 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-05-15 20:09
In exercise #17 on line 6 there is a gruppetto begining and ending on low C.
Should a B or Bb be played. My ear says B, the book is marked with an unannotated lazy S.
Is there a general rule on the notes of a turn and how they obey key signatures?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-05-16 02:08
In musical notation a gruppetto indicates that one should play a group of four notes - the note above, the note itself, the note below, and the note itself, all within the given key signature.
Any changes (sharp, flat or natural sign) to the group of four notes would be indicated above (for the upper note) or below (for the lower note) of the gruppetto.
In this particular case since there is no alteration indicated to the lower note of the gruppetto, it therefore follows the key signature of the piece - thus it is a Bb ...GBK
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-05-16 02:27
As usual, GBK is right on. For there to have been a B rather than Bb as the lower member of the grupetto, there would have been a natural underneath.
Post Edited (2004-05-16 02:28)
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-05-16 16:08
Thanks for the answer, I'll play it correctly from now on.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2004-05-16 17:07
However, carelessness by composers, editors, and publishers often leads to mistakes in these ornaments, especially if the clarinet part is transposed from a concert-pitch score. If something sounds wrong you might have to check the score and analyze the harmony to detect a possible error.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-16 17:42
Elmo & others are correct. For a comparison one could check the Rose 32 with the Artistic Stdies by David Hite - if you don't have a copy, your local music store would.
http://www.jdhite.com/music/clarinet/notes-c1.htm
Sometimes we have to learn what the composer had "in mind" though it may not sound right to ears. In other situations, your ear may not be wrong & this reveals a problem. Have you checked the chalumeau Bb with a tuner? Just curious ...
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-05-16 18:09
I have been playing it with the Symphonie and the low Bb and B are right on with my tuner. I also tried it on the Dymanique. As far as I'm concerned, right or wrong, it just sounds better with a B. But maybe my ear has gone wierd in my old age, anyone who loves playing Rose 32, Kroepsch and K. Stamitz has got to be a little out to lunch.
If I just play the measure with the turn then whether or not it's a Bb or B makes no difference to my ear, it works both ways. But when played together with the following measure my soul says it should be a B.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2004-05-16 18:30)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-05-16 20:10
The Carl Fischer edition of the Rose 32 is marred by misprints, typographical errors and bad page turns. It is an annoying edition to use (and correct). After almost 100 years (I think the first Carl Fischer edition was 1913) the same mistakes still remain.
Buy the Hite edition of the Rose 32. All the misprints have been corrected. Bad page turns have been fixed and the editing is meticulous...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-05-16 20:44
The Hite edition has it the same way. (BTW, this etude is no. 16, rather than 17, in the Hite edition.) While the B sounds appropriate, I think the Bb does to. Unless Hite made an error, it appears that Bb is the correct note.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-05-16 23:29
Ah, pragmatism at its vry best!
Play the thing if it sounds like it should be a natural then it should. Both of the notes, in a grupetto, that are above and below the main note are essentially what are know as 'auxilliary notes'. Auxilliary and passing notes are different forms of, the unfortunately termed, 'non-essential' notes. Passing notes, by definition, are notes that pass between two different harmonically important notes. Auxilliary notes are notes between two 'same' harmonically important notes. In other words up and back or down and back. Most of the time the grupetto is doing exactly this but twice. Up and back followed by down and back or vice versa. Nevertheless the notes, other than the main note from which the grupetto starts and finishes, are non-essential notes. They are auxilliary notes because they are between two harmonic notes that are the same.
The only debate as to whether the lower note of the grupetto is naturalised/sharpened or not, or in fact whether the upper note is flattened, is the resulting sound not an arbitrary rule! The above comments about typographic errors are all too relevant.
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