergency stuff that he brings to concerts was some sort of tape to put on a crack should the clarinet crack while playing.
Maybe the purpose was more to keep air from leaking out than to keep the crack from spreading.
Can someone clarify this for me?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-13 14:38
Alexi..My opinions: There are(have been) at least three types of electrical tape: Friction tape, rubber tape and today's plastic tape. Today's plastic tape doesn't really leave a sticky mess,the others probably will. Yes, the electrical tape is used to prevent air escape...placed longitudinally on the crack. Since plastic electrical tape is flexible I doubt it could prevent crack progression. An aside: Teflon tape is usually suggested as a temporary remedy for a worn cork tenon. There are two types of teflon tape: The regular one and the one for gas pipe fittings which is thicker and easier to work with. Plastic electrical tape...even thicker... can also be used....but put a tad of cork grease on it after applying.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-13 16:10
Crack repair using superglue (alone), tuning a clarinet with electrical tape, broken spring repair with a robber band etc. falls into amateur emergency repair category. It would be a disgrace to any professional technician and the profession itself to use any of these methods.
Superglue alone should not be used on any crack repair in the wood. 99.9% of these repairs fail as soon as the weather conditions change. Unless you get the very thin kind of superglue (sold by Ferreestools) it doesn't penetrate into hairline crack at all. Natural oils in the wood make superglue (alone) very lousy choice for crack repair.
Matt Locker wrote:
****"Time to get off the high-horse and accept that there are other good techs in this world."****
I do strive for perfection. I have very high standards for myself and my profession. So my horse indeed is very high and you can't do much about it.
donald wrote:
****"hey Vytass, Gordon might have some odd ideas, and he surely doesn't have your experience with top line horns (though he's certainly seen a few) but that was a bit mean, eh? He is most certainly NOT an amateur."****
Gordon said he had no formal training and works 3 hours a day behind the bench. Does it make him a professional? Not in the USA, for sure. Donald, I assume you ACCIDENTALLY distorted my name or jus trying to be a smart A$$?
BobD wrote:
****"Dear Vytas...I believe that we regulars respect your opinions and expertise. Why destroy our confidence with rash comments about another respected member. Apologies are always acceptable."****
I do respect his knowledge in some areas but he doesn't have to scream the loudest on things he has very little understanding about.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2005-01-13 18:20
kia ora
Vytas- sorry about the incorrect spelling of your name- late at night, most certainly NOT a joke. i am certain that you are an excellent artist and have always thought that it would be interesting to meet you (OK Symposium 05?). i just thought that you were a little unfair, and was just trying to put things in perspective....
Yes Gordon is "self taught", has no formal training and this sometimes shows in his inventive ideas (thinks outside the square etc). What shows up rather more on the bulletin board is that being here in NZ he has been isolated from the worlds top players. A handful of "quite good" players have been in and out of his workshop, but the people you have been fortunate enough to hear and work for are largely just names for all but a handful of the clarinet community (such as it is) here in NZ. Our 15 top players are very very good, after that it's pretty sad. He is comming from an environment where the most common reaction to hearing the Marcellus recording of K622 is "oh, that's boring" (i KID YOU NOT).
This being said, Gordon (who has only in reccent years reduced his workload to 3 hrs per day) has demonstrated over the years a most satisfying precision in his work, thoughtful inovation, and has certainly done some great "reconditioning" and "overhaul" work over the years. i differ with him on some aspects of set up, pad-height and ring-height for instance.... but then most players will have a slightly different version of how that should go.
....and of course i have to mention that the most disapointing "recondition/overhaul" in my experience was from a highly trained repair tech from a major international city. NO i'm not saying who it was (the world is a small place and i've made too many enemies as it is!)
keep playing the good tunes
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-01-13 19:57
Vytas:
From "The American Heritage Dictionary":
high horse n : an attitude of arrogant superiority
I truly believe your standards are high. I don't question that & would expect that from you. That doesn't qualify you to be arrogant. Your remark to Gordon, following with the "Amateur" statement, qualifies as an extremely arrogant & in my opinion offensive remark. As BobD said so succinctly, "Apologies are always acceptable".
I'll leave it at that.
MOO,
Matt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-13 20:18
Donald, Matt
I'm not questioning Gordon's repair ability. Please don't take it that way. NO an attitude of arrogant superiority was intended. It's about repairing/filling the crack with superglue (alone). That's all.
PS
My English skills are not so great yet. So I might expressed myself wrong.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-01-13 20:18
Enough sniping, please.
There are enough well-know and respected repairers who use superglue on small cracks of specific types to make it an acceptable alternative in some cases.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-01-13 21:34
Vytas:
Thanks for clarifying & my apologies for misunderstanding. Let's all continue the very civil discourse this BB is known for.
To the next subject.............
Thanks,
Matt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
