 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-07-27 17:09
As I make my way through the history of jazz, it strikes me how prominent the clarinet was in early jazz and in the swing period. However, with the rise of be-bop (and later hard bop), the role of the clarinet declined (it was nowhere for example in any of the Art Blakey Jazz Messenger configurations or in the Clifford Brown/Max Roach groups.) Any opinions/comments?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-27 17:24
wjk,
You are talking about two completly different types of music. Just as you will probabaly always find a clarinet in most dixieland bands, the Messengers and the Brown/Roach group were not dixieland. In this case, the saxophone was the tonal color most desired in such ensembles (there can always be an exception).
Very seldom when I play a jazz/dance job do I play clarinet (70% tenor, 10% soprano, 10% clarinet, and 10% flute). For dixieland though, about 85% clarinet and 15% tenor. These mixes are about what I consider the best tonal blends for my part of these entirely different groups. The leader can always say, bring your alto tonight or play a little more clarinet/flute.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-07-27 22:21)
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-07-27 23:08
Yes, but why did the clarinet lose prominence in jazz? Why did the sax become the preferred sound?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-27 23:58
Change of taste I guess. There used to be lots of banjos, accordians, rhythm guitars, and such in bands and one does not see those very much any more.
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-07-28 02:56
Don't forget the woodwinds other than clarinet that had an even shorter stay in jazz: the c-melody sax and the bass sax.
Apparently c-mels generally had very poor intonation, but there were some good models out there (as I've heard from current c-mel players). Also, Tram was an influential c-mel player and for the beginner, there was the benefit of no transposing. So, why did it die out? Probably as Hank said, a change in taste.
The bass sax, in my opinion, has to be the most magnificent sounding member of the sax family (in the right hands, that is), but it too had a short time in the spotlight. Like with the c-mel, the bass sax had its star (Adrian Rollini), but unlike the c-mel, I don't really see parents rushing out to buy their kids a bass sax. The size and cost probably factored into the later neglect of the instrument, as well as its reputation for not being the most agile thing to play (yet Rollini achieved great control using a bari mpc).
Since the clarinet was on the jazz scene since the beginning, I guess it had a bit more staying power than the aforementioned woodwinds, but it seems that with the coming of bop it was finally dubbed "not hep." But, there still are a lot of great traditional jazz clarinetists out there! It is unfortunate that the clarinet is overlooked past the swing era, however.
Sorry if much of that came off as rambling . . . Just trying to get out a few ideas quickly.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-07-28 03:35
The instruments used in jazz through the past 100 years have changed with the times:
The washtub was the forerunner of the tuba, which led eventually to the string bass.
The ukelele and mandolin led to the tenor banjo, which in turn led to the guitar.
Primitive wash boards and wood blocks led eventually to full size drum sets as we know them today.
There are many other examples, including, as we all know, Louis Armstrong's single cornet leading to a full section of trumpet players.
Clarinetists unfortunately have no one to blame except themselves for the relative disappearance of the clarinet as the lead solo voice in jazz. As the center of jazz moved to Chicago in the 1920's, most jazz clarinetists sought to increase their marketability by learning to double on the (relatively new to the scene) saxophone. However, most of these players never returned to clarinet playing and thus the saxophone became their choice (and the public's choice) as the preferred jazz instrument. Combine that fact with the increased size of the ensembles, and the clarinet, which previously played improvisation and solo licks along side of a single trumpet and trombone, could no longer hold its own against the new line-up of eight (or more) brass players.
Take heart, the change to saxophone as the predominant jazz voice is really not such a bad thing. We now have Kenny G ...GBK (running out of the building)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-07-28 03:45
Don't forget the clarinet's technical difficulty. When the beboppers were doing their thing at Minton's, they were doing a lot of things at high speeds and in difficult keys. It would be far more difficult to keep up on clarinet than it would on saxophone. Not a lot of jazz guys running around with A clarinets, and even if they did, it would be a very un-macho thing to pull in a jam session.
It's very hard to beat the saxophone as a jazz instrument. It works well in all keys, has sufficient volume to keep up with brass instruments, and the tenor in particular has a tonal pallette that is hard to beat.
Benny Goodman had a Scandanavian protege in the 1940's who was supposed to be a leading modernist on clarinet. He died in a car crash, and some say that this doomed things. Besides, there was plenty of work for clarinetists in post-war dixieland revival groups.
Allen Cole
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-07-28 04:06
The decline of tbe Clarinet in jazz groups may have begun 'way back when Sidney Bechet began recording with instruments other than the Clarinet, primarily a soprano saxophone. Was this because of the sax's ability to cut an acoustic record with more volume/clarity than a Clarinet? Or maybe was it only an experiment on Sidney's part (he recorded with just about anything from a baritone sax to a sarrusophone). In any event, the record-buying audience didn't insist on his Clarinet, and Bechet almost stopped playing it.
I recall (perhaps wrongly) that when Conn began building C saxophones, they were first called "tenor." Please argue against this if that's mistaken; I wasn't around at the time.
Regards,
John
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-07-28 05:14
" As the center of jazz moved to Chicago in the 1920's, most jazz clarinetists sought to increase their marketability by learning to double on the (relatively new to the scene) saxophone."
I'm not sure that this is entirely correct. In "New Orleans Jazz" Rose & Souchon 3e, there numerous pictures of bands which employed saxes such as: Happy Schilling's Orchestra 1915, Original Tuxedo Orchestra 1924, Louisiana Shakers c.1925, Sam Morgan Band c.1925 [particularly notable actually]. So the sax in jazz was quite well utilised in New Orleans [at least] in the first quarter of last century and not "new to the scene" at all.
" Don't forget the clarinet's technical difficulty. When the beboppers were doing their thing at Minton's, they were doing a lot of things at high speeds and in difficult keys. It would be far more difficult to keep up on clarinet than it would on saxophone."
Seems reasonable to assume I suppose and also because the sax has more cutting power which was probably necessary with someone like Dizzy Gillespie who played loud and at quite a rate of knots.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-07-28 05:40
John... The saxophone being "relatively new to the scene" comment was in reference to music instrument history, with the clarinet having already been in existence for more than 100 years ...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-28 06:22
GBK wrote. "with the clarinet having already been in existence for more than 100 years"
Make that closer to 200!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-28 13:16
Certainly not an expert on the subject question or jazz music in general but my personal opinion is that the sax simply offered more raw sound volume in the middle register. The desire to be heard better is probably one reason why solo clarinet and straight sop.sax players often tilt the horn upwards.
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-07-28 14:45
I always thought it was the following (perhaps wrong as pure surmise):- At the outset of jazz the instruments were generally quieter: narrow bore trombones, narrow bore trumpets, or soft voiced cornets, gut stringed violin, pianos that were not the fully developed steinway, even smaller percussion pieces. As with classical, these instruments were developed to create more power, particulalry in the brass where the bores widened considerably. The clarinet never fully followed suit, so time came that it could not balance, but a saxophone could.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-07-28 16:33
Would somebody please phone Eddie Daniels, Buddy DeFranco, Eric Dolphy, Don Byron, Paquito D'Rivera and Anthony Braxton and tell them we'd prefer they played saxophone rather than that arcane liquorice stick?
I don't think it is fair to say that the role of clarinet declined, and that is true right up to today. In fact, it continued to play the same role it always had, including in hard-driving ensembles like Woody Herman's, Stan Kenton's, and Count Basie's. It wasn't just "old fashioned" music either. It was a critical color for innovative composers like Gil Evans and Thad Jones as well. Some found the new music disagreeable, but Marcus Miller used bass clarinet extensively in Miles Davis' last albums (Siesta and later).
There were plenty of ensemble combinations that didn't include any number of traditional jazz instruments. The guitar and piano are never a sure thing from ensemble to ensemble. Drums aren't always there. Trombone is dicey. There's plenty of clarinet jazz to go around, and probably in a very reasonable proportion compared to other instruments.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-07-28 16:41
msloss wrote:
> Would somebody please phone Eddie Daniels, Buddy DeFranco, Eric
> Dolphy, Don Byron, Paquito D'Rivera and Anthony Braxton
Along with William O. (Bill) Smith (Brubeck made quite a splash with a clarinet in a quartet ...)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2003-07-28 16:46
Interesting topic!
There's any number of reasons why the clarinet took a lesser role (ie, overall use) to the saxophone.
One reason was the evolution of the big bands. In that context, the greater volume and power of a sax section was needed to balance with the brass. As a result, the clarinet became more of a doubling or color instrument. Clarinets were used to great effect by arrangers such as Don Redman, Fletcher Henderson, Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn, Claude Thornhill, Gil Evans, (to name only a few). The post-WWII Claude Thornhill band made extensive use of clarinets. One of the most beautiful sounds in the world is that of the Thornhill band with it's clarinets blending with 2 french horns! But, this is a very different type of sound from the typical roaring dance band of the day. Also, listen carefully to how Duke Ellington used clarinets. This will tell you the whole story.
Another reason is that by the 40's the major innovators on woodwinds were sax players such as Lester Young, Charlie Parker, etc. There is often a trend for other players to follow the innovators. Thus, if Charlie Parker played clarinet instead of alto sax I have no doubt that there would have been many more jazz clarinet players around in the 50's!
Even though the clarinet has taken something of a backseat to the saxophone in modern jazz one can find a good number of absolutely superb jazz clarinet players. It's just a matter of doing some research, making a list of names, and listening to their recordings.
On several other threads I've mentioned John LaPorta. He's an important jazz clarinetist who is sometimes overlooked. His recordings should definitely be checked out. He can be heard as a clarinet soloist in both big band and small group settings. He has a personal clarinet sound, excellent technique, and VERY creative ideas. I'd be hard-pressed to think of a modern jazz clarinet player who has more driving swing than LaPorta.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-07-28 22:49
" Would somebody please phone Eddie Daniels, Buddy DeFranco, Eric Dolphy, Don Byron, Paquito D'Rivera and Anthony Braxton and tell them we'd prefer they played saxophone rather than that arcane liquorice stick?"
Eric Dolphy is no longer listed in the phone book.
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2003-07-29 16:47
Was discussing this very topic recently over a beer after orchestra rehearsal with other woodwind players and our conductor. Our not very scientific consensus: because the sax is so easy to play compared to the clarinet.
I brought the topic up because I always run into older men who tell me that they used to play clarinet and I meet few younger men who do. Benny Goodman must have been the Jimi Hendrix of his day who inspired every young boy to run out and buy a clarinet.
I doubt that volume really accounted for the demise of the jazz clarinet. Benny Goodman played in far bigger bands than the bebop groups. Due to economics and changing cultural trends (no ballrooms). most jazz groups today are quite small. Yet you don't see clarinets much even when the other instrumentation would clearly allow a clarinet to be heard. In non-jazz contexts, the amplification of the other instruments is problematic (even for saxes) but the clarinet was already passe by the time the electric guitar came into its own. If I recall right, the Fender Telecaster and Stratocaster were on the market no earlier than 1954.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-07-29 17:03
Eileen wrote:
> If I
> recall right, the Fender Telecaster and Stratocaster were on
> the market no earlier than 1954.
Broadcaster (renamed to the Telecaster because of a similarity between that name and gretch drums) - 1951, but they are not nearly the 1st electric guitars. Gibson produced the ES-150 in quantity in 1937! Eddie Durham recorded the 1st electric guitar solo in 1938 with the Kansas City Six. Durham also cajoled 1st rate banjoist Floyd Smith into playing an ES-150 on "Floyd's Guitar Blues" in March 1939.
Charlie Christian was the 1st real "electric jazz guitar" man, and he died in 1942! (and played in Goodman's band as a soloist, no less)
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Author: katchow
Date: 2003-07-29 17:20
did you guys ever listen to jimmy guiffre? not really a clarinetist in any tradiotional sense, he developed his low dark sound because he intially had trouble playing the higher registers...i've got a few of his albums before and after his brand of 'free' jazz...i dunno, i always liked it. Mostly for a change of pace and technique...i gather that some would disagree with the validity of his style...
i also have have a video with him playing in a combo with Pee Wee Russell. What a strange combo that was I could be wrong, but at times it looks as if pee wee is rolling his eyes at Jimmy's simpler technique...
that was a bit from the infamous show that included Thelonius playing w/ Count Basie sittin at the end of his piano (it apparently was making him nervous to have Basie watching)...good stuff
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-07-29 17:58
John,
Depends on what phone book you are dialing from ;-)
(I wonder what rates are to the celestial Village Vanguard...)
M.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2003-07-30 03:52
There is, in fact, an "E. Dolphy" listed in the 2003 Brooklyn phone book (though a different address than Eric's last known listing on South Oxford Street).
Who knows, Bird Lives too.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-07-30 04:33
" Depends on what phone book you are dialing from ;-)
(I wonder what rates are to the celestial Village Vanguard...)"
May be try the "Royal Telephone"
" Who knows, Bird Lives too."
Yeh....good one!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-30 13:34
Eileen : "Benny Goodman must have been the Jimi Hendrix of his day who inspired every young boy to run out and buy a clarinet. "
Having been a boy at the time I can tell you that most of us didn't have enough money to buy a clarinet. But I do like the picture of Benny as the Jimi Hendrix of his day squirting cigarette lighter fluid on his clarinet and smoking groovie grass.....! I can never remember if Swing is considered Jazz.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2003-07-31 01:57
Don't know if you've noticed.....I'm hearing a lot of clarinet in radio and tv commercials....at least a half dozen currently on air here in Phoenix.
Some locally produced...some national.
John
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The Clarinet Pages
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