 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-10-10 17:32
Recently there has been much discussion of clarinet quality on the BB so that it might be useful to create a set of criteria that would help to identify a good or poor quality instrument. Therefore some criteria (below) are suggested to start with and you are invited to add items that you consider to be characteristics of a good (or bad) instrument. No brand names please.
Clarinet Quality Criteria
A clarinet of poor design, workmanship, and materials quality will not stay in adjustment
Durability (e.g., pads should not need to be replaced within the first two years)
Forged keys (not cast, which break when bent)
No lost motion (“play”) in keys
Keys work smoothly, freely, lightly.
Springs are balanced so that keys push evenly
Heights of keys and rings are as short as possible without sacrificing intonation and clear response
Wooden bodies, in addition to being properly seasoned, should have reinforced tenon joints and metal or rubber linings where warping is a possibility
Tenon joints must fit securely
Repairable; i.e., designed and made from materials that are suited to being repaired if necessary
No unusual/excessive maintenance requirements
Holes and keys must be angled so that muscle cramping is minimized
An adjustable thumb rest is desirable
No out of tune scales
Ease of response throughout the entire normal range with adjacent notes that speak and sound alike
Resistance is balanced from note to note
Good tone quality without unusual effort
Playable in tune, with good tone, at extremes of volume, throughout its normal range
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-10-10 20:45
Hans -
I think your list down through "adjustable thumb rest" is useful in deciding whether to consider a particular model at all, although I'm not sure that any instrument other than the Buffet Elite (which has very thin walls) has reinforced tenons, and I know of no instrument other than the older Buffets with an articulated C#/G# that has metal or rubber socket linings. I'm willing to be enlightened.
However, I think that when you test an actual instrument, you've got the criteria in reverse order. For me (repeating what I said a year or so back), it goes like this:
(1) INTONATION. This is by far more important than everything else combined. A clarinet that plays out of tune is useless, no matter how fine its other characteristics. While intonation is of course affected by mouthpieces and reeds, and slight errors can be adjusted, the intonation of an instrument has to be very nearly perfect to begin with. Bring an electronic tuner and a friend to watch it, so you won't make adjustments to accommodate flaws in the instrument. Be ruthless. If you have a dozen new clarinets in front of you, you can probably eliminate half of them on this criterion alone.
(2) EVENNESS OF SCALE. Each note must be just as loud and have the same color as the ones on either side of it. You must be able to play without notes popping out or being dull. Test by slowly playing small segments of a chromatic scale -- 4 or 5 notes at a time. Again, after-market tweaks can make small improvements, but it has to be right at the outset.
(3) QUICK RESPONSE -- the ability to make wide slurs without blips, begin any note cleanly and move from note to note quickly and seamlessly.
(4) OTHER QUALITIES. Only when you eliminate instruments that don't have the first three qualities can you go on to the rest. In no particular order, I think of beauty of tone, flexibility of tone (i.e., the ability to make many good tones), a comfortable amount of resistance and physical ergonomics.
(5) FINAL DECISION. Finally, you depend on gestalt -- how well the instrument accommodates to how you play -- how much it lets you find new ways to play. An instrument can have every quality described above and still not reach out and embrace you. You need to feel good when you play it. It needs to feel like an extension of your body and breath.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-10 21:09
Just a few more suggestions to check when buying:
Quality case that provides protection as well as having the instrument fit securely when case is closed.
A case that provides enough room for "extras" but also has the bell separated from the lower joint.
A dealer that will provide free adjustments/minor maintenance for the first 30 or 60 days.
High quality cork on tenons and keys - no artificial cork products.
Assembly and disassembly should be smooth, with no binding of joints ...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-10 21:25
GBK, I agree except for the case emphasis. It would be great if clarinet mfgrs. supplied cases at least equal in quality and features to the instruments themselves but I personally would prefer to purchase the case separately to meet my own requirements. I do believe,however, that for beginners instruments the case should be sturdy and functional in a generic way. Personally, I don't think an adjustable thumb rest is a necessary as-supplied feature of any clarinet.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-10 22:06
Bob D...I think it is not too much to ask instrument makers to supply a case that keeps the clarinet secure and in place when the case is closed. High quality latches are also a must.
Far too often I see beginners show up here for lessons with instruments that are so loosely fit in their case that their saxes/clarinets constantly need attention for minor repair, bent keys, adjustments, reseating of pads, etc...
If the instrument moves in the case when the case is shaken, the case is not protecting the instrument...GBK
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-10 23:49
This is very constructive. There are many out there considering a purchase and use this board to help in formulating their decision so we should try and be professional/ informed. The purchase of a good quality, for the price, instrument goes a long way to encouraging beginners to keep at it rather than falling by the wayside. I would also suggest a criteria on value for money as this is often a consideration in peoples minds.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-11 09:27
Somebody mentioned balanced springs, meaning equal force for all all keys/fingers? This is NOT appropriate.
1. Keys that are normally closed NEED stronger springs than those that are normally open.
2. Often a finger presses against a single spring, but for a different fingering, must press against two springs. So evenness cannot be achieved.
However there is a lot involved in spring design, involving diameter-to-length ratio for any given spring material that is destined to apply any given force, for any given key travel.
The design repercussions of altering spring length are considerable, even affecting placement of posts to accommodate requisite spring length.
Other geometry factors, and friction issues affect the operation of flat springs, but thickness-to-length ratio is still a major consideration. One of the worst-designed flat springs commonly seen (felt!) is in the side keys of Buescher clarinets, and because of the geometry, there is little practical that the technician can do about it.
Design of spring cradles (to minimise friction), and their distance from their respective hinge axes is also significant.
Manufacturers seem typically to give only superficial consideration to the spring issues.
Without good design, the finger force required towards the end of a key's travel becomes considerably greater that required at the beginning of the key's travel, giving an 'unresponsive', 'sluggish' feel. This sluggishness drastically affects a professional player's acceptance of an instrument. It is my impression that few repair technicians have much awareness of spring issues.
Excellent spring design IS possible with high quality stainless steel springs, so I think there is little excuse for breaking, rusting, steel needle springs in modern instrument design.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2003-10-11 10:20
when i pick a clarinet, i would first play each of them a little and imediately see if i like the sound of it.that is the most important thing, imo, even more important than intonation. i actually wouldn't mind if a few notes are just a bit out of tune if the sound is better. usually intonation problems can be fixed but the sound will stay the way it is.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-11 13:41
I think this is a very important post for I believe there are many moms and dads who are looking for an instrument for their child.
Although the above information is extremely important, from my own personal experience, many first time buyers would not understand the intricacies of good quality clarinet design. IMO, for many, this is a whole new world. I had one mom email me directly after I gave her some advice on how to do a "search" on this BB for a particular instrument and the impression I received from her email was that she was overwhelmed by all of the information!!!!
So, I propose the following:
1) That a mechanism be instituted wherein a list of current acceptable makes and models be constructed. This, IMO, would eliminate the necessity of first time buyers of becoming "all knowing" about design characteristics.
2) That this list be compiled by those who are regarded as "experts" who repair clarinets on a daily basis as well as by those who play these instruments on a regular basis and are very familiar with its playing characteristics.
3) That 3 separate lists be compiled: student models, intermediate models, and professional models. Also, IMO, simply stating to stay with the "Big 4" is simply not enough. I believe the "make" AND "model" should be on the "official recommended list".
4) That a list be compiled of the recognized "experts" on this BB along with their email addresses so that prospective buyers may contact them directly. Obviously, these "experts" should be volunteers who are willing to offer their technical expertise to those in need of edification. What a wonderful way for someone to share their knowledge and help another get a "good start"!!!
IMO, simply being instructed to "do a search" is not the best answer.
Because it appears that instrument quality is varying due to changes in manufacturing design and construction, this list would, by necessity, need to be updated or at least reviewed on a monthly basis so that those who are searching will get the most up-to-date and accurate information.
For those of us who have played for a while, discussing design characterists can be very revealing and enlightening. My main concern is for those who don't know the difference between "a flat and a needle spring". However, even with that being said, sometimes even I am amazed at how much technical information needs to be taken into consideration in order to make a good purchase.
I am grateful to those who "toot their own horn" by revealing how many years they have been playing in orchestra and studio recording settings. This helps me to recognize, (at least for myself), who some of the "experts" are. For example, I am very thankful that GBK started the post on the mpc work done by David Spiegelthal. IMO, this BB recognition is vital for me to know who the "experts" are.
All of the above are strickly my opinions. They represent "rough ideas" which will have to be refined as time goes by.
My hope is that more of us will "do our part" in promoting the clarinet for the wonderful instrument that it is.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-11 14:31
Good point about liability, Mark.
As to the beginner's page, after reading numerous posts about the B12, I'm not sure I would recommend it to anyone.
I most certainly would not recommend the B45 for a beginner mpc. (Yet, it's listed on the beginner's page.)
So what shall we tell people??? Go do a search??? Is that the only "legal" answer we're left with besides asking for opinions on the BB??
If so, then, IMO, moms and dads will continue to be "overwhelmed" by doing searches and may simply give up and take a chance by buying "the most cost effective" instrument available (usually from eBay).
By the way, the mom who emailed me about being "overwhelmed" did just that...she "won" a bid on a very inexpensive instrument which DID NOT WORK when she got it. She wanted to buy one of my instruments, but, I advised her that it would be more economical for her to have her eBay horn repaired. (Which I believe she did.)
Somehow...I still think there has to be a better way. But, maybe there isn't.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-11 15:05
Dan wrote:
> Good point about liability, Mark.
>
> As to the beginner's page, after reading numerous posts about
> the B12, I'm not sure I would recommend it to anyone.
And many, many competent repairpeople have no qualms at all about recommending the B12, along with a large number of very competent and well known pedagogues recommending a B45 for a beginning student. I did extensive research before putting that page together - a lot more techs contributed than appear on the BBoard.
There's no end to opinions ... so a page like that, well researched (it is) is a start. I'll always have someone disagreeing with it ...
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-11 15:14
Thanks for the info Mark. I'm glad I ventured out and "blundered" a little because in so doing I certainly learned a lot.
Thanks again for all that you continue to do for us.
Much appreciated.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-11 15:55
What an interesting thread/posts, I've been lurking here, lots of great comments by pro players AND pro repairers re: cl selection, TKS!, lots of problems here!! I'm a bit reminded of the "preacher's problem" as to when/where/how to NOT go beyond preaching into meddling. Had a case in point not long back, where several of us were asked for opinions re: 3 new Buff Vintages, where we picked out different ones as best!! We all did agree that these horns should have been "tweaked" , maybe not to the Brannen/Moenig/etc [individual-player?] degree, as we found [our own] faults with all, before attempting our"judging testing"!! Just thots, from reading. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-11 16:07
Dan wrote:
> Thanks for the info Mark. I'm glad I ventured out and
> "blundered" a little because in so doing I certainly learned a
> lot.
 I sure as heck don't think you've "blundered" one bit!
One of the things that gets lost sometimes is the ratio of posters to readers; I'm constantly amazed at how many people read this BBoard! Posters, by definition, are more outgoing than many people, not afraid to "wade into the fray". Many people quietly sit by the sidelines and read what the more gregarious of us write, and try & form some semblance of reason out of the whole thing. It's difficult, because the information is somewhat skewed by the nature of posters - we tend to be loud, outgoing, and sometimes argumentative people - we know we're broadcasting to tens of thousands around the world, and we really don't care ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) .
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Author: cujo
Date: 2003-10-12 01:30
All that written above and of course it must play LIKE NEW when purchased new. Fixing a new instrument no matter what quality or name it has is quite disturbing.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-10-12 06:03
I apologize in advance for what I know is going to be a very lengthy post but Mark has touched a sensitive nerve for me -- the recommendation of the Vandoren B45 as a suitable mouthpiece for beginners. I think the B45 can be a perfectly acceptable mouthpiece for someone whose embouchure has developed. Also, I believe Mark when he says he performed extensive research before putting his "recommendations" page together. I would also note that Mark doesn't list the B45 among his personal recommendations but, rather, after identifying recommended clarinets for beginners, states, "There are a number of mouthpieces that are good matches for these instruments; the Vandoren B45, 5RV, and 5RV Lyre are very common." While widespread use does not necessarily imply suitability, I think the implied connection is there. Where the B45 is concerned, I disagree. And, while I find considerable consensus regarding the other mouthpieces listed, including the 5RV and the 5RV lyre, I find considerable disagreement where the B45 is concerned, largely because its tip opening (1.19), even coupled with a medium long facing, makes it very resistant. The fact that some (many) students, including Mark, have succeeded starting with a B45 is not necessarily compelling evidence either. I seriously doubt any of Mark's panel would recommend the metal clarinet and (literally) no-name plastic mouthpiece that I started on 45 years ago but I learned and I'm still playing. And, undoubtedly, some good players will develop from those who start on the CSO's often denigrated in threads on this board. When they do, however, IMO it will be in spite of, rather than because of their initial setup.
Mark, I don't know who you surveyed before drawing your conclusions. You do acknowledge publicly 5 people who contributed but I assume you gathered the opinions of many more. Of the 5, I know that Roger Garrett has been an outspoken critic of the B45 as a beginner mouthpiece (even, I think, before he started facing mouthpieces). Dee Hayes, on the other hand, has often recommended it in the past. In fact, her daughter used one as a beginner with apparent success. Even so, given one of her most recent posts, I'm not sure she hasn't changed her mind. In that message, she notes that she has, "found the B45s to be fine. However, the player needs to control it. If you don't, you'll have problems. Basically, a more open mouthpiece allows more flexibility but unless the player can control it, you can have tonal problems." While not a professional teacher like Roger, Dee is no beginner so the fact that she finds the mouthpiece playable doesn't surprise me. Beginners usually take some time to develop the kind of control Dee is talking about, however.
I did a little research of my own on this topic today and anyone who likes can replicate or expand on it. I searched both the Klarinet archive and this list for "B45 beginner" (without the quotes) to see who had addressed this issue in the past and what they said. The research is not scientific, it is anecdotal. FWIW, however, here are the results:
From the clarinet archive:
There were 114 messages returned from the search. I read through all of them. Many did not actually give recommendations (and some were duplicate recommendations from the same poster) but there were 28 different recommendations. Of these, 16 recommended against the B45, and 10 gave positive recommdations. Two others stated a clear preference for the Hite Premier over the B45 but did not say whether they thought the B45 was acceptable or not.
Of the 16 who recommended against the B45, I can identify at least 8 as professionals including:
Richard Bush (repair tech)
Bill Hausmann (works in a music store)
Nancy Buckman (teacher)
Roger Garrett (college prof)
Jim Freeman (teacher)
Pete Temko (teacher)
Carl Shexneyder (college prof)
Clark Fobes (musician, repair tech, mouthpiece maker)
The others were either beginners, parents of beginners or more advanced players relaying unpleasant experiences starting on a B45.
Of the 11 who recommended the B45, at least five were professionals:
Chris Zello
Michael Moors (teacher - initially recommended the B45 but later changed his recommendation because of "inconsistencies in manufacture and expense" -- perhaps he belongs in the other column)
Ed Lacy
Kevin Fay ("Ok, I guess, but twice the cost" [of a Fobes or Hite student mouthpiece])
Christina Alexander
The rest were either apparently high school students reporting personal success starting on the B45 or adults who reported a successful child, or who liked the mouthpiece personally and thought it would be appropriate for a beginner.
From the Bulletin Board archive:
My search yielded 84 messages. While, I read most of these, I did not read multiple posts from the same poster once his/her position was clear or messages whose "excerpt" suggested they really had nothing to do with a recommendation for beginners. I found 16 new recommendations (i.e., individuals not in the Klarinet list survey), 8 pro and 8 con. (I have not counted myself in either "survey," BTW.)
Most of the "favorables" came from novices who were using or had used the B45. One person (Viva) reported a recommendation by her (saxophonist) teacher.
Among the negatives, are
Dan Shusta and
Forrest Aten
A couple of others, "Katfish" and "Ed" may also be teachers -- can't tell for sure. The others appear to be students. One ("Scott") reports that his teachers, one from Julliard and one from Manhattan School don't like the B45 for beginners.
The primary reasons for negative recommendations were: (1) mouthpiece too resistant because of large tip opening, (2) inconsistency in quality, and (3) price twice as much a student mouthpieces by Fobes, Hite, et al. (though this latter reason was only the sole reason for a few negatives). The only person to give reasons for recommending the B45 was Christina Alexander who noted, among other factors including cost, consistency of manufacture and reliability, that the open B45 is good for embouchure development.
At best then, I think there is considerable disagreement regarding whether this mouthpiece is suitable for beginners. On the other hand, in all the messages I read, where the student mouthpieces by Fobes, Hite, Pyne and Ridenour were mentioned (also where the much closer 5RV and 5RV lyre were mentioned), the recommendations were always positive (except for an occasional reference to the relative cost of the Vandorens). As a result, I believe that including the B45 among these others as a recommendation is a disservice to otherwise uninformed parents looking for a mouthpiece for their children -- particularly given the fact that the B45 is so widely found in local music stores whereas the others may not be.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2003-10-12 06:09)
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-10-12 14:06
Ken:
Thanks so much for your wonderful list of criteria for trying out new instruments. I've always "told" my students and friends what to do when trying out new horns, but your list puts the right words down on the page.
I'll use it, with your permission?
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-12 15:01
Jack,
Thanks for your additional research.
The five people mentioned in the article were about 10% of the people I asked and got responses from - I didn't use any postings in Klarinet or the BBoard as background material - of the names you mentioned, a number are mouthpiece makers, and of course I didn't include people who make mouthpieces in the original set of people I queried to make the list.
There were a number of different mouthpieces recommended; the B45 and 5RV series topped the list for "expensive" mouthpieces, with the plastic ones receiving rave reviews (price/quality).
I'll have to re-think the recommendations and perhaps re-contact my original list to see if the recommendations still stand.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-10-13 13:46
John -
You're more than welcome to use anything I post. I'm flattered that a well-known pro likes what I say.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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