 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-06-06 11:05
I can't do it.
That is to say, I'm unable to pronounce an uvular "R" (a rolled R, as in Celtic dialects and European languages). I assume this is how you flutter-tongue. The closest I can come is a guttural growl from the back of my throat. This is no good when playing the clarinet.
This puts some interesting stuff out of reach, like the Berg, among others. Anyone else suffer from this anatomical omission? Or how about a few words from those people who, like some of my own students, can't resist warming up casually with a bit of fluttering, and some helpful hints? ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Cheers.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-06 11:39
Dear William: Don't be too upset right now, I also think the growl at the back of the throat means you are on to the right side of this technique.
Try rolling the tongue in in a circle before anything and /or bring the tip of the tongue in direct contact with the roof of the mouth...then blow and you should get something like a growl.
A few years back I did some Mahler and the clarinetist beside me couldn't flutter tongue but I could. By the time the concerts came around he discovered a workable solution by using the method I outlined above.
You are not going to get the most beautiful sound this way, but it certainly may be an approach to learning this musical effect..
David Dow
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-06-06 12:08
I recently discovered, after doing Mahler 2, that I CAN flutter tongue. I've never attempted it before until now, and lucky, because I have an ensemble piece that requires it.
I simply hold the clarinet outwards, having the mpc pointing inwards, and a lot less of it in the mouth. This leaves room for the tongue to do it's duty.
If you can't roll your R's, maybe you could see a speech therapist?
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Author: cassie
Date: 2003-06-06 13:44
I can't do it either, William!!! You're not alone! I sound just dreadful when I attempt to flutter tongue. I can't even do the growl thing! Maybe my tongue is too fat?? Haha, that'd be funny.
But I'm extremely interested to learn how! I can't glissando (bend) successfully, either.............................what kind of a clarinet player, am I?!?!?!?!?!?
cassie
Post Edited (2003-06-06 13:46)
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2003-06-06 14:16
I remember from Phonetics class that the ability to produce a trilled R (a.k.a. rolled R) is considered to be genetic, although I don’t think a specific genetic marker has yet been found. As with any language sound, most folks can learn to produce it if they are exposed early enough in development, but a minority of folks simply can't trill an R. I have six godchildren who were raised in native Spanish speaking households and one cannot produce the Spanish trilled R.
Any language that is widely spoken will comprise sounds that a vast majority of people can produce but can be easily faked by the remainder; otherwise the language wouldn't be effective and would die out. An example of an English sound that is difficult to produce is “th”. It is often faked as an “f” by English speakers, as in Cockney and contemporary inner-city American dialects.
A more differentiated example of a lingual skill that is inherited (thus un-learnable) and is exhibited by roughly half the human population is the ability to fold the tongue, producing a valley down it length. Get a mirror and try it yourself to see which half you belong to. No amount of training will enable you to do this if you can’t already.
Even if you are genetically equipped to produce a certain lingual movement, unless you learn it as a child you may not be able to produce it well (or at all) as an adult. The mouth muscles of most folks “set” during adolescence. This explains why the majority of people who learn a language as adults have a discernable accent, no matter how fluent they are or how much they work with a coach. One theory is that the mouth muscles set as an evolutionary adaptation that enables the sounds of the parent’s language to be transferred unambiguously to off-spring. This isn’t so far-fetched since language and its extension to abstract thought (e.g., science, music) differentiate man from the beasts.
The net of this is that David Dow’s advice is excellent. If you can’t flutter tongue, don't fret. Just learn learn to fake it. Your clarinet sound may have a slight “accent” but you will be understood just as well as my one godchild.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-06-06 16:47
I can do every clarinet trick there is except flutter tongue. I can growl and sometimes that will work. I dread the day when Don Quixote is put in front of me!!
Surprisingly there are some very notable clarinetists who can't flutter. Larry Combs once told me that Clark Brody could not, but instead he just tongued fast as he could. It apparently worked. John Bruce Yeh also doesn't flutter. I know, you're thinking "but I have heard him do it!!", but what he actually does is blow in such a way as to vibrate his uvula ( I call it the puke trigger). I can wiggle mine just fine WITHOUT my clarinet; lots of good that does me!
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Author: rbell96
Date: 2003-06-06 18:04
I didn't realise this. Is there flutter tounging in Mahler and Strauss?
Sorry for being dumb!
Rob
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-06-06 18:11
Don Quixote--supposed to imitate sheep! Don't remember in Mahler 2. Rite of Spring has it as well as others.
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-06-06 20:32
Interestingly, but admittedly totally unscientific or poll-based the best American and European players I've worked/partied with were proficient flutter, flic, double, triple, gurgle, grow and doodle tonguers AND anchor tonguers. That includes those who anchor tongue only and/or both tip and anchor. Puzzling but I believe there's a valid connection here. If so, it makes "chop sense" as there are clear distinctions in method and application between tip and anchor. Muscle development and training in both tongue and throat (for good or ill) singularly builds/strengthen oral cavity muscles that alters air stream. v/r Ken
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-06-06 21:05
Ken - I thought doodle tonguing was a "brass-only" technique . . . (If we are referring to the same thing!) First time I heard about it was reading something about Jack Teagarden, and they noted that he used "doodle tonguing," which was saying the word "doodle" to play swung eighths . . . I'm not sure how this would work w/ a mpc and reed in your mouth . . .
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-06-07 08:12
Yep, Mahler 2 has flutter tongueing, but only one sustained note. High D# on Eb clarinet.
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-06-07 15:21
Benni wrote: "I thought doodle tonguing was a "brass-only" technique"
--In the vernacular doodle tonguing is a brass-only phenomena/technique but it can also be convincingly duplicated on a clarinet (or any woodwind) with a little experimentation and fortitude ... worth learning too, makes a big difference matching style and length when playing unison lines with a trumpet. Don't ask, I can't even begin to explain here how I do mine. v/r Ken
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-06-07 16:26
Ken - Now I have something to play around with when I want to work on articulation 
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2003-06-09 20:06
All the techniques described above work easier with a double-lip embouchure. Once you can do it double-lipped than try it single -lip. It is much harder on Eb clarinet. Learn to do it first on Bb.
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