 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-07 11:25
Hi,
With Mark's recent problems with DoS attacks, I began to think about the software that I use as a browser (Internet Explorer) and for email (Microsoft Outlook). I know that PC World Magazine is very high on using alternatives such as Opera, Mozilla, Firefox, or even Netscape but what do you use? I know that many of the internet attacks that are experienced are directed solely at Microsoft products.
Is transitioning to other software programs the better way for me to proceed in the long run? I ask this question on this BB since I would suspect that we have an excellent cross-section of users of all abilities and from many different countries.
Also, many of you are techies that really know this stuff and to keep this on topic, play clarinet!
Disclaimer: I own no individual stock in any software companies other than what might be a very small part of a tech mutual fund.
HRL
PS I use Norton Firewall and their Anti-Virus programs and am religious about getting updates.
Post Edited (2005-01-07 12:05)
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2005-01-07 12:00
We started using the Firefox/Thunderbird combination about 2 months ago. I'm not entirely sold on them yet, but they are suppose to be less vulnerable to security issues. I'm sure that will change if they catch on. Oh, and to keep this on topic....there is a picture of a clarinet in the wallpaper on the computer that runs said software
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-01-07 12:05
Hank,
I use mainly microsoft Internet explorer and outlook to do the job.....
There are many competitors in this line of business, but I still think that microsoft can better interact with their own platform....
If you would like to now everything that I’ve done with my network to protect myself, just email me offline….. because it would be a very long story ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-01-07 12:12
I'm a Firefox convert! I wish there were a way to completely remove Internet Explorer!
I am still using Outlook because it can synchronise with my Palm and my phone. If I could change I would, but I'm still not completely convinced by Thunderbird.
On other notes, my most favourite piece of software of all time is "Y'z Shadow" (Google it); it puts shadows under your windows, much like a Mac does. It sounds like nothing, but seriously, it makes everything look so much better!
My second-favourite piece of software is Skype (again, Google it): It's an internet telephony client, and can not only call other users for free, but also can call any mobile or land-line in the world at incredible rates! You'll need a microphone and speakers/headphones. It also runs sufficiently on dial-up; just don't expect to do conference calls.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: HedgeWitch
Date: 2005-01-07 12:15
I use Mozilla Firefox for browsing and love it, no problems at all in the time since I stopped using IE, Now if I could just persuade my 8 year old to use it my life would be a lot simpler, I never knew kids had the capacity for filling your hd's with so much garbage :P
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-07 12:27
Hi,
Great answers so far, thanks.
I did try Opera and Firefox/Thunderbird a little bit but confirned the experiment to my laptop. There were a few things that did not seem quite so "user-friendly" though. I did factor in that my lack of familiarity was part of the culprit but did not get that warm, fuzzy feeling like "this is the one."
I don't mind taking the time to really become acclimated to platform changes but I had trouble seeing that the useability would be better.
But then, do users of these other programs really feel safer and more impervious to attack? That's probably the most critical issue. However, as Pappy seemed to imply, it may only be a matter of time until others catch on to the alternates.
HRL
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-01-07 12:30
I moved to Firefox & Thunderbird; Firefox is pretty robust, missing some plugins I'd like to have. Thunderbird is usable - it's got a couple of goofy problems in the IMAP area and I had to find & copy in a short Javascript program so that it would update all my folders (since I pre-filer them at the server level) and it still isn't quite right.
The Thunderbird news reader is just plain proken, so I still use Outlook Express for news reading.
Outlook is a much more complete suite of associated applications and works pretty darn well, but I hardly used the associated apps (except for the "post-it" notes) at home.
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Author: HedgeWitch
Date: 2005-01-07 12:55
I don't particularly worry about viruses and spyware, I keep my blockers and diadnostic software up to date and running but I don't lose sleep worrying about it, the occasional clean up or re-format and re-install is character building. If like me your computer is up and running 24/7 365 then you expect the occasional hiccup.
Now if something gets in the way of my gaming, that's a different matter entirely :O
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-07 13:27
I use Maxthon as a browser (http://www.maxthon.com). Has a built in filter that works very well IMHO, and is similar enough to IE so you won't get lost. Also utilizes a "tab" system so clicking on a link doesn't open a new window, only a new 'tab' (makes it quicker to open/close links)
For email I use Pegasus mail (http://www.pmail.com) Works well for me.
They are both freeware and available for download.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-07 14:27
Although I'm fairly computer literate I learned long ago that it was easier to "wear a coordinated outfit" instead of mixing and matching. I'm not in love with Microsoft but I stay with their products just because it's simpler than learning new protocols.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-07 14:43
Draz,
Your comments along with Mark's about using the whole suite is really an extremely vaid one. Like stuff seems to work better together.
There are a lot of things that I like about the Microsoft products (probably more than I dislike) and they share a lot of ergonomic as well as probably structural similarities. All this makes it easier from an operational perspective.
The $64,000 question (remember when that was a whole lot of money) though is will keeping current with all software updates and having maybe a double firewall keep my system safe. My street sense says yes but if Mark has to endure DoS problems, am I just "whistling a happy tune?"
HRL
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-07 14:57
There's a new version of the Opera browser that's gotten good reviews. One of the nice features is that you can browse in text-mode, which is super-fast.
A DDOS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack has no relation to whether you're using a Microsoft product. A server is bombarded with millions of incoming requests for attention, which saturate its ability to respond no matter what software it's running. For a fill explanation, see http://www.grc.com/dos/drdos.htm and http://www.grc.com/dos/grcdos.htm .
Ken Shaw
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-01-07 15:07
I use:
Internet Explorer
Eudora Pro (with the clarinet crack prevention technology)
Norton SystemWorks with antivirus
Zonealarm firewall
Ad-Aware
Spybot Search and Destroy
I back up to DVD when I think of it (not often enough probably).
Norton slows down my computer, but that's the price of being relatively safer I guess.
Hans
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2005-01-07 15:30
I clung to Netscape for a long time for the IMAP mail. But now it's Firefox/Thunderbird, which seamlessly imported my bookmark and mail folder structures (without disturbing the existing browser/mail setup). The occurence of popups and other bad behavior is now about zero.
Outlook (sometimes called "Lookout!") is a magnet for attacks which use your address book to promulgate mischief, and most feature-rich mail programs simply put too much stuff on the screen for my taste. Every additional toolbar and icon subtracts from the display area (Eudora, for example).
John Morton
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-01-07 15:34
Ken Shaw wrote:
> A DDOS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack has no relation
> to whether you're using a Microsoft product. A server is
> bombarded with millions of incoming requests for attention,
> which saturate its ability to respond no matter what software
> it's running.
Which is exactly what happened (not just a DoS, but a DDoS), targeted at the 32 IP numbers assigned to one of my network connections, and as we were fighting that we saw it roll to the 4 IP numbers I have on a second connection. It happened over a 3 day period of time, slowly at first so it wasn't noticable. My servers are pretty well protected against a number of attacks - but - it ended up filling the hardware router tables rather than affecting the servers - e.g., I could log into the servers locally (or through a back channel) just fine, but they couldn't talk to the Internet.
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2005-01-07 16:10
Hank:
Firefox as a browser is a solid choice as is Eudora for an email client and there isn't anything wrong with Norton's for virus scanning although you may also want to add Ad-Aware and Search and Destroy to catch tracking cookies and spyware that Nortons doesn't catch.
A real problem though is if you are connecting via a cable modem or other broadband service. In that case you really need a firewall. If your service provider uses what are called floating IP addresses your a bit less of a target, or at least a moving one rather than a fixed IP, but either way people will come knocking and unless your locked down, they will get in.
A lot of these distributed attacks come from folks whose systems have been hacked and then get used to mount the attacks and don't realize it. A decent router with a firewall between the cable modem and your computers can go a long way in keeping the amateurs out of your system.
Best
RW
Best
Rick
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-07 18:47
Rick,
On the strong recommendation of you as well as of several others, I've loaded Firefox on my main computer and have begun to use it. So far, all bookmarks transferred easily and already I have discovered some subtle but nice differences.
I'll stay with Lookout for the present time and continue to use Norton Firewall & System Works, Spybot, and Adware. It's too bad that one has to take all these precautions but it is a jungle out there!
Thanks everyone for the quick and thoughtful responses. Hopefully, my quest will help others avoid on-line problems as well.
HRL
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Author: beejay
Date: 2005-01-07 19:44
I've used Opera for the past eight years, and never had a problem. It now comes with built-in email as well.
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2005-01-08 00:58
I grew increasingly frustrated wth the instability, bugginess and non-standard implementations (read: IE and IIS) of Microsoft products after years of using them exclusively. Then when viruses and spyware hit big time in the last few years I'd had enough.
As a result, I've been completely Microsoft-free since Apple ditched their classic Mac OS, which I liked, and replaced it with a much more robust, elegant (IMHO) and rock-solid UNIX platform - Mac OS X.
I generally use Apple's built-in Mail e-mail client and Safari web browser, but not exclusively. Sometimes just for yuks I'll use Thunderbird for e-mail and either Firefox or Camino for web browsing. They're all good.
And, with the built-in Mac Os X firewall in use, along with current Norton AntiVirus updates, I really don't worry too much about viruses, spyware and other malware. I've never, ever had a single virus or bit of spyware on my Mac.
There are lots of choices out there for replacing Outlook, IE and even Windows itself. Explore them! Kind of like clarinets - not everyone plays Buffet, Selmer or Leblanc, etc.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-01-08 00:59
sfalexi: Firefox has all the features you mention.
I've found that in the past, somehow I have had software installed on my computer that pops up ads when you browse pages and it sees trigger words, and therefore pops up a related ad.
However, Firefox doesn't have this problem as so far, this program only sucks off IE.
It will also notify you if a web site tried to open another window or install software, and you can create a Safe List. I believe that IE now contains a similar feature as of SP2.
I also love in Firefox how you can completely customize the bars at the top; I've even got a weather forecast and can control iTunes from my browser!
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: moose6589
Date: 2005-01-08 12:44
I use Firefox and Thunderbird exclusively, and they're both wonderful for my needs. Firefox is very secure and based on robust code, so even as it gets more popular, it won't have as many problems as IE. It doesn't allow ActiveX either, which is one of the main problems in IE.
Firefox is simply an amazing piece of software, and the wonderful extensions make it even better. If you start using Firefox, I suggest you browse the list of extensions to see what interests you. Personally, a few of my favorite are Adblock, Mouse Gestures, and undoclosetab.
Adblock can block just about all the ads you see on the internet with just a little configuration, making your browsing experience much less frustrating and much more relaxing. No more flashing ads!
Mouse gestures make browsing a lot faster and easier because you don't have to keep moving your mouse up to click on the navigation bar or menus as you can do so much with gestures. Opera has this as well by default.
Undoclosetab is able to reopen a tab that you may have closed accidentally.
Thunderbird is good simply because it is not Outlook and doesn't have the myriad security holes that Outlook has.
If you really want security, then I suggest that you shouldn't even be using Windows! You might want to consider a Unix-based OS like MacOSX or a Linux distro for the best security. When you use Linux, you don't even need antivirus or firewall programs, and most Linux users I know of don't even use these as they have no need for them!
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-01-08 18:26
Mozilla 1.7
Norton Internet Security 2005
SpyBot S & D
Ad-Aware SE (personal) 1.05
I do automatic Windows updates, including SP-2. I switched from IE to Mozilla as it is supposed to be better at preventing auto-executable scripts, as I understand it, and my previous computer was trashed by a trojan horse hijacker, so I learned the hard way. But a knowledgeable friend now thinks that IE may be safer than Mozilla, because the Windows updates protect IE, but for Mozilla there are no updates. Opinions? (I know this is a clarinet forum, not a computer forum).
Steve Epstein
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-01-08 18:47
Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, et al. are less likely to have problems (though not completely immune) for one main reason:
Microsoft products has very powerful and easy-to-use (and abuse) languages and objects that tie all the products, including the operating system, together. While this can make for a nice user experience, it also leads to easy abuses by those intent on doing harm. The above browsers, while "scriptable", are pretty much independent of the mailer and more powerful operating system functionality.
There are updates and such available as needed for those other browsers, but the chances are it'll be in a point release rather than a patch for now.
I expect that since Thunderbird and Firefox can intercommunicate that there'll be some exploit, but since it's freeware rather than the Microsoft product the chances are that the perpetrators will be hated rather than ignored (or made into "anti-heros").
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-08 21:52
Hi,
PC World in the February 2005 issue has a nice set of articles on the topic of browsers and email. Firefox and Opera seemed top be the top choices although there are other alternatives.
Moose6589's comments are very good. I located the extensions easily and there seems to be just about whatever one wants. I do not notice any signifcant transition problems with Firefox as I use the same Yahoo homepage but the bookmarks are much easier to manage.
HRL
PS There is an interesting comment in the article about keeping IE to get such sites as Windows Update which does not work with Firefox.
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Author: Snowy
Date: 2005-01-08 22:34
I personally use Opera (but version 5.12 rather than the latest 7.5 because it is faster) and Pegasus mail for email.
The latter particularly is very strong on protection from suspect items and is configuarble to actually delet these at your ISP if you wish.
In addition, one product which has not been mentioned is Webwasher, a free (for personal use filter) . This is a particularly useful tool for blocking unwanted advertising content and speeding up browsing for those of us still on dial up connections.
It can be downloaded from the following site
http://www.webwasher.com/client/download/index.html?lang=de_EN
Snowy
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-01-09 00:30
I normally use Maxthon and Firefox. They are two of the best browsers I've found to use. You have to be willing to put time into Firefox to make it good, however.
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Author: Camanda
Date: 2005-01-09 00:42
I use Firefox, and we have Outlook Express, but I prefer to read my e-mail directly at the Gmail page. For security software, I installed ZoneAlarm Pro and AVG Anti-Virus. For adware, I installed AdAware 6 and SpyBot Search & Destroy whatever-version. We are on a cable connection, and my father is fairly clueless about reading boxes before he clicks "OK", so we require all of that.
Amanda Cournoyer
URI Clarinet Ensemble, Bass Clarinet
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Author: Kathrynsmom
Date: 2005-01-09 01:35
Hans and I use most of the same setup, except that I use Firefox along with Outlook (Microsoft Office). No problems.
Zonealarm pro firewall and Norton AV (in Systemworks) are critical parts of my system. ZA and Norton AV work well together, and I'm not convinced that any other AV is adequate. I've tried most of them.
ZA is the only firewall I've found to allow me specific program control. Norton Firewall is inferior. So I've come to this setup.
No invasions yet. The big difference has been with ZA Pro. I would not trade it for anything. I did have a problem once before I got it, but none since.
Firefox is good because of the tabs, and while I sometimes must use IE, I prefer Firefox.
One small problem with this: Norton does tend to slow things down. However, it does scan everything that goes in or out of Outlook (mail), IE, Firefox, etc. I figure I've traded speed for security.
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Author: Sarah
Date: 2005-01-09 03:12
Like many other people here, I use Firefox. I just check my email through the browser, because Outlook 2003 runs REALLY slow on my computer.
For Firefox I have a bunch of extentions, including one for iTunes, weather, and adblock. What I really like about it is how customizable it is. I don't have to have a bunch of features that I won't use.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-01-09 07:47
"Love at first site" haha good one!!
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-01-14 00:42
I've used Opera for both web and email almost exclusively for the past three years (here and there a page is unfriendly to non-IE browsers). In that time, my various static-IP, no antivirus, no firewall machines have only once been hit by any virus or spyware, and that was on a clean install of Windows that didn't yet have the updates. Granted, I'm careful.
The Opera interface, in its default setup, I find quite unfriendly. The setup from around version 5 was very friendly, and with a bit of effort (3 minutes if you know what you're doing, but there's plenty you can experiment) you can move toolbars etc. around and disable some of the less desirable "features" to make it extremely friendly and intuitive. Some people mind the advertisement, but I find it a small price to pay for friendly browsing.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-14 13:49
Hi,
After a week of Firefox, I'm sold. Not quite the same with Thunderbird.
I may stay with Lookout as I tried to transfer files from it to another drive/disk (use Windowes Explorer, have Outlook and the WE open to 1/2 pages and drag and drop - a good trick if you need to save Outlook files on another disk).
I was not able to do this unless their is an extension that I missed.
Anyone have a better clue on this?
HRL
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-01-14 14:03
Hank Lehrer wrote:
> I may stay with Lookout as I tried to transfer files from it to
> another drive/disk
Rather than going to an extension ... in the future you may want to try IMAP - IMAP is a much more sophisticated way of talking to a mail server than POP3. If your mail server supports it (the woodwind.org mail server supports it, of course!  ).
IMAP keeps your mail folders on the mail server rather than the local computer, which means no trying to move folders anymore from one computer to another when it's replaced, everything's available if you're a "road warrior", even from a public Internet kiosk or library, etc. Thunderbird works better than Outlook Express or Outlook (Full) with IMAP after I did just a small tweak.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-01-14 23:49
IMAP has its disadvantages too. It's great for using multiple machines, but not so good for archiving or if you change services... just be careful not to hit your disk space limit, and make sure you know if your server deletes old messages you might want.
Both IMAP and POP have their plusses and minuses... it just depends on where you want your mail to be housed: on a remote server, or your computer.
The best choice is using a server that can talk through both POP and IMAP. That way you can check mail whenever and wherever you like, and archive them at home.
Another plug for Opera: There's a single folder that you can copy and paste to a new computer that contains all your settings, mail, etc. It was great for me at work when I switched machines about 5 times in a year. Opera also has a full-text search for all your email (or categorized, etc.).
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-15 01:33
Mark and Alex,
Good stuff with the IMAP which I can use with my ISP's webmail feature but it seems pretty clunky even compared to Tbird or Outlook. Also. my ISP's limits on storage are not very generous so saving some big files might really necessitate an added fee.
I do use the IMAP feature sometimes while on the road and then when back home, retrieve the whole lot to my office computer. It's OK but...
I think I may need to try that Opera email program and see if the feature that Alex has pointed out works for me. I need to save a huge amount of student work in the form of papers and assignments that come to me via email. I know I could just copy the file from the message but I like to have the message as a historical reference.
I realize a long way from clarinets but I think the typical user on this BB has many of the same problems that I have and trying solve my little problem on a techie forum might not work well.
HRL
PS I'll report back on the Opera email.
.
Post Edited (2005-01-15 02:00)
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