 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-24 04:06
Well, I now have regularly scheduled lessons with my old High school instructor. Luckily, he doesn't go on the internet very often and I doubt checks these pages so I'm in the clear so far (or am I?)
Anyways, my community band instructor, a very knowledgable and wise person has been telling me to see this one clarinet teacher for almost a year (I posted on it a while ago). The problem is that the person that my band leader recommends (for the remainder of the post we will refer to him as Mr. Expensive), while he has many credentials (can make a comfortable living playing ONLY soprano Bb, A, and sometimes Eb clarinet, students consistantly make top honor bands, frequently subs with NJ Symphony and works a lot as a freelance clarinetist), is $80 an hour whereas my current instructor (who will be known as Mr. Budget), who can also teach me much, is 30 an hour.
Now my instructor tells me that lessons with Mr. Expensive are really worth it. He states that while I can learn with whomever I choose, he still strongly recommends Mr. Expensive and states that even just two or three lessons will teach me a lot and will prove to me how beneficial he can be as a teacher. So I'm thinking about taking a few lessons (behind my current teachers back?) to see if it's really worth continuing. In the meantime I'll switch to once every other week with my old instructor to help my wallet take the change.
So is this a good idea? Should I feel bad for secretly trying out instructer's behind my regular (although only for three lessons) instructor's back? Am I just being too overly sensative to the situation?
Thanks,
US Army Japan Band
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-24 04:17
I think it's common for students to have a few lessons with teachers other than their main ones, it's bery beneficial and you can learn new things as well as get many differing opinions on your playing. Go for it!
Let Mr. Budget know too, he'll probably be very interested to discuss what you learned with Mr. Expensive.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-01-24 05:01
In agreement with LeWhite, Alexi, I wonder why you feel you must do this on the sly. And, I won't go into why I think this whole situation feels a bit 'fishy' to me.
Objectively speaking, different teachers, friends, acquaintances, have different things to offer. It's no offense for a student to study with another teacher for a while or switch permanently - for whatever reason. In fact, I recommend getting all the information/help you can from whomever you choose. Good teachers do not resent students wishing to learn from other teachers, they encourage it. No teacher knows it all.
Just be up front about what you decide. You might be surprised to learn just how much teachers communicate with one another, on a friendly basis, about their teaching and their students.
In your situation, I'd probably stop lessons altogether for a while, give your wallet a well deserved rest and seriously think about your personal musical goal(s). You might discover that you can do a lot more than you thought you could on your own initiative... hmmmm?
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n [the re-tread] b -
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-24 05:11
The whole reason I feel I should do this on the sly is because I just started with this teacher. Sort of a New Years thing. And also because we do have a slight "history" together since he was my high school band instructor and always urged me to try out for area/region bands and the like (and I never did because it conflicted with wrestling which was more important to me at the time). So I feel like it'd just be a jerk thing to do, telling him that I'd like to schedule a regular weekly study program, then backing out after a month to go to someone else. Just seems mean like I was leading him on or something. And what happens if for some reason I need to go back to him or need his help with something and he resents me doing that? (ie. having to cross that bridge which I've burnt behind me?)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-24 06:27
So you're thinking of STOPPING lessong with Mr. Budget to have lessons with Mr. Expensive?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-24 06:43
Lewhite,
If he turns out after a few lessons to be worth it, wouldn't you want to concentrate your full attention to him?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: skye
Date: 2004-01-24 23:53
I'm lost. But I think you should stay with Mr Expensive. Sorry.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-01-25 02:19
sure, you can cheat, but will you respect yourself in the morning? ;-)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-25 02:26
In any event, I've decided to cut back on lessons to every other week (bi-weekly? Semi-weekly? I always get confused) and I will tell him that I'm trying to get a hold of this other teacher for lessons. I'm going to continue with my old HS instructor since his rates are so low, and also he has many things he can teach me (and not only on clarinet, but when I feel like learning sax and flute too since he's excellent on those as well). But I am going to take two or three lessons with this other gentleman since my community band leader holds him in such high regards and I trust his opinion. If his teaching style clicks with me and I do learn rapidly and well, I'll consider switching over. But I'm not gonna count my chickens before they hatch.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-01-25 15:37
Sometimes you hear (not the same as get) contradictory advice from two teahcers. It can make learning more difficult.
If you have a long term teacher, an occasional master class, private or otherwise should not be a conflict.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-01-26 10:32
I suggest Mr E once per month (no other lessons), rather than Mr B once a week. If Mr E is so good, and you are ready for that sort of thing, I doubt weekly lessons are the way to proceed. It probably needs a bigger span between lessons to get to what Mr E will deliver.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-01-26 12:21
I can recall an instance when I could not cheat Harold Wright at all...one thing for sure it was a revelation to me how well he understood players in the way they assimilated and learned material...
The Slow movement of the Brahms Clarinet Quintet was the piece on the table for the lesson...so everything came crashing for me around the gypsty music, mainly due to the fact I had not worked out the counting of the 16th and 32cd passages...
so Mr. Wright said I had a week of individual practice and it was time for me to work on that section alone. Well, being new to the area I decided I would do a bit of sight seeing in Boston and hang out with some of the students...well a week went by and I realized the lesson was up....so I went in trying to wing it so to speak...
Mr. Wright looked at me and said I did not spend any time of it and it was time for me to practice it(10 minutes into the lesson) and then he said"Please don't waste my time and your time". After that, I did what he said and learned a hell of a lot more...
David Dow
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-01-26 15:55
The way I see it, if two people can accomplish similar results, but one does it at half the cost of another, who would you rather go to? The person who charges less, right? Personally, I think most private music teachers who charge over $50/h are simply being greedy and not really worth the money. You can probably think of examples; I have a few of mine.
Basically: go with or look for a really good teacher who charges rates that are within reason. I for one would not be willing to pay $80/h for a private lesson. I know I am willing to pay up to $50/lesson, though I tend to think that between $30-40/h is reasonable given where I live. Anything below $30 I think means the teacher loses money.
Many private teachers, unfortunately (at least where I live), do not seem to understand what most people are willing to pay for private lessons, especially for a beginner or a high school/college student paying for lessons themselves though a part-time job. Both my former and current teachers I think are really good teachers; my former teacher charged me $40/h, my current one is charging $30/h.
But, I don’t know why your community band director is trying to encourage you to take a lesson with his friend, especially if he thinks you are a good player already. If he really wants you to try a lesson or two with him, perhaps encourage him to pay for 1/2 or even all of it! :-)
Personally, I’d feel like I was risking the loyalty established between myself and a teacher I was really loyal to by trying a different teacher (other than when the circumstances force it, such as a teacher moving away or quitting teaching), so I’d simply tell him to stop encouraging you to see his friend.
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-01-26 16:51
A lot of us clarinetists have reputations for being cheap. I haven't figured out why yet.
The bottom line should be how well you progress with a teacher. If you stop progressing, is money the point? Your own time is worth money, even if it doesn't seem so just now. Look at yourself a couple of years from now: if you can progress faster with another teacher who costs more and you end up better than you would otherwise have been, isn't that worth the effort?
I have had friends who seriously offended their teachers by "jumping ship", and it was not easy. On the other hand, all of them progressed much better with their new teachers. Few are full time players, but pretty much all have stayed with their music into adulthood. Their friends who stayed with the inexpensive teachers aren't playing clarinet any more.
This is not to cast any aspersions upon your current teacher, who may be a fine player and teacher, or upon long-term prospects for your teacher's other students. It is just my opinion that you should go for the option that will teach you the most in the least amount of time.
I jumped ship at age 18. My old teacher was an old friend of my parents, a really great guy, and a super player. My parents blanched at what my new teacher charged. But I got more in 6 months of working with him, things that I have carried with me ever since, that I could never have gotten from my old teacher. He was not happy about the change, but realized that I needed some other input, and remained a friend. I got lucky there.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-01-26 17:05
"The way I see it, if two people can accomplish similar results.... The person who charges less, right? Personally, I think most private music teachers who charge over $50/h are simply being greedy and not really worth the money."
Remember, lessons with different people can vary dramatically, that is like saying a Hyundai and a BMW both do the same thing, so it is a waste to spend the extra money, the Bavarian company is just greedy. Another issue is that the teacher charges based on the market, what they feel they are worth, what the market can bear, and their own expenses. Hey, they need to pay their bills too. I can also say that I have taken a variety of lessons in my life and the most expensive happened to be from a highly sought after teacher and they were the best lessons of my life. Besides, nobody forces anyone to go for the lessons.
"But, I don’t know why your community band director is trying to encourage you to take a lesson with his friend, especially if he thinks you are a good player already."
He may see tremendous potential and feel that he may grow even more as a player.
sfalexi-My best suggestion would be to try it and see if it works for you.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-26 18:09
Alexi,
I have hesitated to offer MHO on this thread but I am struck by your remark in the first paragraph of your first message on this string that:
"Well, I now have regularly scheduled lessons with my old High school instructor. Luckily, he doesn't go on the internet very often and I doubt checks these pages so I'm in the clear so far (or am I?)"
I would not, personally, begin such a message string with so much descriptive information about you, your teacher, and the whole situation. There is just too much of a chance of offending the involved parties. Also, didn't we just go through a series of questions from you about taking lessons from this person a few weeks ago and now you are changing?
Maybe I have things wrong but it would seem that you need to consider slowing up a little bit here and doing a private analysis of the situation. It is no good to be on again and off again with too many things in your life. There is way too much stress involved.
Relax a little and things will seem clearer. Pondering is always a good thing to do when you are making an important decision.
HRL
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-26 19:39
Hank,
Yeah. I was just joking around about being in the clear (since I knew I would tell him eventually) and I feel bad about changing my mind every other week however I am excited about lessons and new situations keep seeming to pop up. First I learned about the two, and then in the older post it was said that they both seemed like fine players so I obviously chose the cheaper one (being a college student and trying to save money).
Then I'm fine and dandy and my community band leader keeps retelling me (not pressuring me persay) but telling me that this other man works wonders and how all his students are in the top honors bands and how he really strongly recommends him more than anyone else in my area. He also stresses that while he agrees I could learn from the other guy, he feels I would learn more rapidly and with a better understanding of the clarinet and music from the gentleman he is recommending. So now I think twice about him. And in the meantime, since I didn't think it was that big a deal a few weeks ago after my post trying to decide which one in the first place, so I told my current instructor that I wanted to set up regularly scheduled lessons once a week for an indefinite period of time.
It's just tough when you do a little research and settle on one choice, and then new information comes to light and you now feel the need to make SURE you made the right one. And also I do worry about how that would make my current instructor feel since I don't want to burn any bridges down behind me. I don't want him to take it as an insult as though I feel he's not "good enough" to teach me or that I'm "beyond" what he can teach and need someone with better credentials. I may need his help with a piece or something else in the future and God forbid he remember me as the person who was "too good" for him.
You're right Hank. There is a large amount of stress involved (as is with most college students to begin with, let alone those with hobbies that take such a significant amount of time and dedication). Just another test of life that I have to get through. I've made up my mind and I'm going to try taking one or two lessons from the other gentleman and see how/what he can teach me. Then I will have to make a decision, leave one behind, and charge forward once and for all.
Alexi
PS - And please, for the love of God, noone suggest anyone else that I should 'take a look at'!!!
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-01-26 19:40)
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-26 19:45
GBK perhaps???? (Sorry, Alexi! He lives too far away from you anyway!)
Henry
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-26 20:08
Alexi,
Plying the music scene NJ myself, I've got a pretty good idea of whom you speak, but we'll keep it on a no-names basis. If you are serious about the clarinet, and are at all accomplished as a player, your current instructor will respect the decision to start taking lessons with Mr. "E". In fact, if you are truly motivated, your current teacher would expect nothing less of you. I suspect, if you continue to derive value from Mr. "B" as well, he would find it flattering that you want to continue with him, and will also understand if you believe you've gotten what you need from him that it is time to move on. Just be honest and open about your goals. Take the opportunity to study with Mr. "E" and absorb everything you can.
Meri, on behalf of those of us who are qualified to get (and do get) more than $50/h (Canadian or otherwise), if you don't see the value, don't study with us. Do you pick your doctors and attorneys on the same basis? That is the market rate for the top-tier players to share their education and experience. The top symphony players fetch multiples of that, and it is completely worth it if a student is serious about going somewhere on the instrument. It is an investment in the future no different than university tuition. I also know for an absolute fact that many of us will find ways to accomodate high-potential students who do not have the financial means to pay the freight.
It is only expensive if you don't derive good value for the money spent. $30/hour wasted on lessons of little or no value is far more expensive than $80 spent with someone talented, accomplished, and capable of imparting his experience on a student.
Good luck. M.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-26 20:48
Now you got my ears up! I'm also "plying" the New Jersey scene and I also have a "Mr.B" as my teacher. He is excellent, IMHO. It's probably not the same Mr.B as Alexi's, as he charges me slightly more than $30 (although that could be related to the fact that Alexi and I are in different financial situations). But who is this Mr.E, I wonder?! Hmmmm.....
By the way, whether $80/hr is reasonable or not is hard to say. If the man is a genius and you are preparing for a professional musical career, it may be a bargain. If you play just for a hobby and are financially strapped, it seems steep to me. But then....I am a Dutchman!
Henry
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-01-27 17:23
There are some excellent thoughts expressed here, especially from the more experienced players and/or teachers. One thing I've learned in life is that there are very important principles that must be adhered to in order to have a successful life, and to close as few doors behind yourself as possible - one of them is loyalty, but another is being up front with people - kindly of course.
It may be wise to stay with one teacher for awhile before jumping to another unless you just can't get along. However, those of us who've taken lessons for a few years realize that it's important to have different teachers - each has something different to contribute to our progress because of their experience. If you finally decide that you want to go with a different teacher, even for a few lessons, you must discuss this with your present teacher. It doesn't matter if he's OK with it or not, but it should be mentioned to him. As has been mentioned above, a good teacher knows that he or she doesn't have it all and will sometimes even encourage a long-time student to go with someone else for awhile.
News gets around and your present teacher will find out sooner or later. You don't want to burn your bridges behind you.
Decisions...they're usually not easy to make, but don't expect to make the absolute right decision every time you do something! Then you'll never get anywhere, ever.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-01-27 17:34
I currently pay more than $50 per hour and I have learned much much more quickly. I am glad that this master teacher (the teacher of two of my son's teacher's - the good two) is working with such a beginner as me.
Under my son's first good teacher I was ignored during my part of the lesson and she never could explain what she wanted me to do. This might have been the way I learn, but I seem to be getting better with this master teacher.
My son's current teacher was also a student of Mr. M, and only takes a few (like two) students since he is also a conductor/college prof. I got a half dozen lessons short lessons with him and he is a wonderful teacher. He would not make the time for me after a few lessons, which he refused to charge me for as I was enrolled in his wind ensemble.
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