 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-05-10 19:11
Have any of you had good or great students go bad, and when it's clearly not the student's fault, but rather the parents? Let me tell you what happened to me.
I had faced a serious problem with one of my student’s parents.
Because the student, who is 12, was clearly overextending herself (her
musical activities were band, clarinet ensemble, all-city band and
private lessons; her non-musical activities consisted on two different
art clubs, one within and the other outside of school, school
yearbook, and morning announcments), which I learned at the end of January. The student was the one trying to join so many activities, which I spoke to both her and her parents, and it was agreed that lessons would resume after the March Break.
Since after the March Break, I did not have any of my calls or email
messages returned by her family. I felt like her parents had really
taken advantage of me. Not only that, but her school music teacher
knew that she was supposed to return to lessons after the March
Break. I have a fairly close connection to her school music teacher,
having conducted a couple of clarinet clinics at her school this year.
Let me give you a bit of background on the student. She had started
clarinet when she was 9 years old, in Grade 5, and came to private
lessons after just over two years in the school music program, soon
after beginning Grade 7, because her mom did not want her writing in
note names, and she wanted to audition for all-city ensembles in
January 2004. In less than 4 months, she went from writing in note
names to being one of my best readers. She still had a few minor
technique issues to work out, mostly in her right hand position. Well,
she made the all-city band with flying colours, as principal 2nd
clarinet; some of the grade 8 clarinetists at her school did not make
it. The clarinet audition excerpts were really too difficult for any
middle-school student without private lessons; I was
amazed at how well she was able to play both of them after only after
4 months of them.
Just before lessons had been put on hiatus, this student had mentioned to me that she was going to music camp and was thinking about attending an
arts-oriented high school, applying for both music and visual art. I
am well aware of the audition requirements for the high schools she
was considering attending, and know that there is almost no way she
would make it without private lessons. It is obvious to me that she is
serious about music, and is really interested in the clarinet, yet her
parents, especially her mom, seem to think that all she needed was a
few months of private lessons to catch up and excel; in fact, she is
currently the top Grade 7 music student at her school, and not the
only one: at least 3 of my private students are among the top students
in their grade.
I liked this student very much. I hated the idea of having to terminate
such a talented, dedicated young student, although I had to do so via a copy of a letter sent to both her parents and her school music teacher. I would have hated to see her waste her talent, yet realized
that her parents will have to learn their lesson the hard way.
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-05-10 19:22
Hi Meri,
I'm not sure what your part in this scenario is, are you the private teacher? Also, you do you know the student has "gone bad?" Also, what is the "fault" that has occurred? Also, why do the parents owe you an explanation?
Help me to understand this situation better, please.
HRL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-05-10 20:05
Many students exhibit a drop off of interest in their early teen years as they take notice of many new and exciting things (including the opposite sex).
Also, many parents have their kids spread too thin over a multitude of activities. They incorrectly think that over-achievement is always positive. (The "If some is good, more must be better" philosophy).
Those that have a good parental support system will allocate their time correctly and give the clarinet the necessary time needed to continually improve.
Others will put the clarinet 2nd or 3rd in their list of priorities and just play for their own enjoyment all through high school and beyond (not that there's anyhing wrong with that).
I think that we often forget that music should be a relaxing, enjoyable past time - especially if you are only 12.
Sometimes, the problem begins with too much praise from the teacher or parent, making the student believe that practicing may not be as necessary as it was to reach the level they now are at. Too much praise can be as detrimental as not enough praise. It is a delicate balance which the teacher must always be careful of.
If the student returns fine... if not, there will be others...GBK
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-05-11 05:01
GBK wrote: 'Many students exhibit a drop off of interest in their early teen years as they take notice of many new and exciting things (including the opposite sex)'
or the same sex...
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-05-11 09:21
I've had a number of outstanding students pull out of lessons into sports activities. I attribute it to several factors:
1 - No competitive pressure. They are terrific players and that is rare in this area.
2 - Sports have a strong lure. They provide more social benefits, more status, and parents view them as college financial aid. I have a sax student that is #1 in the District, but he's also an All-State wrestler.
3 - One the basics are firmly in place, much of the easy, rapid-progress stuff is exhausted. The point of diminishing returns is a barrier that many don't see profit in crossing. I have strict standards for basics and may have been to copious in my praise of those who have met them. GBK has definitely busted me on that one.
4 - Parents may see an imbalance coming. We recently had the #6 clarinet in the state unable to gain admission to a college because of failing grades. He is an outstanding and dedicated player who had no alternative but the military for his music education.
5 - Parents may have an idiotic game plan. Some play instruments and know just enough to be dangerous. Others may see lessons as simply a way to keep the kid busy. There's not much that you can do, but try and recognize the signs during the initial sale and either educate them or avoid them. They have the right to do what they want, but you have the right to save yourself the grief and send them to your competition.
They may not owe you an explanation, but I do think that the parents should have extended you the courtesy of notification that their child would not be returning to lessons. Sadly, many people will simply avoid you because they are embarassed over such a failure. I've recently saw a case with a colleague where the mother would neither talk to him nor return items that he had lent the student.
The only way to avoid this kind of thing is the ability to say "no." Make sure in negotiations that your expectations are clearly stated and that you collect the money up front. This is the best way to find out if something is in the air that you can't live with.
Allen Cole
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-05-11 11:59
Try to be positive... you have set down a solid foundation for a future skyscraper (or lovely little cottage in the wood)...
Retaining a student throughout their development will be rare.
Maintaining an interest without becoming emotionally involved is difficult.
Kudos to you for putting in the effort, as opposed to watching the clock.
PS - Raise your rates, to keep fewer (committed) students.
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-05-11 19:54
I'm really sorry to hear it about your dellimma.. It sounds like you obviously love to teacher.. it's nice to have teachers out there that are so openly passionate about what they do.
If she really loves it she will find her way back, even with the trouble the parents. Maybe not right away but eventually.
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Author: Zotje
Date: 2004-05-11 20:07
In reply to GBK about the early teens' lost of interest.
I can completely agree with that, as I had the same a few years ago (I'm almost 18 now). When I was about 13-14, I didn't like to play anymore, sometimes I even hated my clarinet. Luckily, things changed two years ago (probably started when I got an upgrade from my old Leblanc to a lovely Buffet RC). The thing was, I lost interest for everything.
But now I love the clarinet, somehow they even decided to put me on the 1st clarinet in the local harmony, and I'm planning to start bassclarinet in a good year's time.
(apologies for eventual language mistakes, I'm from Belgium)
*"My reed is filthy"
-"That's not filth, that's mould."
*"....eeeeeeew!!"
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2004-12-12 08:00
at last , someone from belgium on this board also
Now we are two :-)
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-12-12 14:05
LET US PLAY JEOPARDY
OK Alex, I will take the category of High School Social scene for $50
Q:who gets the prom date?
A: what is a cheerleader?
Right, next question.........
Q: primary nerdom
A: a non-rock musician
braaaap.....You must answer in the form of a question
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2004-12-12 14:43
This seems like an interesting situation, and maybe I can offer you a little insight, being a high school student myself.
I would be willing to venture that the parents are the #1 problem here. There have been many students who have quit our band program because their parents are sick of things like a) hearing their student blast away at 10:00 at night on their horn b) carting their kid around to concerts, pep band, and early morning marching band practice and c) they really honestly don't know how much their child likes to play their instrument or how dedicated they are to it.
There is also the flip-side, where parents are forcing their kids to stay in band, even though the student hates it, just because the parents think it will help them out with stuff like scholarships and college applications.
I really don't the above "jeopardy" question about "who gets prom date? cheerleaders!" because in our school, we rather despise our cheerleaders. Being involved in band isn't a "dorky" think at all, its just a fact.
Now, on to what i've really been wanting to talk about- spreading one's self too thin. I am a member of Band (i play soprano, bass, and alto cl), Jazz Ensemble (tenor sax), on the Golf team, Manager for the Football team, book keeper for the boys Basketball team, am in Knowledge Bowl, Writer's Guild, FFA, 4-H, NHS, and I own/show horses. I'm not spread to thin. I keep up "A's" and am taking two AP (advanced placement) classes this year for college credit. I may be busy, but I am fully dedicated to all of my activities. No, more is not better, but doing what you really love and doing it well is the best thing you can ever do.
My suggestion to you with this particular girl is to talk to HER. Not to her parents or teacher, they cannot and should not speak for her. If she really wants to continue taking private lessons, she will convince her parents to put her back in them. But if she doesn't want to, or doesn't have enough desire to take them again, she's probably a lost cause.
Just my 2 cents.
Beck
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-12-12 15:20
Bands are very important. Their presentations provide ample opportunity to go to the WC or the refreshment stand. Why doyathink one of the more famous band directors/composers was called "WC"Handy? (nyuk nyuk)
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-12 20:48
Once the student leaves the lessons it is highly unlikely that they will return.
I would talk with her parents and see just what the situation really is. If she does plan to go to an "arts" school then it would make sense to let them know that without regular lessons that probably won't happen, etc.
But students sometimes come and go and there's not a thing that you can do about it. It goes with the territory. We are "paid people" similar to a maid, lawn guy, tutor, therapist, etc. even though we don't want to readily admit that. Some clients will stay and some will go.
Don't take it to heart if you know you do a good job which I'm sure that you do!
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2004-12-13 16:03
BassClarinetGirl, You are an exceptional young lady and I salute you.
jmsa
Post Edited (2004-12-13 16:04)
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Author: Anon
Date: 2004-12-13 23:23
<Since after the March Break, I did not have any of my calls or email
messages returned by her family.>
Not to be rude but I don't think you even had to "terminate" her - it sounds like they terminated you.
I think we've all had students that quit that we couldn't believe were quitting. You can't make them all love it and you can't make them see it your way. I'm sure it wasn't your teaching, it just wasn't what they, as a family, decided to do.
All we can do is keep providing quality teaching...unfortunately, the other stuff isn't up to us.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-12-28 22:04
I thought most of this discussion board’s topics closed after a a couple of months or so…this was from several months back.
I have tried to communicate to her…no luck. I tried emails to her, online cards, letters mailed to her home address addressed to her, trying to conduct another clinic at her school which I would have also spoke to her privately. On the other hand, I’ve been really busy between rehearsals, performances, recording for a short animated film, and teaching. I’m at the point where I am being forced to interview potential students and parents, not only because of experiences such as this, but because fast-growing student numbers (generally students and parents who clearly have a sense of responsibility about lessons) and my limited lesson availability. (I am currently in the process of switching to the “swap list” for makeup lessons) I also only have a small window of times I could speak to her on the phone (her parents usually didn’t get home until about 6), but I am usually teaching or in a rehearsal at those times.
It seems that talented students often suffer the most because of one or both their parents. I really liked her, and sometimes wonder what music or studies we would have been working on had she stuck around. Our favourite connection between us was that I went to the same school when I was her age, and how three of the teachers I knew back when I was there are still there. I wonder if she has reverted back to writing in note names after going from that to reading sixteenth notes fluently in 4 months with me. (She had sixteenth notes in one of her all-city audition excerpts) I wonder if she has retained the corrections in terms of her embouchure (took too much mouthpiece and was very tight) and hand position. Sometimes I think, too, that I should have kept my mouth shut at that time. The letter was a way for me to help develop some sense of closure, to reinstate/enforce my lesson policies (at least they had already paid for the lessons when they were supposed to return), and to let them know that I had enjoyed working with Rebecca.
Though some parents of music students should think a bit before they do something stupid such as this, because chances are, word will get around. Actually, the problem was her mom, (her dad was great!), which, as I found out through her school music teacher, has also contributed to problems with her and band. I know getting into the all-city band this year will be a lot tougher than in previous years (last year, she was only one of three clarinetists taking private lessons (two of those were studying with me), the other one of my students was principal clarinet (but had been studying privately for over two years); the last privately-taught student was principal 3rd; this year, I know there are at least 5 clarinetists who are taking private lessons who are auditioning for that band, and I’m teaching 4 of them, and this band only takes 10-12 clarinetists of the 25-30 who audition.
Then neither she nor her parents know about the level of solo pieces, studies, and scales required for the arts high schools she was thinking about attending, which I will be working on with one student who is currently in Grade 7 and is thinking about going to one in Grade 9. (However, this family is completely serious about their children’s musical education; she also has taken piano lessons for 5 years, and is playing solidly at an upper intermediate level.)
Let her and her parents learn the hard way...
Meri
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-12-28 22:28
Perhaps you need to step back - I know if some instructor started doing what you're doing I'd be mighty upset and would be tempted to do something drastic. You have no right to pester a minor just because you think that you know better than the parents.
You only are with the student an hour or so a week; the parents are with them every day and probably know a heck of a lot more about the situation than you ever will.
Those parents are most probably not near as "stupid" as you think they are.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-12-29 00:49
Again, I second what Mark says. I'm a music teacher as well, but also a parent of a 15 year old and a 12 year old. No matter "who" you think they are, they will surprise you. My advice is to let this go. You need to move on. Many children drop instrumental study at this age, much to our chagrin and frustration, including my daughter who was a wonderful french horn player. If they really are musical, they will express that in some way, at some point, when they are ready.
Sue
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-29 05:19
I think that you have some right moves and some wrong ones here, Meri.
Most of the wrong moves have already been discussed, so let me start with what seems right:
First and foremost, I think that you're moving in the right direction by interviewing customers prior to engaging the lessons. I have found that an hour invested on the phone helps the parents and I get to know each other, and gives both parties a chance to see if a red light starts blinking.
I also hand out printed info on lesson policies, and an FAQ to parents of all new students. I put extra emphasis on getting to talk with parents, because it is THEY who are my customers. Their child sees me only by their permission, and it's important that they have access to as much info about me as possible and have plenty of opportunity to ask questions.
You may be correct in thinking that they are clueless about music lessons (most will readily admit that) but you are mistaken if you think they're clueless about their child's upbringing in general. A few, maybe, but not most. If either parent senses these feelings from you, you're pretty much on a collision course from that point.
Also note this about parents who disappear and don't communicate. In many cases, people will not want to face you if they have breached a promise, fail to return borrowed materials, or have reasons for termination (not necesssarily related to you) that they don't wish to share. I remember an excellent clarinetist a few years ago who was #6 in the state, but whose grades were so poor that he was denied all college admissions, and nearly denied his high school diploma.
Here's what I would term wrong:
1 - Initiating post-lesson communication with the child. Your own description of your attempts sounds a lot like stalking. Read your post over and consider that. If parents won't talk to you, trying to reach the child could be major trouble--particularly if you are timing your calls to avoid interception by the parents.
2 - Feeling that your policies have been violated. I think that the failure to show up or to notify you of termination may be impolite, but you tell us that they were paid up up to date. Have your business terms not been fulfilled?
3 - Overestimating the urgency of the situation. I reread your original post and it says that this kid is 12, and is also interested in visual arts. No matter what she's up for now, she could spin her wheels completely for 3 or 4 years and still have time to get into a good college and eventually win a symphony seat.
If you have more customers than you can take, then take your consolation in that. Make your business terms clear, and collect tuition up front. Be honest about what you expect from the student. This alone will weed out your most potentially troublesome customers. As far as making things go the way you want, a lot will come with time and experience--which will also teach you that you can't win them all. Enjoy what you have.
Allen Cole
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-12-29 16:09
I *have* given up on her and her parents, too busy with other students, rehearsals, and performances. I had to decline the clinic at her school, due to scheduling issues with rehearsals and other students lessons. Actually I will not do a clinic at her school until she finishes Grade 8 (her school is a 7/8 school).
Odd, too, my lesson fees are somewhat higher now than they were then, but my customers are much more respectful of the private music teaching business. And some people don't care about what your policies are, they just try to get away with what they can. (Now I have the option of getting rid of such students and parents, especially when you get inquiries about lessons almost every week, with most being serious). The ones that respect you and your business don't really need a policy, and the ones that don't respect your business don't really care, my policies and terms were discussed at the very first lesson, and they received a copy of them.
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
Post Edited (2004-12-29 22:03)
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Author: Mandy's Mom
Date: 2004-12-29 16:26
Allen, Excellent advice.
I am a mom with very limited piano background, so music is not familiar turf for me. I try very hard to be fair to my child's teacher, but sometimes music is not our first priority, so I can understand both sides.
For instance, my daughter plays serious soccer, so sometimes we miss her lesson because of a game or tournament. I make a practice to 1) notify the teacher in advance and 2) pay the teacher for the lesson regardless of our attendance. By doing these two things I feel that I am making it so the only person who suffers is my kid (who won't progress as much because of the missed lesson).
But I feel that as long as I keep the teacher whole (no monetary or time cost to him) it is my business if we miss here and there.
We discuss this before we begin with a teacher (we have only had two in four years). So that if this in unacceptable to him, he can encourage us to go elsewhere.
I would expect a teacher to let me know if he had special requirements for his student. Things I would expect to know about would be required recitals, expectations conerning entering competitions, attending summer programs, flexibility with lesson makeups...
This has worked for us so far.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-30 05:48
Well, my hat's off to you for keeping the teacher from suffering for the absence. There are a lot of people who are out to get away with whatever they can, and with no consideration for problems caused. Given your level of understanding in this area, I wonder if you are self-employed?
Allen Cole
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Author: bawa
Date: 2004-12-30 10:37
Meri;
From your original and renewed post it seemed that you wanted to share your experience with us. I think a lot of sound advice has been given by fellow teachers, musicians and parents about your part in this, and how to deal with it. From your reply it seems to be that you still blame the parents (or the mom) for everything.
As a parent i would be definitely very put off by your attitude. As many have pointed out, you really don't know the true situation of any family, least of all from only a lesson a week.
My children study music in a music school, so this kind of situation doesn't arise as much. But if a teacher did that to a student who has decided to leave, I think they would be in big trouble (we are talking about minor). Many students/parents do give up on the music, regardless of ability, and the onlt thing the school can do is warn that the fees have to paid for the entire year regardless of attendence...and there is not much more you can force people to do.
And some students do come back; I know of one who was good at the violin, but suffering badly in her grades, the parents took her out for a couple of years, but now she is back as she has now matured enough to deal with both the schoolwork and music school work. her teacher was undoubtedly disappointed, but it really worked for the child, and "parents" certainly knew best!!
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Author: Jamies
Date: 2004-12-30 15:46
As a student, if my ex music teacher did all that letter writing and emailing I'd be a little bit scared. I also go to an arts high school. The only people who stay in the program are the ones who really enjoy and really want to be there. The ones who don't want to be there but stay suffer.
So don't worry about wether or not she makes it in because its her choice.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-12-30 22:05
Bawa: Would I want her back even if she wanted to come back? No, at least not any more, if only because of her mom. Now, if the situation, for example, was that she was not living with her mom anymore, then it might be different--assuming I had the space that is.
Some people, too, need to learn things the hard way--and even then some people never seem to learn how to deal with private music teachers. (I know some piano teachers who've had to put up with a lot of stupidity (or get rid of the student) on the part of the student's parents. So I'm not alone. And I don't tolerate it anymore. I heard one story from a piano teacher of one parent who has been through 5 different piano teachers in six months, because they are looking for someone with really low fees, won't do ear training, will accept weekly payment, and will include books. (and the last one is probably keeping them because he's desperate for students.)
Perhaps I was obsessing about the situation back then because it seemed like everything was going wrong back then (dad being ill, insufficient students, helping my parents out financially because of mom's disability benefits being cut off, one really awful high school student (who has long since been kicked out) not getting paid on time or at all from my non-music job...no wonder I was getting compulsive), combined with the added demands of preparing for auditions. But, the original post was partly meant it as a way of watching out for one of the worst kinds of music parents.
Meri
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-30 22:13
[ Lots of advice has been offered. This thread has now come full circle and is closed - GBK ]
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