 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-09-16 11:57
This is a bit difficult to explain without you seeing the clarinet, but I'd like your opinions as to whether it's something I could fix myself, or if it needs to go to a technician.
I have a 1929 Selmer K series, and it plays very well apart from one thing - it doesn't play the 'long' Eb and clarion Bb (with RH first finger) properly.
There is a bit of metal (this is where you really need to see it!) sticking out from the rod and resting over the closed key which is the next one down from the LH first-finger hole. This bit of metal has an adjusting screw in it. None of my other clarinets has anything on that key, so I've nothing to compare it with.
I've been experimenting, and if I screw the adjuster down a little way, the long Eb and the higher Bb both come out beautifully - but it then messes up most of the other notes! I reasoned that there must be an optimum setting where all the notes would be OK, but it seems that I can only have one option or the other. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Is there anything else I can try before I give up and take it to be seen to? ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Joanna Brown
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-16 12:31
Possibly there is a missing piece of cork which finishes the adjustment?? (ofter there is as it also acts as a silencer)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-09-16 21:18
This mechanism has been around for a long time, Joanna (at least since 1929, obviously); it just never became very popular. It adjusts the F/C pad cup to close simultaneously with the B/E - right pinky key or left pinky spatula. I believe the intention was to make further fine tuning, after the initial crow foot adjustment, easier for the average not too technically minded player. It's a good concept but, as with any such adjustments, you must make sure your pads are seating quite well first. Otherwise, tinkering efforts will end in frustration.
Therefore, my suggestion is that you check, or ask a tech to check, that your pads are okay and seating properly. Then you can adjust that lower combination yourself any time the need arises.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-09-16 21:45
Isn't this the bridge key adjustment being asked about? As far as I can visualize, its purpose in cl life is to permit the very useful 1 and 1 fingering for Eb/Bb, and must not be too tight or loose to permit their use, thereby being somewhat similar to the F/C//E/B coordination. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-09-16 23:17
Don -
If I understand Joanna correctly, this adjustment design has nothing to do with the bridge mechanism.
You've probably seen this particular adjustment arm on metal clarinets. For whatever reason it seems, in my experience anyway, to have been much more popular on metals than on wood or plastic clarinets. It's function is very similar to the A key adjustment screw. The arm extends from the E/B rod over the top of the C/F pad cup. There's a flute-like adjustment screw at the end of the arm that will push down or let up the C/F pad cup to make the E(Bb) - C(F) combination close simultaneously. It may also be a throwback to/from the Albert system 'patent C# mechanism' for all I know. The screw is possibly a little more accurate than trial and success with the crow foot - although I don't really find much that much difference. Maybe that's why it isn't a present day standard keywork design.
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-09-17 00:21
If a regulation problem cannot be solved quite easily with an adjusting screw, when such a screw is provided, then the problem is almost certainly not one of regulation.
The problem is likely to be a either a pad (or 2) not closing flat on a tone hole, or a sloppy pivot, etc...
Many plyers seem to think that because an adjusting screw is provided, all problems should be solvable by turning the screw. There are many problems that have nothing to do with a regulating screw.
Post Edited (2004-09-17 00:25)
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-09-17 05:16
Thanks for your replies, folks! I think I'd better take it for a check-up - I'm going into central London tomorrow anyway, so I'll pop in to Howarths and ask them about it. I just hope it won't cost too much to fix!
Joanna Brown
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-09-17 06:20
first thing
Joanna is most certainly talking about a screw adjusting the conncection between the upper and lower rings, only not "at the bridge" but "at the Eflat/Bflat key"..... i'm sure i've seen this on bass clarinets and some full boehm horns.
she is quite clearly NOT writing about a screw adjusting the f/c key on the lower joint. um, yeah.
this is moot, as she is taking it to Howarth and they can work it all out, but i would suspect that when she says that adjusting this screw "messes up all the other notes" she either means that she has turned the screw too far, so that the right hand rings and tone hole can't close..... OR there is not enough travel in the "top hole on the lower joint" and when she adjusts the screw there is not enough venting for e/b.... most likely the former.
sometimes (as i'm sure Gordon has encountered) adjusting screws don't stay in place.... quite how they can move on their own i don't know, but it happens, really. Maybe this is complicating the matter.
good luck JB,
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-09-17 12:12
I did not say that adjusting screws don't stay in place. They move by themselves but rarely, only if they are VERY loose, and that can easily be corrected with an appropriate thread locking compound, such as Loctite 222. Other issues are usually responsible for adjusting screws SEEMING to be unstable, for example squishy silencing corks (or leather) beneath adjusting screws, or sloppy pivots......
I said that there are many other things involved with adjustment, that DON'T involve adjusting screws, and gave two examples.
An irony is that adjusting screws are sometimes provided for adjustments that can very easily be carried out by other means. This creates an illusion that all the OTHER adjustments, which are typically a lot more difficult, do not exist.
I agree that the adjusting screw mentioned must be to do with interlinked ring keys as with full Boehm.
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-09-17 14:10
It's got the articulated C#/G#. Is it something to do with that then? It didn't seem to be when I was fiddling about, but perhaps I didn't observe some vital connection point closely enough!
Joanna Brown
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-09-17 14:27
I belive you're RITE, Ron B, likely it is the FORK Eb/Bb adj. screw on the 7 ring cls [my Dyn 2 and ?all Full Boehms? ] which when mal-adjusted [a bit of cork gone?] sure interferes. A bit of definition as to location would have "cured" our guesswork !! On a 1929 Buffet, could this be a Doughnut key structure ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-09-17 19:06
It's not a Buffet, it's a Selmer!
Sorry if my description was unclear - I did say the screw was just below the first LH finger-hole. I bet if you were all here and could see it, you could tell me what was wrong straight away!
Joanna Brown
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-09-17 19:33
Rite you are, Jo, old folks [me in particular] get things mixed up, I should follow ny own advice " engage brain before opening mouth [and posting}". I have a slightly older SELMER full Boehm [via ser #] which has the adj . screw right where you describe, on the small FORK Eb/Bb "tuning pad" which, if not set precisely [a small piece of cork under the screw will help] , will raise cane [cain?] with the adjacent note's playability. I keep a small screwdriver in all cases [4-5] where I have the 7 th ring fork, its usually on F B's or "half-full Boehms" like Pete F's favorite cls, for adjustment as needed. I play mine while adjusting until all sounds OK. Try it! Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-09-17 20:05
I too vote for the missing buffer cork strip on the fork Eb/Bb mechanism. Had the same thing go out once after an overhaul on my full Boehm; the technician hadn't done the contact adhesive correctly on that one item. Once the strip was replaced, all was klink blim (as we used to say in Prussia).
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-09-17 22:37
In my experience the only adjusting screw that has persisted is the A/Ab one...sometimes metal sometimes "nylon". I have a couple older horns that don't have it but all the "newer' ones seem to have one. I often wonder why this particular adjustment has proved useful.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-09-17 23:34
True BobD, on the usual 17/6[rings] cl. The 7th ring "ring finger L H" for the fork fingering requires a precise closing action [as do several other adjustments], while I like the A/G# with a bit of "slop". Comments, Gordon et al ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-09-18 00:33
The throat G#/A is a completely different situation because the adjustment has nothing to do with synchronising the CLOSING of two pads.
<<[a small piece of cork under the screw will help]>>
My analysis is very different:
Ideally there should be no soft materials involved in any linkages affecting the synchronising of pad closure. We are looking for motion to be transfered with very high precision, and no motion lost during its transfer.
Cork/leather/other beneath such an adjusting screw tends to gradually crush, or even be cut by the screw, making the adjustment unreliable. It most certainly does not make the screw do its job of adjustment better.
If there is a problem with the TRAVEL of the screw, then this should be corrected with a longer screw, a deeper hole to accept the head of the screw, or adjusting (read bending) the geometry of the keys concerned to a proper configuration.
Any soft material under an adjusting screw is nothing but a necessary evil, for the purpose of SILENCING the linkage. The threaded end of such screws is of small diameter, and will crush any natural cork material. Cork, being one of the most crushable yet resilient (springing back) materials available, is about the worst material to use. Thin leather is slightly better. The best material I have found to date is a microfiber, imitation leather, 0.3 mm thick, FAR tougher than leather, and easy to glue. This is used on one of the best models of sax pad made, from Music Center (previously Pisoni) in Italy. It initially crushes as far as it is going to ever crush, and stays like that, stable.
I used to use the covering of the nose cone of a badminton shuttle cock, which does the job far better than cork or leather. Mighty tough stuff, but not as tough/consistent/thin as the microfibre leather I mentioned.
Teflon has the advantage of very low friction, where there is any rubbing action of the screw. However its sound-deadening properties are actually quite poor, and technician's adhesives tend to have a problem with reliability, especially as the teflon distorts under the pressure of the screw, causing the glue to part, as happens as the norm on Pearl flutes.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-09-18 02:22
Many years ago, we "blind tested" a number of things with clarinets, using clarinet students to do the evaluation of instruments played behind a screen. The combination of too many interested people with too much time on their hands leads to interesting things.
One thing tested was the "Bb horn playing an A part doesn't sound right" canard. It feels different when you do it (I think it was perception of playing the A horn but being used to hearing the Bb for the same fingering is what's behind that), but (given equal conditions and competent players), but it sounds the same to the listener when the player is behind a screen.
Another was the use of Teflon rod posts in the ends of adjustment screws on clarinets. This was something relatively new back then, and the noise described in an earlier posting is quite noticeable to the player. However, to the listener, there's far less noise with Teflon rod "padded" keys than any other source of mechanical noise (say poorly shimmed lever keys on the long joint of the soprano clarinet, or (even worse) the keys on the long joint of the bassoon.
When I play my Selmer Series 9 "full Boehm" soprano clarinet, I can perceive the clicks made by the Teflon posts in a rapid passage. However, it's inaudible to the listener. And, the little strips of cork/leather described above are no longer needed...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-18 02:37
--------------------------------------
One thing tested was the "Bb horn playing an A part doesn't sound right" canard. It feels different when you do it (I think it was perception of playing the A horn but being used to hearing the Bb for the same fingering is what's behind that), but (given equal conditions and competent players), but it sounds the same to the listener when the player is behind a screen.
------------------------------------
Terry, that depends on the listener.
I'll even tell you what system Clarinet you are playing it on!
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-09-18 05:59
I had another go at trying to fix the problem last night, but still no luck, unfortunately.
There was a very thin buffer cork there, but as Gordon NZ said, the screw had crushed the end so that it was just about worn through. I managed to get the sliver of cork off intact and turned it the other way round, so that the 'good' end was under the screw (ever felt that your fingers were as big as a bunch of bananas?!).
I was really hoping that this, together with more experimenting with turning the screw slightly, would do the trick, but I tried for ages and it didn't help.
Thanks very much for all your help. I'll report back and tell you what the technician says about it.
Joanna Brown
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-09-18 08:29
by the way- Gordon, my post didn't in any way "criticise" you.... i just invoked your name in the hope that you would agree with me that adjusting screws do, in some cases, seem to move on their own (as odd as that seems)... i mention this because your next post seemed a little defensive!
i thought JBs description of her problem was pretty clear, and i don't know why Ron B thought it was about the f/c e/b business. Sometimes we are all writing late at night and the screen seems to blurr over....
i'll bet it took Howarth 5min to cure, unless they have a 3 week waiting list like repairers do in Auckland..... (btw, thanks Gordon for those times you "slipped me in" when i was on the way to the airport!)
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-09-18 11:19
No problem, Donald.
Auckland is definitely short of capable technicians. I am collecting new customers at an alarming rate, especially as I have a desire to maintain 'semi-retirement' to follow many other interests ahead of material wealth.
I try to keep turn-around to less than a week. It is sometimes quite a juggling act, deciding priorities between professional players, kids missing lessons, kids performing or going on school music trips, parents who want an instrument check when kids have impending music exams, teachers who 'cannot' do without their instrument for more than a day, impatient 'others', giving my finger joints a break, fitting in those horrible complete overhauls of 'vintage' (= old-and-would-have-been-thrown-out had it been a vehicle) saxophones that displace so many other jobs, my respect for and desire to oblige those who do NOT pester me, therapy in forums such as this, and by no means least... my kids coming first during school holidays.
You are lucky to get priority at times. :-)
It seems there are parts of other countries where many players have 'spare' instruments to use while servicing occurs. Pretty rare here!
Post Edited (2004-09-18 11:21)
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-09-18 18:09
Well, I've just come back from my musical afternoon out - buying music and a bass recorder for some pupils, and going to a recorder playing afternoon as well as going to Howarths with the clarinet.
I'm very pleased to say that it's been fixed - and even more pleased that the techie did it for free, on the spot. ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif) Hooray!
Turns out it was nothing to do with the adjusting screw at all <hangs head> - it was that the bridge mechanism was a tiny bit twisted, and that was causing the problem. I was really surprised, as to me the bridge mechanism had looked perfectly OK!
Joanna Brown
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