 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-04-30 19:52
Idiotic question from someone who is an orchestral neophyte and trying hard not to betray ignorance to fellow players. At the beginning of a bar, does one start a note at the top, the middle or the bottom of the downbeat?
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2003-04-30 20:15
Depends on what the conductor wants. I have worked with some that want you to play right with the stick, while others conduct about half a beat ahead of the sound. I hope that makes sense.
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Author: MGarrison
Date: 2003-04-30 20:23
Interesting question. I assuming and was playing as if it was at the top and the downward swipe of the baton was equivalent to the 'tick' on my metronome.
Post Edited (2003-04-30 21:23)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-04-30 20:24
It varies with the conductor and the organization.
Student conductors are taught to put a "click" in the beat -- that is, a snap or flick of the wrist -- when the baton gets near the bottom of the downbeat. Jay Julian at the University of Tennessee used to say that the beat occurred when the tip of his baton reached the fourth button on his shirt front, but I'm not sure even he took that seriously.
The click works fine in marches and allegros, but not in slow or legato passages. It's just something you learn to follow, listening hard to the other players and decoding what the conductor is trying to get.
Some conductors have an easy to follow beat. George Szell was amazingly precise, and the Cleveland Orchestra hung on his smallest nuances. On the other hand, Wilhelm Furtwangler's beat was impossible to find, and he was more concerned with a singing line than with precision.
Many orchestras play well behind the conductor's beat. The Vienna Philharmonic is famous for it -- the New York Philharmonic infamous.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2003-04-30 21:24
Ken,
...and all these years watching the NY Phil., whether I was in the front row at a rehearsal or the back in the "cheap"seats, I thought it was my eyes and ears sending conflicting messages to my brain. 
To Beejay:
more than likely the start is at the bottom of the beat. Listen to what the other players are doing and it should be instantly clear where they are playing or placing the beat.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-04-30 21:44
My community orchestra had three part-timers conducting our last outing.
Each had a different style, all were experienced as player and director.
They had two things in common...
They sang while conducting.
They accentuated the 'downmost' part of the initial beat.
We play alot of break-neck fast marches, so I could really only make out a blur in the faster passages.
We performed a transcription of Beethoven's Egmont overture, and the indications were much more clear... the first beat was at the lowest point of the swing.
I think it would be an appropriate (and appreciated) question of your conductor... they always seem a little surprised that someone actually watches them!
Le jeu dans la bande peut être un défi, mais lui travailler sûr de battements!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-01 01:33
As to the orchestras that played behind the beat, is it a fair assumption that this helps them to stay in time with the conductor? I assume that if you're playing just behind the beat, and the conductor decides to take a little liberty and slow down to half tempo, you have more of a warning than if you were trying to stay EXACTLY with his downstroke.
Is this why? Or is it just a style thing?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-01 01:48
When I conduct I always "train" my orchestra to watch my ithica (is that the spelling or word??) - and it's at the TOP of my beat.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-01 02:29
Hi Diz,
I remember the ictus (this may be a closer spelling but it has been sooooo long) from my conducting class. Yes, the beat before the downbeat or if the music does not start there, the beat before the beginning beat.
HRL
The last senstence is not some of my best descriptive work!
HRL
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2003-05-01 04:26
Speaking of singing while conducting, had anyone listened to Brahms' first symphony played by Leonard Bernstein and the Weiner Philharmoniker? In two spots (the one I can specifically remember was around the middle of the second movement), I can hear a voice, probably Bernstein's, rather audibly humming with the music.
My conductor for this semester at Miami University Oxford (my absolute first experience in any orchestral setting), Gary Speck, put the beats on the lowest position of the baton.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-01 04:55
Joel - precisely why I don't like Glen Gould recordings.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-05-01 13:26
Conducting technique does not have the same orthodoxies that instrumental technique must have.
The reason it is sometimes unlclear where the downbeat (or any beat) actually is at any given time with certain conductors is because they are poor conductors or poor musicians.
The reason certain conductors who LOOK unclear get terrific performances is because they are excellent musicians who know the music cold.
Conversely, you will very often see a conductor who looks clear but whom no one can follow. That is because they learned the moves but didn't solidify their basic performance musicianship (particularly rhythm). I see it all the time.
As far as figuring it out, time and experience are the answer.
Orchestral clarinet playing isn't easy (not that anyone said it was). Why? First of all, clarinet playing itself isn't easy. Add to that the fact that all the response problems of the clarinet must now be conquered on someone else's timetable. . .and now we know that that person is sometimes incompetent. . .you see where it gets tricky.
I once had a mediocre musician say to me that he thought Leonard Bernstein was unclear as a conductor. I was shocked, I think LB was about as great a conducting technician as it is possible to be. . .PLUS he was about as great a musician as a person can be.
Basically, if the best musician in the orchestra you are playing in cannot follow what the conductor is doing (assuming it's not a junior high or high school orchestra) there's probabably a problem on the podium.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-01 13:55
Synonymous -
For "Le jeu dans la bande peut être un défi, mais lui travailler sûr de battements,"
Babelfish gives "The play in the band can be a challenge, but work to him sure of beats."
Maybe "It's not easy to play in the band, but it beats work." ??
Speaking of singing conductors, in Toscanini's RCA recording of the Verdi Requiem, at the gigantic fanfare in the Tuba Mirum, you can hear him roaring along with the trumpets at the top of his voice. It only adds to the drama.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: hardreed
Date: 2003-05-01 14:06
I think what is more important than the downbeat is the upbeat, or the preparation with which the conductor gives for the downbeat. The upbeat can show the quality of sound and attack/release that the conductor is seeking. It can also establish a clear baseline for the ictus where that is required. A well prepared beat can also facilitate entries which occur "off the beat". Too many conductors I have played with seem to be content on beating geometrically correct patterns with the stick without giving concern to how they can help the players to unfold and shape the music. Cheers,
Hardreed
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-05-01 14:54
Hardreed has put his finger on the essence of conducting technique.
The preperatory beat (which is often an upbeat, but a preperatory can come before or after any beat) is where it all happens. Well saidt
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-05-02 09:11
Thank you for those learned replies. I'm going to share with others in my section since our slightly ragged starts are caused by a misunderstanding of the downbeat, including on my part. On a similar topic, could anyone tell me where to put the accent on a 12/8 -- once at the beginning, or at the beginning of each of the four su-groups of three. And if the latter, why isn't the music written 3/8?
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-05-02 14:14
On the subject of whether to play on or behind the conductors beat (be it down, up, or in the middle), my orchestra recently took part in a piece for two orchestras, the other being the BBC Concert Orchestra. We were being conducted by the BBCCO regular conductor and it became clear in the rehearsal that BBCCO played further behind than we were used to. no sweat. We just adjusted and everything went fine.
However i am sure we are all familiar with the fact that any orchestra will play either promptly to the beat or behind it depending on the nature of the passage and what we sense the conductor wants. If the conductor cannot convey that in some mysterious way, then it all comes to grief. A good conductor is one who can. It is very common to have a loud chord in a slow movement after a pregnant pause. Who plays those bang on the bottom of the down beat?? Unlikely. There is usualy quite a gap, but an orchestra that knows its conductor and knows itself will get that gap absolutely right.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-05-02 14:55
What an interesting discussion, helpful to all players AND conductors! Having played under some "would-be's" the several preparatory "motions-counts" are greatly informative and to be desired. I still clearly recall the Mich State Band's rehearsal [in 1938?] where Leonard Falcone "cured" us of excessive beat-lag, and taught us how to attack!! He sure made the hall ring with his baritone horn, WOW. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-03 00:46
Quote:
Thank you for those learned replies. I'm going to share with others in my section since our slightly ragged starts are caused by a misunderstanding of the downbeat, including on my part. On a similar topic, could anyone tell me where to put the accent on a 12/8 -- once at the beginning, or at the beginning of each of the four su-groups of three. And if the latter, why isn't the music written 3/8?
3/8 would have three beats per measure, where as 12/8 has 12 beats (or four sets of triplets) per measure. I assume this is a typo. The reason the music is written in 12/8 I couldn't tell you. Perhaps it would've been very annoying to read all those triplets as triplets and it's less confusing to write as 12/8.
As to where to put the accent, it really depends on the music and hwo you want to phrase it so that can be unclear to answer through a BBoard as well. Sorry.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-03 01:03
If I saw 12/8 and the tempo was brisk, the conducted beat would be 4 per measure. With a very slow tempo, I would still beat in 4 but would probably sub-divide each beat into 3 parts. To beat 12 separate beats in the typical right/left of left/right pattern would probably lose everyone including the conductor.
However, the last beat or part of a beat would have a very pronounced ictus.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-05-03 21:01)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-03 06:35
"On a similar topic, could anyone tell me where to put the accent on a 12/8 -- once at the beginning, or at the beginning of each of the four su-groups of three. And if the latter, why isn't the music written 3/8?"
There are 4 beats in 12/8 time. As a rule, the first of these beats will have more stress than the others. That's why it's not written in 3/8 time.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2003-05-03 17:56
Ken:
Did you play in the UT band under Julian? I am about to graduate from there in about a week.
Brandon
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-05 13:48
Brandon -
I went to UT (my native state university) in 1968-69, after I got out of the West Point Band. I jumped from contrabass to Eb. I had played an infinite number of parades in the Army, so I skipped the first quarter, which was marching band.
I assume Jay Julian is retired. He was at UT practically forever. By the time I got there, he did it on autopilot, but he was a decent musician. The band was OK, though not at the West Point level (where we had people like Larry Combs). It took them about half the year to move from marching band blasting to concert band style. I hope it's better now.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2003-05-05 15:00
Wave the stick until the music stops, then turn around and bow--Jerry Lewis School of Conducting 101
My old college band director used to refer to guest conducting appearances as "guess" conducting because neither the ensemble nor the conductor were really familiar with each other. The guest conductor hoping that the ensemble can play all that he/she is trying to conduct, and the ensemble members constantly guessing at what the conducting guestures really mean. For anyone who can remember seeing Jerry doing his very comical conducting routine, imagine what a challenge it would be for a musician to follow his "instantaneous" gestures.
Every conductor uses different baton technique and the best collabrative music efforts result when the ensemble and the conductor have learned to appreciate and utilize each other's musical efforts. All conductors use different technique that must be learned by the ensemble, and every ensemble has varying levels of competence within each section that the competent conductor must learn to artisically regulate for musical effect. "Where the beat is" is really where the individual conductor defines it to be and it is up to the musician (and ensemble) to learn to recognize that "artistic" point--EVERY TIME IT IS INDICATED. So, to say where the sound should always begin is not possible because "where the beat is" changes with each conductors individual technique. The musician simply needs to learn to follow.
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