 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-08-13 02:29
kia ora
i've just finished a tour with Opera NZ, and this wonderful oppertunity (playing the same opera night after night after night) gave me the chance to collect some statistics for all those worried about their pull-throughs jamming in the instrument......
33 performances
17 instances per performance of instrument being wiped out, from the bell end, with a BG chamoi (sp?) pull-through.... that comes to 381 pulls, doesn't it? (note- this is not counting other gigs done in the same time frame, and practise etc)
Not once did the pull-through jam in the instrument (i recall some concern being voiced on this board a while back). The instruments used for this research was an R13 Bflat and a Yamaha Custom 85-2 A clarinet, so if you play Selmer or Leblanc there is still a risk!
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-08-13 02:49
Donald,
Thanks for the interesting data.
It would be interesting also to compare swab jamming rates among clarinet models; i.e., one might expect a small bore Selmer Recital to have a greater stuck swab frequency than, say, a big bore LeBlanc Pete Fountain model.
To make it even more interesting we would need some data on the length of the register tube. A full moon probably has something to do with it too....
Cheers,
Hans
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-08-13 02:53
For the record, we have now officially bottomed out on the bulletin board ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-08-13 03:01
Now, we all know someone has to go on a tour of the same lentgh and gather statistics of barrell to bell. Preferabley the same opera, but I suppose we can make an exception their.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-08-13 14:56
what opera was it?
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2004-08-13 18:03
I got a cotton swab stuck in my Yvette a few years ago. It took a long time & much shredding to get it out. I've been pulling from the barrel end ever since. My statistics:
Swabs: 2 silk, 2 cotton
number of pulls: at least 4000
number of stuck swabs: 0
number of almost stuck swab pulls: at least 10
Type of swabs that almost got stuck: both cotton & silk
As stated, the advantage of pulling from the barrel is that if your swab does hang up you still have the chance to pull it back out. You could say that there are two types of clarinetists who swab from the bell - those that have had a swab get stuck and those that will get a swab stuck. When it does happen it may be at a REALLY BAD TIME. That's not good. Why not play it safe and pull from the barrel? If you think it doesn't dry the bore as well, then maybe just swab twice. No big deal!
MOO,
Matt
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-08-13 18:26
what i don't understand is: if you pull the swab through the barrel, how do you dry the rest of the clarinet?
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2004-08-13 20:57
Leave the rest attached! {: )} Then after the swab is pulled through the barrel it's pulled through the upper joint & then the lower joint, followed by the bell! Truly amazing!
And if it's still to damp, 10 minutes on Permanent Press should do the trick!
MOO,
Matt
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-08-13 21:26
The swab is a useful contraption.
It moves either way; no exception!
But which way is better, I ask.
It's purely a statistical task
to find out which comes close to perfection.
The swab may be simply a sock,
a piece of a T-shirt or frock.
Others find chamois works well,
as long as it goes through the bell.
Myself? I use the product from Doc!
Henry
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-08-13 21:27
(Disclaimer - I make and sell a swab)
Now this is a fun post because there is a little bit of science and a lot of wit. My inclination is toward silk for swabs because it does not leave lint like cotton or other woven materials. The main reason why swabs do not remove all the moisture from the bore in one pass is that there is not enough of the swab actually contacting the bore. When a swab is drawn into the bore it compresses and folds often in an irregular shape such that only ridges and edges of the compressed swab contact the sides of the bore. Some swabs get around this by increasing the mass and length of the swab as a brute force solution to this "edge effect" condition. Increasing the mass sometimes has a bad effect because the amount of material compressed into the bore can more easily catch and hang up on the register tube or form an immovable mass. There is much to be said that if you get the swab past the register tube that it will probably not hang up further along because the bore gets bigger toward the bell. I guess that the scientific experiment given is only valid for one particular clarinet and one type of swab (and one swab within that type) - but keep up the experimentation and we may solve the problems of the clarinet universe yet!
The Doctor
Post Edited (2004-08-13 21:33)
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-08-13 21:52
Matt Locker said:
"I got a cotton swab stuck in my Yvette a few years ago. It took a long time & much shredding to get it out."
Yvette, who is she? What had she done to you for you to treat her so cruelly? Don't use a swab next time!
Henry
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-08-13 22:38
I was an ardent supporter of chamois attached to a string as a swab until last monday's rehearsal intermission. Without paying much attention I dropped the weighted end into the bell and pulled it through when sunnenly it jammed at the register tube. Frankly I panicked as I thought I had resolved all my swabbing problems long ago. As you should know chamois doesn't slide very well compared to silk. Luckily I had two common lead pencils with me and after much trouble managed to remove the chamois swab........and the small piece of chamois I use to wipe my keys. The small piece had managed to stick to the swab chamois thus almost doubling it's bulk. It's back to silk for me! No matter how careful you think you are you can still goof up.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-08-13 22:58
Matt:
You say: "Leave the rest attached!"
does that mean the little lead weight too? usually I sent that down the bore (trying not to rattle too much), followed by the string, and then finally I stuff the fabric down.
are you saying the whole swab mechanism (all three parts) should be attached before inserting? won't it get stuck in the clarinet that way?
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-08-13 23:55
When I am cleaning for the end of the day, I take the whole thing apart and clean peice by piece. This allows me to suck up all of the spit left in the tenons, too.
I do it this way...
Take it all apart
Wipe out the bell
pull through lower joint bottom to top
pull through upper joint top to bottom
clean out the barrel
When I am in the middle of a performance, or don't have time, I pull the swab through the entire thing from the bell. (I know that I risk getting stuck, but it's a silk swab. I also believe that if I am pulling the spit down the instrument, I am just making more paths for the spit to go down. I would rather try to prevent those paths from forming...
Cheers!
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-08-14 00:31
It helps to be friendly with the flute section---flute cleaning rods are great for poking out stuck swabs. Also, it is good to trade saliva with a good looking flautist....
GBK-NOW we have truly hit bottom!......
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-08-14 00:54
mouthpieces with wide tip openings make it easier to get the swab all the way through (combination of wider space between reed and tip and more flexibly reed) - that's why jazz musicians' reeds last longer
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-08-14 01:35
Swabbing from the barrel? For children...
Swabbing from the bell? For amateurs...
I swab from the thumb hole ...GBK
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-08-14 01:52
I've come to a conclusion. Their really is a reason why clarinetist and scientist aren't one in the same. We certainly do have more fun though. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Post Edited (2004-08-14 01:53)
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-08-14 02:09
I have just toured Los Alamos and come to a stunning conclusion
The best swab is NOT material, but energy.
I advocate that the AECommission investigate and fund thermonuclear swab research....a small atomic devise, small enough not to jam, lowered into the instument, and comprised of rotating anti-water, just enough to anihilate the water without warming the grenadilla to the exploding point.
....or have I had way to many Margaritas?
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2004-08-14 02:10
Matt:
I like your idea of ten minutes on permanent press, but it make such a racket when the horn tumbles around in the drier.
Bart
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-08-14 02:18
I've just shredded and removed a swab from a Selmer Bundy oboe.
A standard Morse taper has nothing on an oboe taper for successful jamming! And the top end of an oboe bore has a diameter of only 4 mm.
So if you own a Selmer, you are courting disaster.
My specialised swab-in-oboe tools are:
1. A biopsy tool, modified to have a minute jaw at the end instead of a tissue snipper.
2. A drill bit sharpened at the tip to be like a cork screw, soldered to the end of a rod, shaped such that the drill cannot contact the wall of the bore when the tool is used via a guide with oboe taper OD that fits inside the lower end of the oboe's upper section.
3. A special guide for the reed end of the oboe, such that a 3.5 mm drill bit can be safely used here.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2004-08-16 02:33
Bart:
I place my clarinets into a sock, then place another sock around the first. It's a lot quieter that way!!! You can also dry it with a bunch of towels too! That'll help.
BTW, Fabric softener sheets remove the static making the key action faster.
Generally FOS today!
Matt
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Author: hartt
Date: 2004-08-16 17:20
for all the clarinetists who use a SILK swab and pull thru from the bbl end.......
have any of you experienced a white rabbit emerging from the bell ???
(:o)
d
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-08-16 18:33
No...but I found reeds emerging from my top hat
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2004-08-16 21:25
d
I've never gotten a rabbit yet but I've pulled a couple of "Dust Bunnies" out of my more unused clarinets a couple of times.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-08-16 22:01
I think some ambitious "clarinet scientist" should volunteer their instrument for a study on microwaving moisture from clarinet bores. It would be interesting to see if the metal parts cause mini lightning bolts, and if grenadilla pops like popcorn.
John
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-08-16 22:48
GBK wrote: "For the record, we have now officially bottomed out on the bulletin board"
--personally, I think Donald's a genius. It reminds me of the number holes in the ceiling tile my wife said she counted once ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif) .... but on the other hand I consider GBK a s-u-p-e-r genius. v/r Ken
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-08-16 23:47
Do you think that the opera NZ professional performers didnt know the best way to clean an instrument!
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-08-17 00:02
hey
i didn't say that i knew the BEST way, but it is interesting that in years (untold HOURS) of playing in NZ, the US and europe, i have had a swab get stuck..... um..... maybe once about 1993 sometime....?????? and believe me, i SWAB ALOT! (should be sung to the tune (?) of an old Beastie Boys song)
meanwhile, i believe the idea put forward by CPW warrants serious investigation- i forsee a "multi-purpose microwave oven" with an external hose attachment that can be inserted in the clarinet for drying purpose...
only....
oh no, the same dilllllemmma...
should the microwave external hose attachment go in the bell end, or the barrel end?
donald
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-08-17 00:42
"Swabbing from the barrel? For children...
Swabbing from the bell? For amateurs...
I swab from the thumb hole ...GBK"
Ooh, sounds like fun... Gotta learn how to do that sometime... HAHA! How exactly do you get away with that WITHOUT getting your swab stuck in your clarinet? haha...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-08-17 17:34
Gordon's comment about the Morse taper would seem to at least imply that there is some logic or science to swabbing from the barrel end. If you have never had a bad jam you have led a charmed life.
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Author: Tom J.
Date: 2004-08-17 23:10
Hey, I'm tired of my cigarette paper shredding every 8.6 pulls per water-logged tone hole.
Will someone please invent a tone-hole swab or a thin, tough material that is also absorbent.
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-18 20:25
I must confess that I use a very unorthodox method of caring for my clarinet before disassemble and storing in its case.
I always carry a can of compressed air and a can of WD-40 with me.
I give it two shots of 5 seconds each thru the thumb hole(leave the reed attached). This blows the slobber out both ends at once.
Then I give it a 2 second shot of WD-40. This re-oils the wood, lubricates the leather pads and keys in one operation. An added benefit is that this helps condition the reed so that it doesn't absorb too much moisture.
Never have to worry about a stuck or jammed swab.
Post Edited (2004-08-18 20:30)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-08-18 20:54
Mr. Bishop,
I don't believe you're being honest with us. How can you possibly spray compressed air and WD 40 through the thumb hole while at the same time covering all the open key holes and depressing the remaining pinky keys? This would require holding both cans (the air and WD 40) between your knees while holding the clarinet with both hands. How then do you activate the aerosol spray?
Stop pulling our legs!
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-08-18 21:12
Stephen,
Re: WD-40/"Never have to worry about a stuck or jammed swab"....
You would never have to worry about anyone else trying to steal your clarinet either.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-18 21:13
Larryb,
No need to cover the finger holes, etc. There is enough force from the compressed air and WD-40 can to blow everything out and lube the mechanism.
In fact, if you did try to cover the finger holes, you would get WD-40 on your fingers and then you really have a problem, you would leave oily finger prints over everything.
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding on the 'Bishop Method'.
Kindest regards, Stephen
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-18 21:19
Hans,
You are correct, I have never had my clarinet stolen. Of course, it is an old "Noblet 40" manufactured in the late '50's, so probably nobody wants one that old anyhow.
Some would claim that it is 'blown out' anyhow.
Warmest regards, Stephen
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-08-18 22:18
Stephen,
All that really matters is that your system achieves what you want, but I can't help wondering how you can stand the smell of the Water Dispersant product.
Also, IMO it would be best to avoid damaging your lungs by inhaling any of it or ingesting it and I hope you are careful in that respect.
Best regards,
Hans
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-08-19 01:39
WD-40 is death for wood!
The Doctor
I guess that I should be more specific and less blunt - I have taken a long piece of grenadilla (was supposed to be a pool que I guess) and cut it into blocks and have been applying the common oil products used as bore oil, but also the common lubricants used for keys and other remedies suggested over the years for various applications to wood and cork and have been applying them to the cubes at regular intervals under carefully controlled temperature and humidity conditions. Several of the cubes have disintegrated and one of these was treated repeatedly with WD-40. This is a long term experiment but some of the results are already showing up.
Post Edited (2004-08-19 02:03)
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-19 02:08
Hans,
Thank you for your concern for my health in regards to the 'Bishop Method' of clarinet care.
I think that I have developed a procedure that takes care of the odius petroleum smell. At least once a week, I lay all the joints out on a table in full sun light for about two hours, turning them about every 30 minutes. This seems to do two things, alot of the smell seems to evaporate, and the heating up of the wood allows what remains to soak into the grain very deeply and even seemly disappear.
I must say, that the treatment has protected the clarinet from excess moisture. Once, I left it out during a rain, but the water just beaded up on the clarinet and I was able to just shake the water off and dry it with a towel with no ill effect. This convinced me that it is indeed a "water dispersant" as advertised.
Again, warmest regards, Stephen
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-19 02:22
Dear Doctor,
I would not refute your experimentation.
Perhaps my clarinet, being close to 50 years old was manufactured of an extremely high quality piece of grenadilla wood and your ex pool cue was of an inferior quality. In fact, I am confident that if it(the pool cue) was not of inferior quality, you would not have been cutting it up.
However, I am always openminded to results from good scientific trials and proof thereof.
Perhaps my weekly sunning of the clarinet results in the difference of our finding?
Always learning, Stephen
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-08-19 03:07
As always there are too many variables to make a direct comparison. The stick of grenadilla was indeed a fine piece of aged wood, but wood at the factory is impregnated with a plant derived oil before manufacture - mine was not so this is only an experiment of the effects of treatments on non-oil impregnated wood. In order to be valid, of course each of the variables should be examined without multiple confounding elements. Unfortunately, to get multiple large pieces of wood and examine all the variables, with sufficient replication, is too costly for this unsupported scientist and there are other experiments more demanding of time and money. These caveats explained, most of the other treatments have not had the dramatic and damaging effects on the wood as multiple treatments with WD-40. You have an entirely different set of variables and starting material than I am using. Perhaps the componets of rain water preserved your clarinet!
The Doctor
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-19 03:49
Dear Doctor,
You carry a big hammer and I think you hit the nail on the head and drove it home with one blow.
Regards, Stephen
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-19 03:55
Dear Friends,(I hope)
Thank you for participating in my little charade!!
You all can quit shaking your heads in amazement at the 'Bishop Method'.
It is all a put on, and I will not pull your legs anymore until next time!!
With warmest regards, Stephen
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-08-19 05:07
Ok... I've been reading all of this... WD-40... COME ON PPL!! THAT STUFF IS ENTIRELY WAY TOO STRONG TO BE PUTTING IN A CLARINET!!!! IT'S CLARINET HOMICIDE!!! If you spray it on carpet to get a stain out, you have to air out your room for two or three days with the windows open... We are all gullible, I know... I'm very very gullible, but still WD-40???! WHAT!? haha... It would be very very interesting if someone actually believed you, and sprayed their clarinet with WD-40... THEN THEIR POOR POOR CLARINET WOULD BE RUINED!!! Oh well... That's all I have to say... Have a great day/week/month/year WOOHOO!
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Author: Amy
Date: 2004-08-19 05:40
I clean every part of my clarinet seperately. Just to let you know.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-08-19 06:05
<<I clean every part of my clarinet seperately.>>
Really! Seeing this thread is full of nonsense, may I add this to it...
I was once asked to name how many components a clarinet had. Well, what constitutes a component? Is a key a single component? Is the layer of silver-solder in that key a component? Is the felt in a pad a component? How about the layer of glue?...
I did the best I could:
CLARINET (Based on student Yamaha model C100 S - 1999)
Mouthpiece, ligature, reed cap : 6 so far.
Barrel, body, rings, metal tone holes: another 11.
Tenon corks: +4
Posts (incl. body screws) & pivot screws/rods:
Upper section (incl key guide.) +33
Lower section (incl thumb rest) +34
Springs & spring screws +24
Keys & levers (see Note-1 below) +21
Pads (see Note-2 below) +17
Key & thumb rest 'corks' & linkage silencers +24
TOTAL = 174.
Note-1:
To include key/post/ligature COMPONENTS (assuming rings are integral with ring arms) Add another 81.
Note-2:
To include pad components (assuming double membrane bladder pads, and one cork pad) Add 48
New Total = 303
But to include bonding agents add the following:
Key 'cork' & linkage silencer adhesion 23
Pad membrane adhesion 32
Pad adhesion to key cups 17
Tenon cork adhesion 8
Body ring adhesion (assume bell ring is not glued) 4
Silver solder layers for key & lig. manufacture 81
New Total = 468
To include Electroplating (assuming only a single metal layer):
Keys 21
Posts 35
Rings, ligature, scres, guide, rest, etc 19
New Total = 543
Note: The basic figure of 174 could vary by up to about 10 for different models. The larger figures could vary more substantially.
Amy, do you REALLY clean every part separately? :-) LOL!
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-19 06:48
GBK ... your surly wit and jagged tongue are a constant source of amusement, thanks!!
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-08-19 11:26
Stephen - an interesting charade and just hope that the more implusive members of the BB did not decide to try it out on their own horns. It did however elicit a wonderful enumeration of the parts of the clarinet by Gordon and some good and healthful advice from Hans. I also hope that it makes a number of people question the scientific use of products on our tool to make music - the clarinet. If we can separate and analayze the use and care products that we use on the horn from the art of making music it will be a major accomplishment.
The Doctor
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-19 13:23
Dear Doctor,
I agree.
The main reason I 'fessed up' when I did was that I became concerned that indeed maybe the less seasoned members of these forums might take leave of their good sense and actually try the 'Bishop Method' of clarinet care.
Indeed, my almost 50 year old horn would not have survived such treatment!!
Keep up with the great work that you are doing, it is appreciated.
Many learning clarinetists are like some amateur photographers, thinking that the latest gadget is the answer to making a beautiful work of art. While I am the first in line to advocate the best equipment possible, it is study and practice and let's try that again that turns out the winning performance.
Stephen Bishop
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-19 13:36
Mary,
I am glad that you can recognize another person's folly.
Here is hoping that you never lose your enthusiasm for life.
Your are indeed a 'lit candle in a dark room'.
Stephen
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-08-19 13:49
Hyperbaric oxygen is another rejuvenator.
Don't you all place your horn in a compression chamber each nite?
I do.
And I check an EKG in the morning.
My clarinet is getting a preemptive cardiac cath. next week at the Cleveland Clinic....if its HMO allows it.
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-08-19 14:28
CPW,
I have tried the compression chamber, once.
I found that the notes I played afterward were too susceptible to the 'bends'. I think it was because of the compressed oxygen being released from the wood.
I take it your EKG's have all showed normal.
I would advise against any preemptive surgery. Other then normal care and feeding, I find that clarinets are best left to their own biological cycles.
Regards, Stephen
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-08-19 14:40
I'm shocked and little bit saddened that, after all these posts, Gordon neglected the most important part of the clarinet: THE SWAB!
Other missing parts: lips, tongue, esophagus, diaphragm, lungs, teeth (varies), fingers, knees (for double lippers).
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-08-19 22:24
Bishop
I solved that problem by added Helium mixture
Really works well playing Disney toons....er, tunes
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-19 23:33
Donald, kia ora to you, too. What, prithee, was the opera you toured with?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-08-20 01:00
Wow, definitely some sick, obsessed puppies on here ... now I understand why my wife calls me one. v/r Ken ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-08-20 01:21
Nobody has yet yet mentioned the tone improvements to be gained by placing the clarinet overnight in a pyramid of correct proportion. It is even better if the player sleeps under another such pyramid.
BTW, some sax players do seriously swear by the use of WD40 to clean and preserve their pads, and make them less sticky. I reckon it could soften the waterproofing on some modern pads and turn it sticky!
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2004-08-20 05:08
pyramids are sooooooo 15 min. ago
in fact the expression "sooooo 15 min. ago" is also passe.
I keep a mojo bag in my case. It was obtained from Marie Laveau's voodoo store in Nawlins. Also 2 of those Turkish evil eye charms and lots of crystals from a Geode which was openned at Midnight on the cusp of the Blue moon.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-08-20 06:00
the opera was Cosi fan Tutte
the posting above by Larryb reminds me of something my old teacher used to say (GBK will no doubt know to whom i refer...)
"the clarinet is a woodWIND instrument, not a woodFINGER or woodREED instrument, but a woodWIND instrument"
but then, maybe he was quoting Mr Hasty?
donald
ps- my original posting was pretty much tongue in cheek, so the humorous tangent this posting has taken has been quite satisfying... it is however true that i haven't had a swab stuck in my clarinet for more than a decade...
(i mean.... it is more than a decade since i got a swab stuck in my clarinet, to pre-empt those with a taste for scatology)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-08-20 06:36
Donald...
Here was another gem from our favorite teacher -
On playing too sharp: "...You're higher than a cat's back in April..."
I still have no clue what that means ...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-20 06:51
GBK ... LOL -I happen to have heard that one too, it's quite rude if you know the meaning ...
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-08-20 11:55
think Elephants mating....get the pic?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-08-20 14:07
Now we've really hit bottom.....
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The Clarinet Pages
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