 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: krawfish3x
Date: 2003-04-27 16:19
I use this embouchure and i think its really great, but sometimes i cant play or practice long ammounts at a time. i looked at my top lip and saw that i acctually have teeth marks from using the embouchure in my lips. does anyone know if this will heal or not?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-04-27 16:30
That's the problem. If you hurt too much, you may be biting down on the mouthpiece too hard which. You should really (theoretically) not have pain in your upper lip because you shouldn't have to bite to aquire sound. Of course with a harder reed, this is less avoidable.
Also, if you just started, it may just take a while to get used to it. Remember the beginning of clarinet? The sore lip you had after playing? you'll eventually develop a callous and the pain will subside. Just make sure not to bite too much.
If it continues, and you don't think it's biting "too hard", get soemthing to cover your teeth and protect your gum. I've heard of many things being used. I personally would go to a dentist and have then custom fit a thin protective cover for my teeth. THinner the better since it'll feel more natural. I've heard of people using other things like pieces of paper or thin plastic cut into strips, rubber from a rubber glove, etc.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2003-04-27 16:34
Heal or Not?
If it just small callus built up from regularly playing this way, then there is nothing to heal. If these marks are from recent overuse, then taking a day off should do wonders (often this will go away overnight).
Also, if you can, take frequent breaks while you are practicing double lip.
I play double lip and can feel, and see if I choose to look, a small ridge on the inside of my lips, top and bottom, from playing. This is a "callus" built up over time from playing - this also occurs in single lip playing - it is a good thing and usually not a problem. There are times when I have a very long rehearsal, practice or performing day and then these areas can become a little more sensitive and "raw" feeling from extra use. This slight annoyance usually goes away over night.
Tom Piercy
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Author: krawfish3x
Date: 2003-04-27 16:36
ive been using the double lip embouchure ever since ive had my clarinet(which is about 5 maybe 6 years) but i think what caused this was that i increased my reed strength and i started playing A LOT. ill probably get used to it within a month or two.
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2003-04-27 16:40
Krawfish -
Taking frequent short breaks while practicing will greatly aid you in getting used to a harder reed if a harder reed is what you need to be using.
Don't play on tired or aching lips if at all possible. Playing on rested, healthy and strong lips will make your lips stronger and stay healthy.
Tom Piercy
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-04-27 17:37
Allen Cole's web site at http://allencole.tripod.com/buyguide.htm has some suggestions for sore mouth remedies which can be bought at a drug store.
If you find anything that works well, please post your results.
Hans
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Author: Eugene Pook
Date: 2003-04-27 18:53
Mr. Stolzman suggests using white Floral tapes which you can buy it from Floral shops. It sticks on your teeth when you wet it. I form 3 layers. It's very thin enough to give you the natural feel. I play both double and single lip and I use it onboth upper and lower teeth.
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Author: Benny
Date: 2003-04-27 22:29
Buy some cigarette paper and fold it into a little square. I fold mine in thirds the long way, and then in half and in half again (the short way). Then put some saliva on it and it will mold over your teeth. It really helps for those all-day rehearsals...
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Author: PJ
Date: 2003-04-27 23:07
I had the same problem occur a couple of years ago after chipping a tooth on the bottom (long story). The solution to my problem was custom formed bleaching trays from my dentist. I had recently been to the dentist for the procedure and found that these trays that formed to my teeth worked wonders while I played, double or single.
Now, whether or not you're wanting to spend a couple hundred bucks or not I don't know. However, if this is something that looks like it could be a long term issue, I would certainly check with your dentist to see what he can offer. It could be something as simple as filing down a rough edge of a tooth to solve the problem.
I like Tom's suggestion as for short periods of rest during practice sessions. This has always help the embouchure stay 'in tact' longer by keeping the muscles strong.
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Author: Karel
Date: 2003-04-28 02:14
A physiotherapist may be willing to sell you the heat-moldable plastic they use for making splints. It can be rolled thin while hot, cut into small pieces, reheated and molded to your front teeth. As it cools (have a drink of cold water) the shape becomes permanent and slides on and off with ease. Cost of material should be minimal, and can be rolled out as thin as you wish. I made several for myself when I started using double lip, but only had to use them for a few months but they made the transition much less traumatic.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-04-28 17:23
I gave up on double lip under the guidance of Harold Wright. He felt it required too much pain for it to work for some one like me who likes to play alot. generally, I spent alot of time with sore lips and fatigue problems. Not to metion the hands have to be incredibly delicate for double lip embouchure to work. I would say I will never go back to double lip.
David Dow
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2003-04-28 17:44
I would like to say that double lip embouchure and pain and not being able to play too much are not necessarily true for everyone.
Playing double lip does not mean you will have pain and can't spend a lot of time playing -- it will vary with everyone.
Richard Stoltzman uses double lip and he is one very busy solo and chamber performer.
There are orchestral players that use double lip and maintain very busy schedules.
I myself practice/play many hours a day (mostly solo, chamber) and rarely have sore lips. Yes, it does take delicate hand and finger motion, but that is a good thing. I do find that if I am trying out many new reeds (I make my own) then I may bite too much to try to get a sound out and figure out the new reeds' details.
I am not disagreeing with D Dow's decision to stop using double lip (that is rightfully so a personal decision), and I am not trying to say everyone should use it, I just think that DL is not always painful or takes away from playing time as is often stated.
I am totally against playing with or through pain. The right set-up (especially reeds & mouthpiece) with the correct approach to practice and playing and DL should be able to give you all the playing time you need without pain.
Tom Piercy
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-04-29 01:49
I would like to thank Tom for his response. I 100% concur, in fact I have a student who plays double lip with no problem whatsoever. As for set up I know some players who switch back and forth from double and single lip depending on how tired they are....
Another thing which I note: double lip can certainly lower pitch with some students. This could be due to the effect it has on the air column and throat cavity. I have seen some very sharp students suddenly player much lower and better in tune once switching to double lip embouchure.
I basically stopped playing double lip due to the problems I was having with facial muscle pain (which went away very quickly. ) once I changed to single....
I also know that players like Lancelot and Dangain have used double-lip and been quite busy. as for myself, with orchestra concerts, recitals, band concerts and other groups, I found DL to be too much to maintain and gave it up readily....
Best wishes
David Dow
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-04-29 03:14
I can play double lip comfortably for quite some time. The only time I really use it though is when I seem to have developed a case of the squeaks. I use it for a while to ensure that I'm not biting and pinching the reed off too much. After playing for about ten-fifteen minutes of double lip, I switch back to single lip and try to maintain the same lower pressure as before, ensuring that the teeth are there ONLY to support the mouthpiece from falling out and not to push down on my lower lip.
I find double lip a good thing to do every now and then to ensure and correct when my embouchre gets "lazy" from too much practice. It also helps to solve when I start to leak air as I'm blowing (which happens once again when my embouchre loosens up from being lazy).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2003-04-29 12:42
sf -
that's a great way to utillize Double Lip if you do not want to change over completely.
I ask my students to do the same: even if only for three to five minutes, use it sometimes for some of the very reasons you mentioned above. It's great to be able to do both.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Matt Snyder
Date: 2003-04-29 23:17
Jazz clarinetist Perry Robinson plays with double lip and has a sound utterly unlike any other clarinet player you've ever heard. He attributes it to the exquisite tonal control the double lip affords you. He uses very light reeds and he can adjust his intonation by microdegrees, which is a very powerful expressive tool.
When I was at Indiana U, Howard Klug suggested that I use chamois (cowskin, the stuff they use to wash cars) on my lower lip. I play single lip, but I have very sharp lower teeth and I use an open mouthpiece with hard reeds, so it's an issue. The chamois is cheap (one cloth lasted me ten years), and I didn't have to go to the dentist to get fitted and pay a fortune.
Matt Snyder
msnyder@alumni.indiana.edu
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-04-29 23:29
A dentist here in NYC/NJ, has created an "appliance" that fits over the teeth and is super thin, so it can barely be felt while playing. We worked on the size, material, and quality for about 6 months, before finding just the right material (a kind if high quality plastic), that is transparent and flexible, and seems to last forever.
He talks an impression of your teeth the normal way, then with some new dental techniques, produces the "appliance" that fits perfectly over the teeth that injure the lip. The whole deal costs about $60, lasts a lifetime, you get 3-4 "appliances," and you're set to play 8+ hours a day!
His name is:
Dr. Harris Levine
2500 Lemoine Ave.
Ft. Lee, NJ 07024
201-592-1066
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Karel
Date: 2003-04-30 03:55
John J., it is very easy to shape these "appliances" directly on the teeth, without the black magic of an impression. Off cuts of the material I described in a post above will cost next to nothing (mine cost nothing and I have about 50 years' worth) and it takes a few minutes to make. And they seem pretty indestructable.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-04-30 13:19
Thanks Karel, but the "heat-moldable plastic" doesn't fit as well, or is as thin and feel as good as my Dentist's "appliance."
I wasn't looking to save money, as $60 is not a large outlay, and the professionally made one is working much better for me and my students.
If your "heat-moldable plastic " one works for your purposes, that's good.
I'm still suggesting that all interested in a well made professional "appliance," go to their DDS and have one fitted there.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Karel
Date: 2003-04-30 13:45
Hate to disagree with you John. I doubt that your DD has made it any thinner than I have, plus the advantage that I have made them for free for my friends as well. They fit perfectly.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-04-30 14:50
Go for it, Karel.
Your friends have a great deal with you homemade free "appliance."
I'll have my students get in touch with you for more help.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-04-30 15:32
Having been taught to play double lip back in the dark ages when the prevailing attitude(among my circle of players and teachers) seemed to be that only a beast would put his teeth directly on the mouthpiece I find it interesting that some readers feel it is not the "normal" procedure.
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Author: Karel
Date: 2003-05-01 01:53
When I first picked up a clarinet as an "old man" of 63 I naturally used double lip. Imagine my surprise at my first lesson at the instruction to anchor the mpc on the top teeth. For the life of me I could not see why, and 2 years later I reverted to double lip.
JJM, your students are welcome to contact me. However, you may find it simpler to obtain some of the raw material, in the thinnest form you can find. Cut into small rectangles, heat in very hot water and roll out to wafer thickness with a small glass jar as a rolling pin. Cut off the size and shape you want, reheat and apply firmly to the teeth, maintaining finger pressure for a minute or so for it to firm up, then slosh some cold water around in the mouth to set, then pull off. You can trim the edges to a final shape with fine scissors.
I happened to have access to the plastic before I retired, which is how I came to use it. It is absolutely straightforward and although you may spoil and discard your first one or two attempts, it is like "falling off a log". That's why I feel so strongly about people paying $60 (AUD 100) for something that is so simple to make.
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Author: Sandra F.
Date: 2003-05-01 01:59
I utilize both double and single lip embouchures. I find that my endurance is greater with practice using the double lip. I also have greater control of my sound. I will often switch between the two embouchures during long sessions of playing. Sandra
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-01 02:32
After a little practicing both ways, I decided to switch over to double lip embouchre (within the last few days). I personally seem to have better control with this. Looks like I'll be following the above advice to make sure I don't kill my upper lip while doing this (sorta like that trumpet player who was fantastic, but due to improper technique and training ended up with his lower lip exploding and not being able to play for QUITE a while - can't remember his name).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-05-01 03:40
Hi Karel, not to belabor a point, but I been down the road with the store bought plastic stuff, and it doesn't work for me.
Too much fuss to get the right shape.
Too much cutting and fitting.
Too thick, even with the thinnest type.
When you drink hot liquids during a session break, and forget to remove it, the shape changes, making it useless.
Sorry, my friend, I'll stick with my $60 for life variety.
Good luck with your own choice.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Karel
Date: 2003-05-01 03:56
Hi John, my stuff came from a physiotherapist. It rolls out to any thickness you like. It softens if you have very hot drink, I take mine out. I would rather spend the money on a MPC or ligature and I will now stop labouring the point.
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