 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-15 06:56
Has anyone here had experience with the $300.00 Chinese Rosewood Clarinets that are sold regularly on the internet sale sites ? I once read a convincing article about Chinese clarinets by a well qualified American working in China. He stated that in the Chinese domestic marketplace you would pay about $400.00 US for for an intermediate student clarinet that was on par with anything outside of China.You would also spend about about $800.00 US for a professional clarinet on par with mass production instruments outside of China.Unfortunately he had no time or interest to investigate Chinese mail order clarinets.
Local repair techs have told me that local owners claim they are not bad and not great. On the positive side none have been brought in for repair.
Visually speaking they are gorgeous.They sit on my to buy some day list, unless I run into covincing arguments that they are rubbish.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-10-15 07:56
I've spoken to several professional techs about these. Opinions seem to be mixed, a couple said that they didn't like working on them because there are no spares available and that the quality varies enormously from instrument to instrument. One said he just didn't work on them. When the Chinese first started to produce clarinets the tuning was frequently awful, but that aspect seems to have improved.
A while back I sorted out some bent keywork on a Chinese clarinet bought from Aldi. The keywork was so soft that it was a bit like a bendy toy, but the tuning was excellent. Side-by-side with a Yamaha C100 I really couldn't see much difference physically. Personally I avoid them, likewise those from India.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-10-15 09:28
I've seen several under a few different names (and many more that seems about the same but not made of rosewood).
Generally they seem not so good but not completely awful. They have a bunch of "gizmos" (the new fashion barrels, etc.) but none that I've seen so far was as good as a basic student Yamaha, for example. Significantly less accurate in many ways.
I don't really understand the "no spares" problem. I don't need spare parts so often and getting ones from other (regular and known) manufacturers isn't that easy either. The only difference is maybe pivot screws, which I stock many for many different models. One usually fits or can be modified to fit. I consider this whole thing a non-issue. I guess it's different if you constantly see instruments with missing parts and have a supplier of those parts near you.
Re soft or hard keys, on the ones I've seen keys varies from very soft to very hard and/or springy. Sometimes on the same clarinet. The metal was the same, but e.g. some parts were much too thick, with a springy alloy, making it very hard to adjust. Other parts bent with very little force.
I wouldn't buy one, but I also don't think they look very nice.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-15 13:51
I would say to let go of the visual aesthetic in this case.
There was a student who had $300ish Chinese instrument that he was very proud of because it was wood, not plastic. He was horribly flat and in a pinch to get him in tune I lent him a 54mm barrel meant for a Yamaha CSG (at least 10mm shorter than any standard Boehm barrel). Oddly that fixed his problem without pulling out much at all! I purchased a $10 Chinese barrel online that was.....believe it or not....54mm long and just gave it to him.
Don't set yourself up that way. $400 will get you a decent old Vito or Bundy that will play rings around those things if that's your max budget.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2018-10-15 15:12)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-10-15 16:12
I've only worked on one with a brand name that's been around for a while. It didn't play in tune. It wasn't especially well made but was usable. Rosewood has more problems than African Blackwood in terms of leaks at the tone holes due to grain and rough edges.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2018-10-15 16:14)
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-15 19:03
At present I own about a dozen clarinets. If I attempt to play more than two of them [n the same day I gat muddled such that I cannot play any of them. Given that I do not enjoy my Vito, Bundy and Grenadilla Jupiter I have decided to sell them. Selling any one of them would allow me to buy one of the Chinese Rosewoods. Among my many clarinets is a $99.00 Canadian Chinese Academy brand clarinet.Any tone in isolation sounds good to me but as you play from top to bottom it has an irritating loss of overtone . That is a common problem reported for the products of that brand.My experience with the Academy has been a major deterrent. against low cost Chinese Rosewood.
The other major deterrant is you do not know what you are getting in a mail order purchase. Every clarinet has its own distinctive character and voice. The one you get may not please you while the next guy may have goten exactly what you desired.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-15 19:49
Sell one of the clarinets and get a really good re-padding and overhaul on the Vito.
Your sound is mainly determined by correct approach to using air. If you have a decent reed and mouthpiece, your sound should be already about 90% there. The clarinet (and its associated quality) adds more surety of intonation and that last bit of sound quality.
If you need to order a horn and can bump up the budget I might suggest a Ridenour. Ok, yes it is made in.........China, but it is designed and finished by Ridenour. They are consistently good horns and don't cost an arm and a leg ($1000 or $2000, depending on the model).
Save the $300 you would have spent on a clarinet that will just be a major disappointment and put it toward one that will work properly.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2018-10-16 23:37
What Paul said: Get your Vito in top condition first before proceeding.
Anybody serious enough about clarinet playing to investigate a wooden instrument should instinctively realize that they will need a good non-wooden instrument at the ready for those many times when the playing environment isn't safe for a wooden clarinet.
I have had my plastic Yamaha YCL-20 and B&H 1-10 overhauled with cork pads on the normally-closed upper joint keys. It added a nice touch of extra resonance--overtones, if you will--to the sound, and both instruments speak more easily than they did when fitted with conventional pads throughout.
I just don't understand the fascination with inexpensive Chinese clarinets. There are many, many vintage wooden Signet, Normandy, and Noblet clarinets in sound, repairable condition that can be easily found for under US$100. These are proven instruments that have no major problems, and most any technician will be glad to service them. You do get your clarinets serviced at least once every year, don't you?
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-17 03:38
I do own a plastic Jupiter that I am very fond of. Plastic clarinets are admirably consistant in their reponse to household environmental conditions. Here in northern Canada household atmospheric conditions wildly fluctuate.Wood is so responsive to those conditions that my wood clarinets often seem like total strangers to me. On some days their overtones are radically different from hour to hour ,especially in winter as forced air furnaces kick in and humidifiers fail to keep up.
I do most of my own servicing. The Vito has been especially frustrating. On the two occasions I took it into the repair shop it behaved perfectly and passed inspection. At home though it is almost always somewhere between half and totally dead due to leakage. The repair shop suggested that I try changing out corks and seals from the top down until the problem is eliminated since they couldn't find anything wrong with it. When it did work I played it head to head against another Vito. They both sounded the same to me.I have considered the possibility that both Vitos may have had a very minor identical upper leakage that affected their overtones. In regards to the Vito I have given up and conceded failure. Too much time spent with too few results as compared to my other dozen clarinets.
Once my full retirement benefits begin I plan to do a lot of internet vintage clarinet buying and restoration.
The cheap Rosewood appeals to me because it is new and Rosewood.I have never had a new instrument and probably never will have one over $1000.00. If it was a disappointment to play it would at least make an attractive ornament while I experimented with the barrels and bell on my other instruments.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-10-17 06:04
Why not get a Pan American "Violin Finish" clarinet? That way you could have the looks and still have a halfway decent instrument with good resale value.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-17 15:09
The Pan Am will definitely be added to my " hope to find" list. It is visually striking and unique in construction. Both of those factors make it desrable as a collector piece.
I think i finally figured out what is wrong with my Vito Clarinet. It was purchased at a thrift store for $20.00. At the time it was covered with whitish specks everywhere and had disintegrating corks.. It appeared that the previous owner had used several tablespoons of glue to bind the case interior lid in place and closed the case with the clarinet inside to reinforce the bonding. I am now considering the possibility that my restoration work and all other seals were destroyed by chemical fumes from the botched glûeing. Although they look good they may be structurally compromised leading to their erratic behaviour.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-10-17 18:32
Glue fumes will not affect playability in any way. What's more likely is a leak caused by a spring. This often happens with the A key but can happen with any other key that is normally held closed. What happens is that the key works fine when you let it snap closed, but when you close the key gently it will not close all the way.
Try this. Play the instrument until you get to a point where it will not play correctly. Then carefully perform a suction test to check for leaks.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-10-18 16:33
Suction tests are unreliable because they will pull the pad down on to the tone hole. A weak spring is a possible problem. Or a key that is so sloppy that it doesn't always land in the same position. Ring heights (too high or too low) is another possibility.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-18 17:05
I have to express my support for the negative pressure test. It is perhaps the most refined method to expose the tiniest leaks. Ideally a clarinet joint should seal just like the barrel. Of course the positive pressure test should be used in conjunction as check. However slow leaks aren't as easy to detect when blowing out.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-18 19:46
I have always wondered how to perform a vacuum test. I just tested my Jupiter hybrid frankenet by placing a piece of plastic bag between the bell and bottom joint. I sucked through the mouthpiece until my lungs ached. It seems my improvised frankenet is rock solid despite the bulletin board corks I installed.The Vito also had bulletin board cork replacements. My Armstrong and Artley also have them.They all play well.
In the past I have retorqued the Vito springs . I have also cleaned and softened the pads by applying olive oil to cigarette paper which is gently worked between the pad and clarinet with the keys closed.Visibly damaged pads have been replaced. The only items I don't remember tinkerimg with are the metal tube inserts.
At present the Vito is lost in storage .When I find it I will attempt vacuum testing from the top down.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2018-10-18 20:12
Many people have made important points here. You are certainly taking a chance on an unknown instrument. There is a reason why these instruments are $300 and not $3000. It is not all labor costs. They have to be using cheaper materials and workmanship.
I always recall the old saying that you get what you pay for.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2018-10-18 20:30
It also bears mentioning that rosewood, even when properly aged and treated, is less stable than grenadilla.
You've already pointed out that your wooden instruments--presumably grenadilla--frustrate you with their instability. It's only going to be worse with rosewood.
If they took some shortcuts preparing the rosewood for use, you could end up with a warped and/or seriously cracked clarinet in very short order.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-18 21:43
Ok.......sorry, I assumed knowledge of the negative and positive pressure tests.
Take the bottom joint by itself, holding it in your right hand (as if you were playing it) and engage the "E/B" paddle key. Then you cover the bottom of joint with the heel of your left hand. Place your lips over the top end and blow into it to execute positive pressure. You should feel resistance and NOT hear any hissing of air leaking. At some point the "Ab/Eb" pad will blow open. That's fine, it will. It is worth noting that the spring tension of this key should be a hair more resistant than what you might want compared to the other three since you want the pad to resist opening (slightly but deleteriously) while playing (it can if the tension is too light and the result is that you lose a LOT of resonance).
The negative pressure test is of course taking sips of air out of the horn in the same manner. If you've ever done a similar execution with a coke bottle and feel your lips sinking into the top......it's the same thing. You should feel the suction holding. And when you release the bottom (or top, or a finger), you should hear a "pop."
Do the same operation to the top joint to check for leaks.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-10-18 22:19
Wait, did you just say you put olive oil on the pads?
That's really bad for them. If you're doing this to the Vito then that could be the reason there are problems. You can wax leather pads but you really shouldn't be using any kind of liquid on any type of pad.
Also it's not always the strength of the spring that's the issue. Sometimes springs dig into the wood causing them to stop just shy of closing the key. This is why some clarinets have small metal plates below the flat springs.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-19 01:50
Prior to discovering clarinets I played flutes. My first flutes were disfunctional when I acquired them . I learned to service them through internet research. One day I came across an indepth article about flute pad preservation and restoration written by a professional orchestra member. He claimed to obtain 8 to 10 years of life from his pads through the cigarette paper and olive oil method while some of his mocking peers were taking their instruments into the repair shop every 3 to 6 months for pad problems. Ever since then I have used that method for all my flute and clarinet pad restoration and cleaning. Pads that don't respond to that method are replaced.
Either my Armstrong or Artley had a wide deep cavity with ridges that bound the spring to open key positions.After filing out the ridges with a precision file the spring was too short to function within the now smooth cavity. I replaced the spring with one I made from a piece of wind up car spring. That spring kept losing its tension. After that my repair shop sold me 4 extra long straight springs to resolve the problem.I broke the first 3 but succeded in bending the 4th to the right shape with a loop on the end to prevent gouging. It has worked well ever since. On a later clarinet with the same problem I resolved the issue by simply fabricating a runner from a toy car spring for the spring to act against. It is much cheaper to fabricate a runner than travel to the repair shop to buy springs at $4.00 each.
To be honest I enjoy jerry mongering broken clarinets as much as I do playing them.
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Author: xiao yu
Date: 2018-10-19 08:00
I am chinese ,and I know there are so many OEM factory for clarinet and other instrument . They have good tech enough to reach the foreign company's request.And they also have to make low price instrument to compete market ,with pore quality is hard to avoid. They also made fine quality instrument but with higher price in chinese market with they own brand.
Here is a chinese plastic clarinet review by Phil
http://www.clarinetpages.net/hard-rubber/chinese-hard-rubber/kenny-2017
As you can see ,the quality of chinese clarinet improved a lot.Because it was made by a OEM factory with same produce line as a famous clarinet brand. But only half price.
But there are a lot of small family workshop also make clarinet. They bought body from one workshop, the keys from second workshop, the case from third workshop, etc..All they do is assemble. So you will found a lot of chinese clarinet look the same, sound the same with different brand. Only big factory can make key. Buffet style is most, made by one factory. Sold to many small workshop.
=======================
Kenny clarinet studio from China.
Lyrique libertas, ridenour hw mp,legere euro cut reeds.
Post Edited (2018-10-19 20:01)
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-19 18:54
At the heart of this issue are the Chinese oem manufacturers that are producing both finished products and components for many of the worlds most respected brands. Between contracts from major importers their products would be sold to smaller distributors and the local domestic market. I believe there is a real probability that these clarinets are produced by an oem manufacturer that is producing world class products for major brand names.
I view this prospective purchase from my experience with light electric vehicles. I own two $200.00 electric pocket motorcycles , a $1500.00 no name all terrain-mobility scooter and an $8500.00 major brand mobility scooter.When you strip away the fibreglass bodies you find that all of the major electric components come from the same super manufacturers. If I purchase a replacement motor for my high end scooter through the major brand distributor it will cost about $1200.00.Alternatively I can search the motor brand name and part number online and buy the same motor for as little as $180.00 from a major brand all terrain vehicle parts distributor.Better yet I can buy it from a no name chinese distributor for $80.00.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-10-19 21:23
I have no doubt that at least some Chinese companies can make good parts and good clarinets. But right now most of what I see is not well made and/or have tuning problems. The Royal clarinet is a fairly well made clarinet, but it is not cheap. And now it is assembled in the US.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-19 23:14
I think the Chinese fabrication issue falls completely upon economic realities. Well made ones such as Uebel, Ridenour, Cannonball, and Royal have better construction and the manufacturer takes the necessary time to ensure better tuning and response (time costs money). Then you have the plethora of inexpensively made products that come from China that are not well made at all. I don't really see an example though where a Brand name allows for a higher price on the same gear without a Brand that has a lower selling price........yet.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2018-10-24 20:11
vaccuum test
Don't perform this test too hard or too long.
You can stretch the pad skin itself and separate it from the felt if using skin pads. I have pictures somewhere of this occurring. Then you may get buzzing while playing.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-10-24 20:34
After performing my first proper vacuum test on my Jupiter JCL 731 I noticed a small loose flap on the uppermost trill pads interior portion. At the time I wondered if I might have done that by sucking too hard. Fearing that possibility I have chosen not to vacuum test my working clarinets.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-10-24 21:14
Well that may actually have been the case but not because that was an incorrect operation but because the bladder was going to fail anyway. I just had this happen on a used Bundy I just bought. There was no question that those pads had to be replaced. The bladder covering becomes brittle with age and that in itself prevents the "seat" from sealing properly.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Eric Pao
Date: 2018-11-10 15:46
I really purchased the $300 Chinese rosewood clarinet recently. I have an 30 yrs old Buffer RC and ever played it for several years. My daughter starts her middle school this year. Teachers ask them to buy $1200 Buffet or Yamaha clarinet for the band. I gave my daughter the Buffet RC to save the expense. However, I was thinking to buy a cheap clarinet to play with her. I thought she would make a big progress if I do that.
Except my RC, I had another “king” brand clarinet from France. The king clarinet was poorly manufactured and hardly played compared. I decided to give it up.
I started to search the inexpensive clarinets on amazon and eBay. First, I skipped any plastic clarinet at the range $100. Finally, I bought the rosewood clarinet just depending on 2 positive reviews on amazon and lot photos on Taobao.
The shipping was very fast. 3 days shipping from China to Houston.
I did not use any device to test every pitch of the new instrument. I played it with my daughter. The sound of the rosewood clarinet is incredibly amazing. The high tone is bright and clear, but not harsh. I would say the sound like a young girl. I did not know the quality of the included mouthpiece. I use my old mouthpiece and Rico reed to do the test. And, the clarinet is very easy to play in all tones. For the price, I am very satisfied.
However, there are few issues on the clarinet. The keys are rigid, assembled well and very beautiful. When you take a close look, the polish is just acceptanle. Most welding parts are acceptable, but several welding ends are kind of sharp. I use a sandpaper to solve the problem.
The A key is too high to obstruct my left index finger when playing Fa to La. The A key is really a big problem. Finally, I unscrew the A key and bend it to fit my personal habit. I used sandpaper to polish its back side and cut part cork beneath it. Even though A key is very rigid, I could bend it little to fix the problem. Now, I am joyful to play the new rosewood clarinet as fast as I was used to be.
Chinese manufactured products is cheap and always have some minor issues. You have to fix them yourself. If could, they would be great with less expense.
The rosewood clarinet sounds beyond my expectation. If you are going to solve the problems I mentioned, I really recommend it for its good looking and satisfied sound. You may ask me why not buying an used clarinet. First, I could accept an used violin.. , but not any used clarinet. And the labor cost is very high, I would not spend money to replace leather pads .. on an used and cheap clarinet when I get them.
As I knew, the CNC is very popular in Chinese manufacture. Actually, Chinese would partly copy the best clarinets in the world. Because of benefits from modern CNC and lots new tools, they are easily to manufacture not bad clarinet. I ever talked to the seller to discuss the clarinets. He told me 70％ clarinets are manufactured in China, and 80％ of Chinese clarinets are from He-Be province. He said African ebony is better than rosewood clarinet at the similar price. There is big Chinese company in Africa to process the ebony for all the clarinets in He-Be. He guarantee the source of ebony is as same as Buffet. However, Buffet invests more processing on the woods before making clarinets. In my personal opinion, I think I am glad to buy a Chinese clarinet less than $400-$500 for fun. More than $500, I would like to consider others.
Post Edited (2018-11-11 07:57)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-11-10 16:39
My main issue with the very inexpensive is NOT general quality of build as an inert object, but rather intonation from note to note within a scale.
How constant is the pitch with a tuner? By that I mean, once you tune one note (most band members tune to concert Bb, the written third space C), do the rest of the notes of the scale fall reasonably close to center of pitch with the tuner? Chances are some notes are flatter, some notes are sharper, and fixing one problem causes other notes to be worse..........a problem that ultimately cannot be fixed at all.
Of course if that is NOT the case, then I would not judge inexpensive horns harshly.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-11 21:14
After reading and hearing so many stories of peoples struggles with new brand name clarinets I am firmly sold on the idea of buying a cheap Chinese Rosewood Clarinet. Challenging and overcoming difficulties could be quite satisfying since I enjoy tampering with disfunctional old blown out clarinets.The prospect of having to alter a clarinet that costs me thousands of dollars holds no appeal to me. The expendable cost of a cheap clarinet removes all fear of drilling and undercutting as a learning experience if necessary.
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Author: Eric Pao
Date: 2018-11-12 09:54
It is not bad to buy the rosewood clarinet. Ignoring the issues I mentioned, you can play the clarinet without any problem when getting it. After owning the rosewood one, I have the confidence to buy another for our family. I am going to buy the African ebony one at the price $400. The seller advise me, I should choose ebony clarinet rather than rosewood one at similar price range.
I have ever reviewed the keywork on the $400 clarinet. The keywork is much better than $300 products. I hate to use “copy Buffet” without any evidence. However, I asked the seller to take lot photos of keywork for me. I carefully compare the $400 with my old Buffet RC. The keys on $400 are definitely a much better copy than $300 clarinet. As I mentioned the A key on $300 is welded from two parts. On $400, the A key is fabricated by one well polished part just like Buffet.
Maybe I can make a conclusion.
Under $100 is plastic body and cheap keywork.
$200 is poor wooden body and standard keywork.
$300 is better wooden body and standard keywork
$400 is better wooden body and better keywork
more than $500 I am not sure if it is worthy. For me, it would be a higher risk I can take.
Chinese company manufactures clarinets, but not actually design them. They have mature mass production experience in CNC. I do believe they could learn or copy the acoustic layout from some best clarinets to get not bad result on those inexpensive products. Beyond my expectation, I was really astonished to hearing the $300 rosewood clarinet first time. However, I compared the metal parts with Buffet. Buffet really did a good job in every parts ( keys is shaped elegantly and polished beautifully). Buffet one is art, Chinese one is just a tool.
To be a professional player, he should buy famous branded one to encourage designers effort. For those beginners and amateur, Chinese clarinet could be a good toy to indulge in the beautiful clarinet world.
At last, learning experience is quite interesting and necessary. I would not invest in a cheapest clarinet like $100 one to torture myself. $300-$400 clarinets have the good potential to be polished. Lack of local service, I do not recommend the Chinese clarinet more than $500.
Post Edited (2018-11-13 11:53)
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