 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-24 03:15
...so when people say "breathe with your diaphragm", it really bothers me. Steven Melillo taught us this when I was in 9th grade in New Mexico All-State, and it's something I've laughed inwardly at every time we have a clinician come in and tell us to breathe "using our diaphragm, not our chest". Even more amusing is the fact that the diaphragm is located in the lower chest, right below the lungs! I think what people mean by this is that you should breathe "correctly", which when done, will cause your stomach to expand before or with your chest. Yet people also screw this up, and tell people only to "breathe deep into your stomach, not your chest", which causes people to try and control their stomach muscles while breathing in, another thing that shouldn't happen. I think we should be careful when we try to discuss with young players the best way of breathing when playing an instrument, and make sure we don't cause them to take a step back on the breathing line. Saying things like "breathe with your diaphragm" or "breathe to make your stomach expand, not your chest" is counterproductive. Something more along the lines of "when you breathe correctly, your stomach should expand with your upper chest...", I think, would be a more helpful way to teach the exercise.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-06-24 05:35
If the diaphragm is involuntary, why are we able to voluntarily control our breathing?
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-24 05:54
Just because something works, doesn't mean we can control it. We control our breathing with our lungs, and the diaphragm works with our lungs to make use of that air. Much like we have no control over our digestive system, yet we can still eat, and we do so with our mouth, and swallow with the various parts of our throat.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-06-24 06:10
The diaphragm is a muscle of inspiration. It sits along the bottom ribs, and it is attached to the bottom of our lungs. To breathe in, the lungs are collapsed; we use our diaphragm to pull down, thus expanding the lungs and creating a low pressure zone inside our lungs. And so they draw in air. Our lungs start just above the diaphragm, which is about the same spot as our lowest rib, and goes all the way up to our shoulders - you could actually pierce your lungs from above your collarbone.
When we use our diaphragm to pull down, it squashes down our stomach (digestive system), and so this expands with an inward breath. The lungs also expand, and so the ribcage along with it, and our intercostal muscles (the muscles between the rib cage) stretch and expand also.
In short, I'd say the best way to explain to a student about breathing is to teach them the anatomy of the respiratory system, and tell them that breathing is a process of expansion. It is also paramount that they simply breathe as they normally would: quick breaths and breathing in time can come a little later.
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2004-06-24 08:35
Thanks, LeWhite, for the anatomical lesson. I am like many of the visitors to this website in being largely ignorant in most of the scientific disciplines, so I appreciate all the help I can get!
Although I am familiar with the basics of the role of the diaphragm in breathing, I did not realize until now that the lungs extend all the way up to the shoulder area.
Long ago I attended a session on breathing given by a disciple of Arnold Jacobs, who taught that full breathing required filling the lungs from the bottom up until we feel air pressure in the middle of the upper back just below the shoulder bones. At the time, I dismissed the exercise as way excessive, assuming that the instructor was some kind of nut whose extreme ideas were attributable to hyperventilation or oxygen deprivation, or both.
You have just taught me (40 years later) that his exercise had a solid scientific basis.
Ve get so soon old, und yet so late schmart.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-24 11:10
Some not quite right statements up there, I think.
When our dome-shaped diaphragm tightens, it flattens. Yes, this presses the gut down (and out in the region of the navel). At the same time it 'drags' (without getting too pneumatically technical) the lungs down, hence causing them to inflate.
Our lungs do not make our ribs expand. Some of our intercostal (between the ribs) muscles, when they operate (i.e. shrink - muscles cannot push), because of the way they are arranged, expand our ribcage, HENCE dragging our lungs out with them, causing the lungs to inflate.
These are two separate systems for inflating the lungs.
As far as I know, the term 'involuntary' with respect to muscles, means that they can go ahead and do their thing (e.g. breathing) without messages from the brain. That does not mean that we send conscious brain messages to override what they are doing. This is what happens with the diaphragm when we consciously take a deep breath, rather than just leave it to work on auto-pilot during normal breathing.
Long ago I was taught diaphragmatic breathing which produced quite a lot of stomach movement, I more recently have encountered singing specialists (who tend to know a lot more about breathing technique than instrumentalists) who focus little on distension of the stomach when inhaling, but rather expansion of the rib cage sidewards and backwards, as much as frontwards.
What instrumentalists seem to often get really wrong is the notion of "pushing" from the diaphragm. When exhaling, the diaphragm is incapable of playing any part other than to relax, unless it is OPPOSING the exhalation in a pulsating manner to produce one from of vibrato.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-06-24 13:12
Bob,
I agree with DH - if the diaphragm were an involuntary muscle, we would not be able to interrupt or control the way we breathe. IMO better examples of an involuntary muscle are contractions of the heart or peristalsis in the digestive system.
I agree with you that the "breathe deep into your stomach, not your chest" instruction is not a good approach. It isn't necessary to know the anatomical details to figure this out, although they are interesting.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-06-24 13:26
Yep, my bad, Gordon is correct, sorry. I learned almost everything I know from variuos writing of Arnold Jacobs, and my teacher's knowledgeof his work.
Erm, not that I know THAT much, but yeah. You know what I mean.
It's really tragic when I attend a music camp or whatever, and the clarinet instructor gets everyone to 'push your navel through your back'. Tragic.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-06-24 13:52
It's the P.E.instructors who cause the problem by telling everybody to suck their belly in.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-24 15:53
The act of breathing is a much misunderstood process. Some of the comments above are correct, some are not. And advising anyone to "breathe with your diaphragm" tells only part of the story.
The diaphragm can be tightened voluntarily. It is not connected to the lungs or anything else except at its outer edge, where it has an airtight connection to an area all around the inner body between the abdominal cavity and the thoracic cavity, which encloses the lungs. When the diaphragm tightens, its dome shape flattens downward, reducing the pressure in the thoracic cavity. Outside air pressure is then greater than internal thoracic pressure, thus forcing the lungs to expand with outside air. The downward movement of the diaphragm also compresses the abdominal organs, causing the belly to push out with deep breathing. When the diaphragm is relaxed, pressure from the compressed abdominal organs forces it upward, in turn compressing the thoracic cavity and causing the lungs to expel air.
Forceful outward breathing cannot be done with the diaphragm, as no muscle can tighten in more than one direction. Forced outward breathing is accomplished by tightening the abdominal muscles, squeezing the abdominal organs, thus forcing the diaphragm upward. Precise control of the rate of airflow from the lungs is accomplished by voluntarily regulating the balance of tension between the diaphragm and the abdominal muscles .
Regards,
John
Post Edited (2004-06-24 16:04)
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Author: JoeMich
Date: 2004-06-24 16:42
Excellent and very accurate explanation of the anatomy involved in breathing, John! Sounds like you may be very well acquainted with Grays Anatomy .........
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Author: Keil
Date: 2004-06-24 17:08
I think the idea of breathing deeply is simply a mental one. It's gives the students an idea of breathing from the bottom up... think of it as a mental picture. It's like telling a singer to sing to the back of the hall.... of course the singer's breath won't reach the back of the hall but the idea is to project and have this mental image that you can aim for. I think if you were to tell a beginning student to breath in the scientific manner described above he/she would surely panic from over thinking a natural process. The best way for me to explain to a student how to breath is to have them lie on their back and breath normally... the shoulders are inhibited from moving upwards, hence the restricition of shallow breathing thereby forcing the student to breath "from the bottom up." It's the way we breathed as babies. By placing a book or such on the lower abdomen it gives the student a visual image of what's happening. They can see the book rise and fall. Once the student has that more tangible image to hold on to they can then translate that to a more natural clarinet playing position, ie sitting or standing. There is reason to the madness. Once the student is older and capable to really figure out how breathing happens, i'm sure by then they are more aware that breathing from the stomach isn't really possible.
Now, after knowing all of this who of us don't have mental lapses from time to time with regards to our breathing?
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-06-24 17:23
This ranks up there with "spot toning" and "targeted" exercise.
Kiddies - if you want a clear, and concise, presentation of the notion involving abdominal muscles for wind support; read Jack Brymer, Keith Stein, David Pino and the USAF high-altitude training manual.
They all say the same thing - sufficient inter-abdominal pressure maintains airway support under duress.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-06-24 23:48
Why not just tell the student to breath in so that their stomach gets bigger? I don't know too many kids for whom the situation would be clarified by getting into the anatomical basis for breathing correctly?? I think it's a K.I.S.S. situation (keep it simple, stupid!). = )
Also, the analogy of eating doesn't fly... Digestion is not the process of eating, it's the process of breaking down the food that you've already eaten... Digestion is involuntary, but ingestion is very much voluntary... They are two completley separate processes.
I understand that breathing is involuntary much of the time, as is blinking, but we can control both if we want to... I just didn't see what your comment about it's being involuntary had to do with the rest of your post.
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: si bemol
Date: 2004-06-25 01:07
Breathing explained by the master.
http://www.clarinet-saxophone.asn.au/articles/jacobs.pdf
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-25 01:46
Quote:
Why not just tell the student to breath in so that their stomach gets bigger? I don't know too many kids for whom the situation would be clarified by getting into the anatomical basis for breathing correctly?? I think it's a K.I.S.S. situation (keep it simple, stupid!). = )
Also, the analogy of eating doesn't fly... Digestion is not the process of eating, it's the process of breaking down the food that you've already eaten... Digestion is involuntary, but ingestion is very much voluntary... They are two completley separate processes.
I understand that breathing is involuntary much of the time, as is blinking, but we can control both if we want to... I just didn't see what your comment about it's being involuntary had to do with the rest of your post.
You're right, it was a crappy analogy. About 2 hours after I made it, I considered going back and modifying my post to remove it, but LeWhite had already replied, and I never modify a post if someone has posted after me.
As for the involuntary part, my post was aimed at the diaphragm and use of it being involuntary, not breathing itself. While we can control breathing and through that, we can make use of our diaphragm, we don't breathe with it, and people saying to "breathe with the diaphragm" is useless. It seems to me that they're trying to say "breathe deep" but sound condescending at the same time. "Hey, I'm the clinician, I know more than you, so I'll use words high school students couldn't possibly know!" What, would you like us to breathe -without- using our diaphragm? Or would you like us to bypass the lungs completely and use our diaphragm to take the air in? Both interpretations, one seems to say that the diaphragm is something you can turn on or off, and the other seems to imply that the diaphragm is the counterpart to the lungs, and can be used to replace the lungs in breathing. Neither is accurate. The diaphragm is just a tool of the respiratory system, and can't be directly used. We don't have to lecture new students on the details of the respiratory system, but almost anything is better than telling them to use a muscle they can't directly control and always use when they're breathing anyway.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-25 02:51
"...Why not just tell the student to breath in so that their stomach gets bigger?..."
Because as I mentioned, that seems NOT to be what top singing instructors are advocating.
One can breathe very deeply by expanding the rib cage sidewards and backwards. I do not know the precise location and tilt of the diaphragm, but it seems that in doing this, one can still be using the diaphragm to the full.
Indeed after filling the lungs like this, I cannot get any MORE air in by allowing my stomach to distend from flat. Therefore I presume my diaphragm is fully tightened to its flattened shape.
On the other hand, if I fill, allowing my stomach to distend, I can then get MORE air in by allowing my rib cage to expand further sideways and back.
Perhaps it is better to get the student to put the backs of the fingers (fingers pointing behind the person) against the sides of the lower rib cage, and get them to breathe in while feeling the sideways expansion.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-06-25 02:52
John said:
<<I did not realize until now that the lungs extend all the way up to the shoulder area.>>
Guess you've never had pneumonia, then? I can STILL feel what that felt like . . .![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
It also seems to me that I was taught by someone, somewhere (more than likely in a vocal music context) to breathe all the way down into the seat of the pants. Now, obviously, the lungs don't extend all the way down there. But it does encourage a sensation of being deeply centered in one's body, and it keeps tension from forming above the waist.
FWIW.
Susan
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-06-25 03:20
"Perhaps it is better to get the student to put the backs of the fingers (fingers pointing behind the person) against the sides of the lower rib cage, and get them to breathe in while feeling the sideways expansion."
I was taught to do this and it helps a great deal.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-06-25 04:27
The problem with teaching breathing is that almost anything you could possibly say *most often* comes off as your experience or a metaphor or both.
There are specific exercises which can replicate "correct" breathing. Lie on your back in a very relaxed state and simply NOTICE what moves when you happen to take a breath. In other words, don't force the breath but notice how your body innately moves when it needs a lot of air.
One other exercise which was taught to me as a means to feel the rib cage expanding (particularly in the back) is the "balloon" trick. *****I have heard from some sources that this could be dangerous for reasons I do not comprehend, so use at your own risk:
1. Get a balloon (think 8"-12" round).
2. Exhale all the air from your lungs.
3. Inhale as much air as you can after your lungs are empty.
4. Exhale ALL the air into the balloon, and *without taking or losing any more air* allow the balloon to "blow you up."
This always helps *me* feel like I can take in more air, and *to me* it also feels like I can expand more in areas to which I usually don't pay much attention.
There are other tools, like the breath builder and the breathing bag which can improve other aspects of breathing.
I haven't read the above links due to lack of time, but I would (for the most part) trust most of what Arnold Jacobs teaches (taught??). I don't know if the above sites are *his* words/exercises/etc. or just someone repeating *their interpretation* of them. That would be my only caution...
Katrina
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