 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-01-19 11:11
Some of you will already know that I'm working on the 2nd mvt of Weber's 'Grand Duo Concertant' for playing in a music festival next month. Most of it is going fine (we'll draw a discreet veil over the demisemiquaver run in bar 17 - I'm getting better but it's still a bit dodgy!).
What I'd like advice on, please, is how to fade the sound of the last note into silence at the very end. I've tried all sorts of different ways and once or twice it has worked and has sounded just as I'd like it to, but when I try to do it again in the same way I can't recapture it! What tends to happen is that it the note sounds softly in the first of the two tied bars, but for most of the last bar you can hear air rather than sound (and of course there's supposed to be a pause after that!). I've tried playing the last few bars a little louder so that the final note is louder to start with, but it doesn't seem to help much. Can anyone give me any advice?
Joanna Brown
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-19 11:33
Wow. I really need to brush up on my british (demisemiquaver sort of trips me up.) I too will hear more air than note when I fade away from something. I don't know if this is necessarily a bad thing. I think it comes from much air support (which is a very good thing). However you have to take into account that there will be an audience. And the audience probably will be back far enough not to hear the slight movement of "air" and will only hear the note fade out. My best advice is to find someone to be your "audience" and have them listen to you from where the audience will be standing. Then they will tell you if you faded out too quickly or if they were able to tell the air passing, etc. Many times you will find that little things that bother you won't even be heard by the audience (such as the fact that sometimes I leak a little air out the corner of my mouth when I play. Noone has picked up on it aside from myself and my teacher.)
Also, remember that you will be playing with a piano player. And so you may have to be a little louder than when you play by yourself, in a room. For instance, while the dynamic may be marked "p" at the spot where you begin to fade out (I don't know what it is not having played this piece, but bear with me), you may have to play it slightly louder than that in order to better mesh with the dynamic of the piano. And consequentially, this will make your fading out slightly easier.
Another way to fade out with less air is to slightly decrease the air support while slightly increasing the pressure of your jaw on the reed. This will keep the note at the same dynamic, but I'd probably be a little worried about tuning (it can get a little sharper/flatter if there's either too much jaw pressure/too little air support) However if you can practice with a tuner you'll find that this will get rid of the excess air running through the instrument while still sounding a good tone.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-01-19 12:34)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-01-19 12:47
The best thing to do is to practice fading notes every day as part of your warm up. Do it over a count of 20 seconds so that it is controlled. Keep up the speed of the air and embouchure support. Start on comfortable notes in the lower range and then expand to other ranges little by little. Good luck.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-19 15:28
I'll go Ed even one better. When you practice long tones: start pp, slowly increase to ff, then go away to pp and beyond. Do this often enough, trying to fade to nothingness, and vary your technique until the sound is just what you want. Then practice doing it that way.
'
Now, doesn't that sound simple? And don't you just know it isn't?
Regards,
John
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-01-19 18:00
"I'll go Ed even one better"
Darn it, I didn't know it was a competition! ;-)
The reason I only suggested fading out was so that Joanna would concentrate on that end of things. Usually I recommend that my students go from pp to ff and then back. When they have some control, I ask that they begin with only air for a couple of seconds, bringing in the tone from nothing and then to fff. The after a breath from fff all the way down to nothing, ending with air. The reason for this is so that they become sensitive to the point at which the tone begins (and ends).
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-19 20:31
demisemiquavers ... thank goodness the British understand these terms too!!
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-01-19 20:31)
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Author: Renato
Date: 2004-01-19 21:18
One thing I learned during a flute workshop -- and that might apply to clarinet playing too -- was, make the "diminuendo" but think "crescendo"! Yes, fade away, but "feel it" as though you were actually doing the opposite. Why? Because it helps you keep the air stream and embouchure firm and prevent a drop in intonation.
Any thoughts about this?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-01-20 00:31
Exactly, Renato... except that in clarinet, insufficient airstream causes a rise (sharpness) in intonation, in contrast to flatness in the flute. In any wind instrument (afaik), a steady airstream is MOST important when playing quietly.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-01-20 10:07
Thanks for your advice, everyone! I've just been practising, and have tried out almost everything that people have said - I haven't been able to try the 'guinea-pig audience' idea yet, but I'm going away for a weekend's recorder consort playing on Friday, so I shall get my friends there to listen to me in one of the bigger rooms and see what it sounds like!
Hopefully it'll work by the date of my festival performance. I absolutely love playing the piece, so it's a real pleasure to work on it.
Thanks again to all those who offered advice,
Jo 
Joanna Brown
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-20 10:56
Sounds like you might be using hard reeds- you may not think so, but try just a fraction softer and with some practise itmight just improve. Also, don't give that note too much, other wise it won't be too in tune!
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-01-20 11:06
NB I meant I'll be playing to my 'guinea pigs' on my clarinet, not on recorder. Just in case there's any confusion!
Joanna Brown
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-20 16:31
I noticed that as well Jack, that the harder the reed the more "airy" your soft dynamics are going to get. It's very noticeable when you compare it to a softer reed. Of course it'll take you a few minutes to loosen up your embouchure and adjust to it, however I (opposite of Mr. Cohler) feel that for me it's much harder to play a reed that is softer and I feel as though I lose a lot of my tone and control when trying too soft a reed. I think that after your audience hears you, you'll see that the sound of the air is a lot less noticeable to them than to you.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-01-20 16:32)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-01-20 18:51
Alexi,
I think there is a difference between a reed that is the proper strength to match a mouthpiece and one that is "too" soft. I know from personal experience that changing from a reed that is too hard for a mouthpiece to one that matches the mouthpiece can solve (or at least mitigate) a "white" (or "pink") noise problem without introducing others. Changing from a reed that matches a mouthpiece to a softer one may also reduce the white/pink noise but can introduce other (perhaps more serious) problems. I don't know what mouthpiece/reed combination Joanna is currently using but LeWhite and I are simply suggesting that, if practice doesn't seem to be solving her problem, she might take a look at that combination.
Somewhere in the thread I excerpted, but perhaps not in the specific messages I listed, someone else argued that they had "less control" with a softer reed. Cohler pointed out (IMO correctly) that they were confusing ability to control with the amount of control needed. He actually agrees with you that it takes a greater amount of effort to control a softer reed but points out that, because the softer reed admits greater variation, it actually allows for a wider range of control -- one can do more with it. Perhaps this is why some jazz players prefer more open mouthpieces with softer reeds. But before decide to disagree with him, read his messages . He has give these issues a great deal of thought and articulates his conclusions much better than I can paraphrase them. Also read the comments of those who disagree. I included some points made by Karl Krelove and Floyd Williams. There are others in the Archives. Given that most U.S. orchestral players use medium close to medium tip openings with medium to medium hard reeds, his position is not universally accepted.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "loss of tone." I suspect you are not saying that you have less tone but rather that you (and perhaps your audience) find your tone less pleasing when your reed is too soft for your mouthpiece. (Please correct me if I am not interpreting you correctly, here.) I don't think that is inconsistent with what Cohler is saying. Rather, I think he would say that, if you are using a close/hard mouthpiece/reed combination, you will get white/pink noise even if the reed is the proper strength for the mouthpiece. Changing to a softer reed, by itself, may reduce the white/pink noise but introduce other problems because the mouthpiece is now too close for the reed. His point is that, if you also adopt a more open mouthpiece, you can arrive at a mouthpiece/reed combination that reduces the white/pink noise without necessarily degrading your tone or range.
Cohler admits that the "white" (or "pink") noise is frequently masked by other instruments in an orchestral setting and by the clarinet tone, itself, at louder volumes. He argues, however, that it can be quite noticeable in soft chamber music passages and, that even when masked, it creates undesirable harmonics. Whether the audience hears the air as much as the performer isn't really relevant. If they hear it at all or even note it subconsciously, it can have a negative impact on their overall reaction to a performance. I believe (unscientific, I know!) that the difference between a competent performance and a great one is the accumulation of many subtle details.
One may not agree with everything Cohler has to say, but I think he is worth reading and his ideas worth exploring. YMMV.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-20 19:20
Jack,
I will definitely make sure to go over the archives when I get a chance later today but in response to your above post, you interpretted my poorly written thoughts correctly.Quote:
think there is a difference between a reed that is the proper strength to match a mouthpiece and one that is "too" soft. I know from personal experience that changing from a reed that is too hard for a mouthpiece to one that matches the mouthpiece can solve (or at least mitigate) a "white" (or "pink") noise problem without introducing others. Changing from a reed that matches a mouthpiece to a softer one may also reduce the white/pink noise but can introduce other (perhaps more serious) problems. . . . His point is that, if you also adopt a more open mouthpiece, you can arrive at a mouthpiece/reed combination that reduces the white/pink noise without necessarily degrading your tone or range. I guess you figured me out! I play a Gigliotti P which is a close mouthpiece (very close) with a size 4.0 reed. When I played a 3.5 and 3.75 on this mouthpiece I found that it wasn't a good match. And I'm currently looking at other mouthpieces. Ones that are highly regarded by clarinetists on this board and professionals and (coincidentally?) are slightly more open than mine to try out to see if they may be a better match for me and my embouchure. I really do love my Gigliotti, but if there's another mouthpiece that will allow me even MORE expression, articulation, and tone colors then the search would be well worth it! Quote:
Cohler admits that the "white" (or "pink") noise is frequently masked by other instruments in an orchestral setting and by the clarinet tone, itself, at louder volumes. He argues, however, that it can be quite noticeable in soft chamber music passages and, that even when masked, it creates undesirable harmonics. Whether the audience hears the air as much as the performer isn't really relevant. If they hear it at all or even note it subconsciously, it can have a negative impact on their overall reaction to a performance. This is very true. I thought that perhaps the audience may not hear it at all, and perhaps they won't if she is accompanied and has a great distance, etc. etc. (variables), however I do have certain recordings that the above directly applies to. Most noteably a recording of the Weber Quintet by the Berlin Octet with Herbert Stahr on clarinet. I think he's a very good clarinetist, but I heard leaking of air from his mouthpiece, particularly at louder dynamics. It took a very long time for me to accept it and ignore it, and even longer just to figure out what that extra "noise" was! (for the longest time I thought I had a bad CD or bad speakers in my car)
So to Joanna, it may be even more critical that this "noise" not be heard by your audience. Especially considering that it's for a competition and that this is a one-time shot to impress them.
Thanks for the tips and brief summaries of various points from the archives. I'll definitely be checking them out later on today.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-01-20 21:06
I'm playing on a Peter Eaton 'Elite' mpc with Vandoren V12 2 1/2 reeds. I don't really want to change reed strength at this stage because I feel that the rest of the piece sounds OK on the whole - it's just that last note, and it doesn't sound absolutely horrific - I just find it difficult to fade away slowly enough! Thanks for all this input - I shall have to read and digest it at leisure...
PS I've heard of white noise, but what's pink noise? ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
Joanna Brown
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-20 21:14
White noise's power doubles every octave (+3db/octave) since each octave doubles the frequency of the previous octave.
Pink noise's power stays constant per octave (+0db/octave); this is normally accomplished with a -3db/octave filter.
Pink noise is often used for testing acoustics (halls, rooms, speakers, etc.) since the power band is flat.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-01-21 01:26
Hi Joanna,
If you're playing Vandoren V12 2.5's, I think we can safely rule out the hypothesis that you are using reeds that are too hard -- even if the Eaton is extremely open (which it may be, by U.S. standards, anyway -- according to his website, he considers 1.23 mm to be mid-range).
Sounds like it's just a matter of practicing.
Best regards,
jnk
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