 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetmajr
Date: 2004-02-24 01:43
I have a student who I teach (i'm a college student myself) who is having embouchere difficulties. They aren't severe, but I can see how it is beginning to and will continue to impede their process until it is corrected. I have tried many things but it isn't getting much better. The difficulties lies in the fact that they are a very good player and they have a very nice tone right now, so when they make changes for the better they are discouraged by the difference in their sound (which isn't hugely noticeable but to them it seems so). I keep telling them to trust me that this is the way to go, but I can see how they are having doubts. So my question is, for anyone who has had to make an embouchere change, great or small, how long did it take for you to feel comfortable with it? I just want to think there is a light at the end of the tunnel for them.
Thanks!
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-02-24 04:27
If they're not cheating and is a serious clarinetist who practices 1-2 hours a day, 5 days a week they should lock back in within roughly 2 weeks to 3 months. Are there other areas of their playing (i.e., tonguing, endurance, air stream and/or dynamic range, reed response-longevity, etc.) where there's been marked improvement? I'd then highlight these areas while temporarily downplaying the tone issue. If they need more convincing apply a "before and after" scenario by recording them playing identical passages with old and new sets. Emphasis also needs to be placed on re-assuring the student they're going to get their tone back. If they're an intermediate to advanced player there's no choice in the matter, ALL players will eventually sound like themselves regardless of most any equipment change. It's also perfectly normal to experience tone-control-spreading looseness problems when changing embouchures gradually or abruptly.
Keep things positive and progressing, they'll be fine if they give themselves and YOU a chance. Also, the trust and confidence factor should ethically be THIER responsibility not yours ... conviction takes courage! v/r Ken
Post Edited (2004-02-24 04:30)
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-02-24 05:01
I am confused. If this student is playing well and has a nice sound what is there to change? I would be a little cautious in claiming the wisdom of Solomon with comments like:-
"I can see how it is beginning to and will continue to impede their process until it is corrected"
If there progress is 'currently' being impeded then a change in something might be appropriate. If it is just speculation I would be careful. If you are studying yourself you may not have enough experience to make these kind of judgements. You have mentioned too few specifics for the rest of us to make informed comments.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-02-24 06:32
Quote:
If this student is playing well and has a nice sound what is there to change? I was wondering this myself. If the sound is good, and they are comfortable playing it, is there a real reason to change?
This is a general question, not directed to the poster, but to anyone out there. What constitutes the need for an embouchre change, if they sound good and are comfortable with it?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-02-24 06:42
I, too, am a bit puzzled by your description:
"The difficulties lies in the fact that they are a very good player and they have a very nice tone right now, so when they make changes for the better they are discouraged by the difference in their sound..."
I'm not clear on what you wish this student to change. In my experience being a good player with a nice tone is what we all aim for.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-02-24 09:31
There are plenty of 'nice tones' out there that are produced by soft reeds and lots of lip padding. They sound great until the player climbs into the upper clarion register and cannot reach the proper pitch.
It's becoming more of a problem all the time given the failure of so many school children to practice regularly, and the adoption of 'block scheduling' by school systems so that kids don't have band/orchestra every day. Muscles don't get built, and saxophone type embouchures are resorted to.
Before anyone attempts to say that such sounds will be too spread, bright, etc., let me assure you that these sounds fool clarinet players who judge the kids at all-district auditions in my area. (largely due to inadequate testing of range and technique)
All of that is to say that Clarinetmjr may not be guilty of fixing something that isn't broken.
I also agree with Ken that it may be necessary to deemphasize sound quality for a while. We don't know how much this student practices, how old he is, etc., but I generally go on and teach them their scales and rhythm in hopes that it will necessitate enough practice to start building their muscles.
Allen Cole
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-02-24 11:08
There's also a need to change embouchure in order to build stamina, for the ability to comfortably play longer. I had a serious problem with jaw pain, and could play well for short pieces, but the pain would be so great I would have to stop playing to rest the jaw. But by changing the embouchure not only did the pain disappear, but the overall tone is better. The learning process is painful on its own and discouraging because of the awful tone produced at the beginning, until the new muscles that are called upon to perform finally get strengthened.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-02-24 14:50
Hmmm, just thinking about myself, the only time I ever made embouchure changes in my own playing practice was for immediate tone quality improvement. If change makes someting worse, what's your point? If your student alread has a good tone quality, build on it--don't try to reinvent the wheel.
As for adjudicators at festivals being "fooled at music festivals" by these sounds, I must reply by simply re-quoating--I know, for the hundredth time-- the great Duke Ellington, "If it sounds good, it is good". That is what auditions and music festivals are for--to select and reward performances that sound best or good. Audiences do that all the time and the adjudicator is simply acting as the "mini audience" in awarding ratings of excellance or selecting which performance sounds best. It is simply that which sounds the best, is the best--no fooling!!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-02-24 14:56
Since you are a college student yourself I assume you are of typical college age rather than a returning adult. Not being a teacher myself I am curious as to exactly "what" the problems are and how you judge the need for change.....considering that the student's sound seems OK.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-02-24 18:58
"Sometimes the big changes are the easiest, and the little changes are very hard" Why? Because you'll notice the big difference between a big change, and a small difference in a smaller one. With my first private teacher, I had to make a big embouchure change, and that was easy. My second (and current) teacher wanted me to make a slight embouchure change (bring in the sides of the mouth closer to the mouthpiece, plus a little more lower lip), which for a couple of months I did not see why (since I had been told so many times I have a beautiful sound), and his way seemed to sacrifice several things that I had worked so hard to develop with my former teacher. Then playing Eb came back (in Cabaret), which requires a more focussed embouchure. I still don't agree with him on the lower lip part, but now I have the ringing edge that I was looking for, that I felt that I didn't quite have in my sound before!
So, encourage your student to give you a fair chance. I don't know how old the student is, but sometimes it's middle school students that can be the toughest to change their embouchure. And, as others have said, emphasize their strong points.
Meri
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2004-02-25 00:28
(clarinetmajr)>> The difficulties lies in the fact that they are a very good player <<
That says a lot right there. Either they're going to conquer the problem, or there is no problem.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-02-25 00:49
If this student heard praise from someone else about their 'new' tone, then they may be more willing to stick with it.
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Author: clarinetmajr
Date: 2004-02-25 03:42
Thank you for the advice. I know this is stupid but the student is me. I'm suffering like there is no tomorrow to try and get what my teacher so wants me to achieve but it is not happening very quickly. I didn't want to sound stupid or desperate and I just wanted to see what everyone could offer. I'm in both the orchestra and the wind ensemble and both of my conductors seem very pleased with my sound. My teacher is as well; he says my tonal and musical concepts are excellent but i'm working way too hard to achieve this... i use too much pressure and I don't use air efficiently. Its like the end result is correct but the equation isn't. I won't be able to reach my potential if I can't overcome this... he has said this and I really believe it is true. For everyone who had something to offer I appreciate it very much. I know i'll find "the right way" of playing according to my teacher... but it is just taking me longer than I thought it would.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-02-25 05:36
Nothing's stupid around here, Clarinetmajr. No one can pitch in unless you bring up the subject and I'm glad you have. I'm sure many of us have had to deal with a similiar, if not exactly the same, situation.
I had a teacher once who gave me a one-word piece of advice that has carried me through good times and not-so-good struggles for many years. I'd like to pass it along to you, C-majr. I hope it turns out to be as valuable to you as it has been to me because I believe you're working too hard, as I was when he told me to
Relax 
- ron b -
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-02-25 15:21
My tone was fairly good. My new teacher has improved it within a few weeks and I seldom go back to the old one. It sounded spread for the first two weeks, but the extra tension is decreased. The air is flowing. I don't think I've got everything set yet however. Some students resist change. I just do my best to follow the guidance I am given, one more thing for my bag of tricks. I can always go back to my old habits if it doesn't work out.
I am told that it can take even a year to really get set on the changes.
I think he may be teaching me a sax type emb.
What exactly is the difference?
Post Edited (2004-02-25 15:26)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-02-25 15:42
The most positive reinforcement is going to come from the quality of your teacher's playing. If his or her playing has attributes that you desire for yourself, take the teacher's counsel and make the change. If not, get a new teacher. It is hard as an advanced player to tear down and rebuild an embouchere, but if it will enable going to the "next level", it should be worth the time and pain to get there.
Good luck with it.
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Author: clarinetmajr
Date: 2004-02-25 16:43
Thanks. I actually am from an area where I feel the playing sounds very bright ( Philadelphia area). Maybe this is just my ears, but my tonal concept of what I feel a good sound is, is a dark yet ringing sound. My teacher has a ringing sound but I don't feel it is as dark as i'd want mine to be when I become an advanced player. He is a wonderful teacher though; he wants to give me his thoughts and ideas but he still wants me to be "me" so to speak and to draw my own conclusions eventually. I respect and trust him, so i'm trying very hard here to get where I should be in this matter. It just seems I keep falling back into my old ways without realizing it sometimes.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-02-26 15:49
William, if you want address what I say in my post, please start off by reading it in its entirety. Had you done so, you would find that your Duke Ellington quote is not only inappropriate, but refuted by the very circumstances I was describing.
Kids (and adults, for that matter) who get nice tones with weak embouchures have gained nothing if they can't get their horns in tune. This is the ultimate fallacy of all these arguments that nothing is wrong if the tone is nice. What I was pointing out is the fact that when tone is a primary criteria of ability (as it is with the All-District Middle School Band in my area), you really need to find out if it is maintained over more than and octave or a twelfth.
One of the most attractive aspects of the clarinet as a beginner's instrument is the lack of physical exertion required to produce limited initial results. And one of the greatest crises in clarinet instruction is the fact that students can get used to playing with no exertion and fail to build the embouchure and breath support that they need in order to advance. Clarinetmjr's follow-up post indicates that he may be dealing with misplaced exertion which needs to be transferred or distributed in order to let his embouchure do its job.
While I realize that your post was 'just thinking about yourself' perhaps that in itself is the problem. Some of us are drawing on the experiences not only of ourselves, but of colleagues and students.
Allen Cole
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