 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-06-05 18:37
I was thinking. Sax pads come down to sizes of 7mm so why can't we use those. Alot of the smaller pads I've seen either don't have resonators in them or they are the plastic ones that don't have anything poking out the back. I'm sure there is an obvious answer that I'm just not aware of.
thanks for enlightening me
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-06-05 22:27
Sax pads are way to thick for use on clarinet. Clarinet pads .110-.117" thick and thinnest sax pads are around .165" thick.
jbutler
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-06-05 22:45
thanks. figured it was something as simple as that... i assume that .055" is just to far for the adjustment screws to adjust for... makes sense, there is a reason they are called sax pads
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-06-07 03:45
Please check previous posts on this subject. Leather pads leak more through the skin than double skin clarinet pads and don't make sense on a clarinet. On saxophones, they should be sealed with a sealer.
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-06-07 03:56
wes, please reread my questions.. and then reread previous post, as you told me to do.... they don't address the same things... and as made quite obvious by previous threads opinions vary on this issue quite a bit... thanks for the reply though
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-06-07 04:23
>>>>>Leather pads leak more through the skin than double skin clarinet pads and don't make sense on a clarinet.<<<<<
NONSENSE! I did a lot of testing before I permanently switched to leather pads. There is more chance for your brain to leak through the ears on the blowing test than the pad to leak through the skin. Good quality properly installed leather pads don't leak. PERIOD! Clarinet pads do not require any sealer.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-07 08:26
Sealer? Never used any. I do believe in ironing leather pads, though (if they don't have resonators).
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-07 10:57
<NONSENSE! I did a lot of testing before I permanently switched to leather pads. There is more chance for your brain to leak through the ears on the blowing test than the pad to leak through the skin. Good quality properly installed leather pads don't leak. PERIOD! Clarinet pads do not require any sealer.>
There are different ways of carrying out blowing test, some very unreliable. I am not questioning YOUR method, but if your bold statement is the result, them something seems amiss. The world of pads is nowhere near as black and white as you suggest.
Some leather pads are treated (at manufacture) to make them air/waterproof. On saxophones, for several reasons, this treatment often results in a problem with pads sticking to tone holes.
Other leather pads, even of 'high' quality, are not treated. If you close your lips around 1/3 of the face of a pad, and suck, the air will leak badly through the leather. Perhaps this is not true of all untreated leather pads, but it is certainly true of many of those marketed.
If air leaks through it is entirely likely that sooner or later the pad leather will become saturated with water &/or saliva. (This moisture may well seal the pad, but only while the pad is damp.) It seems to be that when this happens on a regular basis, the leather (and also the felt beneath) harden. Pads that have hardened lose their ability to accommodate small inaccuracies or changes in alignment with tone holes, resulting in leaks.
At least one top maker of bassoons seals the leather pads after installation, for good reasons, revealed by rigorous testing, I believe considerably more sophisticated than a 'blow' test.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-07 14:23
As I've written before at least twice, Ferree's Tools sells a leather pad they call "B32", listed as "alto/bass clarinet" pads. They are the correct thickness for most clarinets, with sixes down to 7mm. I have been repadding soprano clarinets (including the little Eb) using these pads for the past five years or so, with very good results. Let's all please stop spreading rumors, unsubstantiated opinions, and urban legends, shall we?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-08 01:38
<<... Let's all please stop spreading rumors, unsubstantiated opinions, and urban legends, shall we...>>
To what exactly are you referring? Everything so far written in this thread?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-06-08 14:30
Gordon,
I didn't say a 'blow' test was the only test I've done. What said was:
"I did a lot of testing before I permanently switched to leather pads".
I guess 'a lot' has a deferent meaning in New Zealand or maybe I had to express myself more clearly like 'a lot of various testing..' etc.
Tests included:
Pressure test, vacuum test, examining skin trough the light, blowing through the skin, sucking through the skin etc. I want to point out than I'm talking about leather pads for a soprano clarinet only (from Ferree's Tools).
you said:
If you close your lips around 1/3 of the face of a pad, and suck, the air will leak badly through the leather.
I've tested brand new pads, pads that were already installed for a couple years and pads that were almost 100 years old. Sorry, I couldn't detect any leaks ever. But again, I've never tested a New Zealand brand.
Also you said my testing was not rigorous enough. Now I'm ready for more rigorous testing. I plan to test leather pad skins with a 5000HP air compressor and hope this way I might find a leak or two. Also I might to discover a new way how to make an air balloon in case if there is no leaks.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-08 14:38
Gordon,
I was referring to jbutler's and Wes' posts above, as well as some of the remarks made in the last thread on this subject.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-08 15:18
DS wrote: "Let's all please stop spreading rumors, unsubstantiated opinions, and urban legends, shall we?"
Dave, whet are you trying to do? Cut the Bulletin Board posts by half or more?
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-08 16:04
No need to get sarcastic, Vytas. It achieves absolutely zilch!
I did not know that you were restricting discussion to a particular model of pad from a particular supplier. I have tested many models of pad from many suppliers.
And re "I've tested brand new pads, pads that were already installed for a couple years and pads that were almost 100 years old. Sorry, I couldn't detect any leaks ever. But again, I've never tested a New Zealand brand.".....
New Zealand does not make woodwind pads.
BTW, just as one example: The recently promoted, up-market kangaroo-leather pads, the last candidates for my suck test, were very porous.
See the Musicmedic website for details of these pads which, are otherwise very impressive indeed. Admittedly they are not clarinet pads - yet.
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/categories/cat_14.html
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-06-08 21:52
David,
What did I write that is an "Urban Legend"? The fact that I stated SAX pads are too thick for clarinet? I did not write any thing about leather CLARINET pads. Yes, I am very much aware that there are leather clarinet, bass clarinet, bassoon, and sax pads with each having a SPECIFIC purpose. I think I answered the question directly without any implication(s).
jbutler
Post Edited (2004-06-08 22:03)
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-06-08 22:43
I don't really have a dog in the hunt (SE Texas expression for "It don't really matter to me.") regarding porosity of leather clarinet pads. But lots of folks are using them successfully, and I don't recall anybody writing in saying they had them installed on their clarinet and disliked them. Everything besides performance is just theory, which makes for an interesting thread . . . but does little to convince anyone one way or another.
What I'm about to ask does not, I believe, apply to the fine technicians that have contributed to this thread. I seriously doubt that many people send their instruments across a continent to have one or two pads changed. It may, however, apply to many repair shops that routinely change out a couple of pads at a time. Is it possible that leather pads have fallen out of favor on clarinets because they last too long? They were certainly used more commonly on clarinets years ago than they are now, though they seem to be making a small comeback.
If a skin pad is going to last several years and a leather pad is going to last until the next overhaul, there is certainly no financial incentive on the part of a pad changer to install leather pads. This presumes that leather pads do, in fact, last until the next overhaul. I'd like some opinions on that . . . but I'd rather have testimonials based on experience.
I'm will to consider that a fine skin pad properly installed may actually be superior to a leather pad. If Greg Smith or David Dow says they prefer skin, I figure they are at the point where incremental improvement . . . however slight . . . is worth what it costs. But honestly, those guys might as well play a different instrument than I do . . . 'cause I don't sound anything like them when I play! Leather pads might be ideal for me (perhaps combined with cork upper?) because I have many clarinets that aren't played often, and I'd like the longevity of the leather (and cork).
Anyway . . . this is just a thought. There's probably some validity to it, and also some arguments to be made against it. Those following this thread can probably speak to both.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-08 23:06
Fred said:
"But lots of folks are using them successfully, and I don't recall anybody writing in saying they had them installed on their clarinet and disliked them."
--------------------
Major Manufacturers using them? Why not? Everyone want to assume they've just collectively made another mistake in engineering?
I can say that after installation & moderate use I think that Leather pads look grungier than Cork or Fishskin.
I've also said previously that on some old Selmers (ex: K series) Leather pads seems to work (seat) better, but that has to do in part with the tone holes surfaces on the old Selmers.
I much prefer the look of Kraus 101T and MyPad (& various names from Music Centre).
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-06-09 00:59
Good question, mw. I know Peter Eaton uses leather on the upper joint. I also thought I recalled a recent Big 4 model sporting leather pads, but I can't find confirmation of that right now. Maybe someone else can confirm or deny.
Reason for Big 4 not universally switching? Here are some possibilities that I'll throw out for discussion's sake. They probably cost a few bucks more per clarinet with no additional ROI. They would probably not be welcomed by the dealer network that either doesn't believe in leather pads on clarinets or likes the pad replacement business. And finally . . . risk. What percentage of players on this bb would have their clarinet repadded with leather pads? Double skin pads are accepted and expected on new clarinets. Why risk having your model eliminated from consideration by being unconventional?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-09 01:00
Replying to Fred:
Author: Fred (---.gt.rr.com)
Date: 2004-06-08 22:43
<<...I don't recall anybody writing in saying they had them installed on their clarinet and disliked them.... >>
I do, on a number of occasions.
<<...If a skin pad is going to last several years and a leather pad is going to last until the next overhaul, there is certainly no financial incentive on the part of a pad changer to install leather pads.>>
Have you considered that most technicians who are good at their trade actually have MORE work than they want, and service instruments to last as long and reliably as possible between visits.
A factor relevant in some cases could be that leather pads tend to be more accommodating than high quality bladder pads, to irregularities in the tone hole hole edge, and in alignment of key cup with tone hole. This is a possible reason for less capable technicians to resort to leather. From what I have seen of new instruments padded with leather, I would say that this is probably the main reason the manufacturer uses leather.
I am not sure why they are more accommodating. I don't think it has much to do with the leather itself. I suspect they typically have softer felt than high quality bladder pads. Perhaps this is to accommodate irregularities in leather thickness; Perhaps because they are intended specifically to BE accommodating, as indeed they need to be for the typical bassoon, where level tone holes are not common.
I have no particular gripe against leather pads unless they are porous (which is often the case). I use them to match what is on an instrument, or by request. I do not actually recall the last request; Perhaps I've never had one. I do have a gripe with pads with squishy felt. I consider that they tend to accentuate fuzziness of tone, because of interrupted venting, once the seat becomes deep. I bulge in the centre of a pad also seems to cause more problems with collection of water.
BTW a local buyer of a top, English-made clarinet with leather pads wrote to the maker to ask why they used leather. The answer was that they always had done. Isn't that British!
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-06-09 01:28
In several shops I've been in, there was one guy that had a great reputation and several workers learning on the job. I suspect that replacing pads constitutes a significant part of their woodwind training. People gotta train - I'm not knocking OJT. But while guys like you and others on this board have more than they can handle, there are lots of inexperienced techs out there changing out pads.
Gordon, I just did a quick search and found that my example of player's preferences was inappropriate. David Dow states that he intensely dislikes cork pads (except register key), but uses leather Glotin preferentially. That info is perhaps two years old however. BTW, what new instruments have you run into that came with leather pads?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-09 02:07
<<BTW, what new instruments have you run into that came with leather pads?>>
I have a poor memory for such details. I just deal with each instrument as it comes in, then tend to forget it. Peter Eaton does. Selmer's "ODYSSEE"
& "ARTYS" models do. But they are not the only ones.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2004-07-02 03:29
Well, I'm a little late to this thread.
>>I can say that after installation & moderate use I think that Leather pads look grungier than Cork or Fishskin.
I have been collecting metal clarinets and by and once the pads are several decades old, the skin ones look worse than the leather pads. (Especially if case bugs have eaten holes in them.) But I wouldn't want to put any of them in my mouth. They are all gross! I worked on a Silver King that had some sort of rubber pads. They were gross too.
One exception. I worked on a 1930 Selmer that had leather pads that looked absolutely new. They were hard and did not seal well, so they had to go. They were not standard leather pads, however, but had simply been punched out of thick leather. and were tinted red. Anyone familiar with those type?
In a few instances I have padded the same model of metal clarinet with different types of pads. For what it is worth, each brand sounds and feels more like its siblings than like other instruments, regardless of pad type. But I could put a mouthpiece on the wrong end and sound almost as good.
Now, my questions:
1) how do you iron leather pads and what does it accomplish?
2) if you decide to seal pads, what do you use and how do you do it?
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Author: Graham Golden
Date: 2004-07-02 16:46
Manufacturers that use leather pads, at least to my knowledge are: Howarth, Peter Eaton, all new Selmer Paris models. I believe most German clarinet makers use them. I have seen them a Uebel instrument i worked on, and believe they were installed on the Wurlitzers at ClarinetFest last year. Amati uses them on ALL German system clarinets (ACL 341-671), and some Boehm: ACL 261(Eb sop.), 512(mopani), 515(Mopani full Boehm), 615(Grenadilla full Boehm), 675(A, grenadilla full Boehm). Interestingly, most higher end models--Amati uses the fish skin for the student and intermediate models. I have never experience leakage in the instruments of these that I have personally played or worked on.
From a conversation a while back with David Straubinger, he said that leather pads are very popular amongst both German clarinet and piccolo manufactures, and that some pic. makers use his pads for American sales, but use leather for all others. If there is an antithesis to the leather pad, the straubinger pad would certainly be it. JS pads are designed to be used for "leather pad" applications (i.e. saxophones), but have no properties like those of leather pads and require perfectly level tone holes. They work great on bass clarinets as well.
Best,
Graham
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Author: martind
Date: 2004-07-02 18:04
Graham, I purchased an Amati clarinet AL670 and it came with fishskin
pads. Your info on german mfg using leather pads is interesting. I
keep learning from our conversations.
Martin
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Author: Graham Golden
Date: 2004-07-02 18:31
Dear Martin,
The first time I saw any Amati German clarinets was in 2002, and all that I have personally seen since then have had leather pads. In fact, i just opened a box with an ACL 342 (simple German) and ACL 346(Eb German system), and both have leather pads... last year i went through about 12 amati German system horns, and they all had leather pads. They are known for making some product changes on the fly... So as a general rule, they seem to have leather pads. But, i guess it can’t be a certain fact. They do not advertise that they use them, they just use them. Selmer, Eaton etc. advertise their use, so are probably more obligated to keep the padding consistent.
Best,
Graham
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-07-02 20:38
Here is a "material independent" post to this Thread.
Ferree's is having their 60th Anniversary Sale --- all Pads are 30% off Ferree's regular prices.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-07-03 17:23
fwiw - Prestini is having a sale, too. If you call or email them, they will FAX a sheet which contains the sales particulars. In that regard, Prestini has special sales pricing on their SETS of pads. While I (normally) don't buy pads in sets, the pricing is extremely attractive. Seems like they had some at $3.00 a set (HERMES brand, for one, IMMSMR).
Post Edited (2004-07-04 00:11)
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