 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SusanB
Date: 2003-03-10 01:47
I have a problem and I hope all of you can give me some advice! I did a search on this topic and did not find anything that turned on the light for me, so I am going to go ahead and ask for your help.
I seem to be permanently assigned to 2nd clarinet parts. I would like to play some first now and then. I have a friend who is now a clarinet teacher. We play together in various groups, and she says the only problem she sees with my playing is that I have a "small" sound. This is true. I am never as loud as everyone else in my section. I am also chronically sharp!
Here is my current setup: I have a 14 yr. old Buffet R-13, which I purchased new. I have a 67mm DEG accubore tuning barrel and I use a Vandoren M-13 lyre mouthpiece. I play Vandoren 3 1/2 reeds and Vandoren V-12 3 reeds. I also have a Charles Bay mouthpiece, but I play sharper with it than the M-13. I also have my old 2RV, but I am off the chart sharp with it, and I don't use it anymore. So you know the environments I play in, I play in concert band at the local college, in a clarinet quartet, and in our city band, which plays outdoors in the summer. In the band, we are usually 2 to a part, in the summer band we are 3 to a part.
I wonder if my embouchure is too tight...maybe I bite down too hard and I am squashing my sound. Or maybe I need a different mpc/reed combination.
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-10 02:17
I too suffer from "small sound".
I am trying to get a larger sound, by opening up my throat and doing extensive long tones etc. to build up my lung capacity. I also play on a Leblanc- and they are not known for having as good projection as Selmers of Buffets- so to get the sound I like I will have to work harder so I dont sound "small".
Since you dont really have a problem with your clarinet not projecting as much as possible- just try to open your throat. Also listen to what the others suggest since they might be able to help you more.....
Thats all I can help you with ......
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-03-10 17:30
Many of those in the goups I play in also have small sounds. It is my guess that one of the reasons is that they take too little of the mouthpiece in their mouths. That means that less of the reed is vibrating. Experiment with a tiny bit more. You will probably feel you have less control, but stick with it for a while. If that helps, take in a little more.
Your mouthpiece has a fairly close tip. Conventional wisdom says you can't play as loudly as you would with a larger tip opening. Perhaps you could try another mouthpiece - I bet you could easily borrow a B45 and get it to work with some adjusting on one of your softest reeds. You will be louder but you will probably dislike the less focussed nature of your sound. You will also be way sharp with the B45, but this is just an experiment.
Some players are reluctant to play loudly because of bad intonation changes that happen when they do. I guess that just requires some embouchure strength and flexibility to counter the changes. Or a clarinet with a better acoustic design.
Others just never push their clarinets very much. Their dynamic range is very narrow. I don' know why. Do you ever play so hard you get red? Maybe your idea of "loud" is not very loud and you just need to change your idea and exert yourself. I thought I was pretty loud until I heard a couple of professional level clarinetists and realized I was only wimpy.
I was chronically sharp also with the HS*, the HS**, the 5RV, the B45 and the Portnoy BP03. When I tried the Gigliotti P and the M13 13 and the Combs LC3, my pitch was lowered. I think your R13 will be more in tune with a Chedeville-style mouthpiece.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-03-10 18:56
Bradley,
I have always played Leblancs, and I have never had a "small sound." In fact, I have always been accused of being too loud (and, therefore, annoying, especially during practice sessions at home.) I use some of the wider open mouthpieces and it works out for me.
SusanB,
Have you compared your instrument and set-up with others with whom you play, who don't play sharp and have a bigger sound? It might be an interesting experiment for you to let someone else in your bands/orchestras who does not play sharp or have that small sound try out your rig and see if they, too, play sharp and small with it, and vice-versa. It could come down to a matter of proper tuning and adjustment of your set-up, rather than changing out "parts."
If some such person can play your rig "properly" and/or find the correct adjustment of your rig to play "properly," then you try it and still play sharp and small, then it may turn out to be something you need to work on yourself. Of course, that someone else can do it with that particular set-up, still doesn't mean you will be able to do it with the same set-up, as they say, to each his (her) own, but you might try that first.
I know that items such as mouthpieces and barrels do make a difference, but I always like to start out troubleshooting by closely examining my existing set-up and the reasons I got it in the first place, with help from my more experienced friends and teachers, of course, and the availability of other instruments/set-ups that are not "suffering" from the same malady as mine.
I've seen that work out a few times.
Peter
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2003-03-11 06:43
how about if i put it this way.......
you have a very good set up, an expensive one......
and i definitely wouldn't say that there is a problem with it....
try a softer reed.
try loosening up your embouchure for a few days (just like what they do when they play jazz) then get back to your original embouchure. you'll feel the difference......do this frequently, this is an exercise to remind you that you are getting to tight on your embouchure......of course you won't have to do it forever, just until you feel the results....
how about air support?
are you sure that you are opening your throat?
and one more thing....did you know that playing in the 2nd clarinet section is the best thing to do in an ensemble? hahaha....thats my point of view though.....your parts aren't gonna be too altissimo.....which makes it easier,
and more appropriate to your level, plus 2nd parts are often very versatile,
giving you more space to improve by practising the more finer things of the pieces....good luck!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-03-11 13:43
If you can afford to purchase a new mouthpiece, I'd suggest sending Greg Smith an email asking what might be good for you and having him send some out for you to try. I agree your tip is too closed on the mouthpiece you're using. That would be fine for someone who needs a lot of resistance. You might also change up your reed/ligature set up. It might be helpful to go down one strength in your reed--from a 3 1/2 to a 3, for instance, or all the way to a 2 1/2 on the Vandoren V12s. I'd get a good Rovner or BG Super Revelation ligature. And, I'd try a Chadash barrel instead of the Deg for your R-13. Greg can also send you out some of those with the mouthpiece.
But--the hard part comes with the work to bring about a "big" sound. That takes practice. Once you have improved your physical set up with your mouthpiece and barrel, it is up to you to do the work to make a bigger sound. Listen to some players with big sounds and get that in your head and begin to try to do that in your practice time. Picture yourself pushing the sound all the way through the instrument.
With a little practice and a few changes in your equipment, you'll be sounding better soon and will surprise your director.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-03-11 23:52
There may be a body size issue which may contribute to a small sound. I am 94 kilograms or 14 1/2 stone or for the Americans 200 pounds. 190 centimeters or 6 feet 3 inches tall. It is plausable that my sound may be bigger than somebody half my size. The same theory may apply to chest capacity, head size and head cavity size.
The playing sharp issue is possibly unrelated and may be an equipment problem such as incorrect action or leaking tenon corks. It may also be an embouchure problem ie. too tight. It may also be related to diaphragm support. These are just hypotheses.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-03-12 16:12
I'm 5' 1" and weigh a normal amount for that size. I don't have a big problem with big sound. The deal is the velocity and volume of air that one can send through the instrument. Granted, some men have an easier time with volume than women--but we can get the required volume for a big sound.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-03-12 16:41
The concept of the tone on the clarinet is influenced by so many factors I am guessing this player should seek some lessons from a private teacher. The possibility is the mouthpiece may be out of alignment(rails) or many other factors that a professional or excellent player should seek to solve in person with you...
Certainly, an "obnoxious" big sound is more of a problem in that the player is always trying to "tone" their sound down. As to the B40 or B45s they tend to play quite high in pitch and make finding reeds more problematic.
Charles Bay I am sure would be quite interested in having a look at the mouthpiece. If there are any dings in the rails this could be a factor, or even warping of the bore or tip. As to playing with a big sound I would say for a 14 year old you are on the right track if you have alot of control of the sound. Volume will come will development of the embouchure muscles, and for me this took quite a few year....(I have been playing for about 23 years or so)>yikes!
Sincerely,
'
D dow .
David Dow
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2003-03-14 00:22
I propose an experiment. Find the clarinetist with the biggest sound. Hold the palm of your hand 6 inches in front of his mouth. Have him make an embouchure and blow as if he were playing his clarinet. Next, hold your hand in front of your own mouth, make an embouchure, and blow. Look for 3 different things. 1-Quantity of air that hits your hand. 2-Is the air hot or cold¿ 3-Size of the airstream. Is the air focused ona small part of the hand or is it hitting the whole hand¿
You can't buy a big sound, you have to put some air into the horn.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-03-14 05:58
Some mouthpieces are flatter than others. I found that the Zinner blanks that I finished into mouthpieces, as many others do, resulted in a quite flat mouthpiece.
A teacher of mine said that one should take a tiny bit more mouthpiece into the mouth than is comfortable.
Perhaps you could find a teacher who could check your equipment and suggest solutions. Good luck!
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-03-14 13:51
As my teacher tells me, it is not the "size" of the sound that matters, but the projection.
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Author: Michael McC.
Date: 2003-03-14 17:11
In an effort to prove my point to a band director, I demonstrated that air can be "cold" or "warm" from both the upper and lower portions of my lungs. In my experience, it is not where the air is coming from, but the speed of the air that determines its temperature. A common misconception is that all "warm" air comes from deep in the lungs, near the diaphragm, and all "cold" air comes from the top, near the shoulders. Teachers often tell their students to play with "warm" air so as to get them breathing correctly, and not moving their shoulders while playing.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-03-14 17:16
"As my teacher tells me, it is not the "size" of the sound that matters, but the projection."
With apologies to all:
What do you hear when you listen to music from too far away? You hear the high stuff: piccolo, oboe, xylophone, etc. You don't hear the bass clarinet or the soprano clarinet playing in the chalameau. Carrying power or "projection" seems to require high frequencies of sound.
So, "projection" in clarinet sound requires brightness, the antithesis of what American clarinetists strive for. We want to be "dark".
Whenever I listen to professionally recorded music I try to decide if the clarinet sound is bright or dark. Most of the time I decide it tends toward bright, especially in an orchestral setting.
How can we project and be dark at the same time?
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Author: William
Date: 2003-03-14 21:18
In an artical included in this quarters publication, THE CLARINET, regarding Daniel Bonade--legendary clarinetist, teacher and inventor the "the" ligature--it was reported that when he when to the Philadelphia Orchestra, he needed to be able to play louder. To accomplish this, without giving up tone quality, he continued using the same strength reed, but simply inserted a bit more mouthpiece into his mouth. It was also my experiance as a teacher that most beginning and middle school level students tend to play with too little mouthpiece in their mouths. And by inserting a little more--just short of squeaking--they are usually able to play louder with a richer sound. The answer is not necessarily a stiffer reed, but rather how much of the reed is left free to vibrate. Also, perhaps thinking more right hand thumb pressure "upward" will also help. This will "stuff" more mpc tip into your embouchure and help firm up your "bite" without actually biting more. Good luck finding that bigger sound.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-03-14 21:35
William: Curiously, John Butler just gave me the very same advice in a private communication (although he recommended a slightly stiffer reed in addition as well). There must be something to it! I am trying to put it to practice.
Henry
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Author: PJ
Date: 2003-03-14 23:09
This exact same thing was taught to me by my first college instructor. I really works and I've used it with my students with much success. Incidentally, my first instructor was a student of Bonade's. Another instructor of mine studied with Gino Cioffi, Kalmen Opperman and Keith Stein and was taught the same thing by them. Worked for me!
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Author: Burt
Date: 2003-03-15 00:30
I share the opinions that many of you have expressed: volume and velocity of air, not too hard a reed, and enough mouthpiece in the mouth. But I disagree with one item.
When I hear music from too far away, I hear the LOW notes: basses, bass drum, etc. Unless there is something to focus the treble sounds, that's what you will hear. But if you're close enough to hear at a reasonable volume, the high frequencies will be heard even if they are not as loud as the low. That's why piccolos and oboes get heard.
In my mind "projection" is playing loud with the control associated with playing soft There's no mystical sound quality involved. And it's accomplished by the techniques described by the others who have posted to this message.
Burt
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Author: dfh
Date: 2003-03-15 03:14
"How can we project and be dark at the same time?"
...perhaps we could ask the Germans how they do it? ;-)
I found that practicing doulble lip and inserting more mouthpiece helped quite a lot. It is also important that the tongue is in a high enough position. If it is too low ("open"), it makes it harder to get the air moving fast enough to get a good, full sound. (and creates lots of squeeks!) Good luck!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-03-15 14:15
Daniel Bonade did some pretty strange stuff. I seem to remeber a story Harold Wright told me about him forcing his student to play on a mouthpiece he made which was total crap...no could play on them. In fact some students went and got them altered so they could sound better.
Volume is certainly important, but conductors(including Band directors) who know their stuff spend alot of time balancing the winds. If you find your forcing for alot of sound I would beware of the damage this could lead to in your technique.
David Dow
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-03-17 08:11
I've found that the flatter Vandoran profile 88 mouthpieces enable you to take in more than the ordinary kind.
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Author: ctt489
Date: 2003-03-18 03:08
"So you know the environments I play in, I play in concert band at the local college, in a clarinet quartet, and in our city band, which plays outdoors in the summer. In the band, we are usually 2 to a part, in the summer band we are 3 to a part."
You play in bands. Do you really need a fuller sound? You'll be drown out by the brass anyway, and besides whats the difference if you are a hair sharp or flat. It matters if your playing with a full orchestra or chamber group but in band its 'who can play the loudest'.
Good luck finding the ultimate setup. I'm still looking....
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Author: PJ
Date: 2003-03-18 03:17
I would like to suggest that you purchase Keith Stein's book "The Art Of Clarinet Playing." Stein was a great teacher and in his book, he describes some very good points on acheiving a larger sound in addition to some great advice on intonation, technique, etc., which are layed out in terms that are easy to understand. I've studied with a gentleman who studied with Mr. Stein and his methods were very helpful to me. I have this book in my collection and use it quite often as a reference tool. You can find it on Amazon and Barns & Noble's websites for a minimal expense.
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Author: clarigurl
Date: 2003-03-18 18:35
i too did have a "small" sound...and i recently went through an embouchure change. i had to start all over again with mouth positioning and everything...it was really weird. i do think it may be that you are biting down too hard...let go just a bit..make sure your chin is flat. i recommend using a mirror time to time during practicing to check that everything is though as it looks it needs to be. good luck!
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Author: SusanB
Date: 2003-04-05 20:09
I want to thank all of you for your advice. I have just purchased a 66mm chadash barrel and 2 Gregory Smith mouthpieces. Wow, what a difference! I have never played on anything like these before. I went to band and the gal I sit by heard me playing, and she said "Wow, what did you do?" I feel like I have more control over my volume now. I now have the sound I am looking for. Next on the list is to get my R-13 overhauled. It has been 14 yrs since I got it and it needs a few things done to it. Thanks for all the good advice. Playing is a pleasure again!
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Author: funkymunky
Date: 2003-04-06 02:37
Small sound? seems like you need to look for mouthpieces and/or reeds.
Of course embroucher is a main factor too, but try out different reeds and mouthpieces before you try to get that perfect embroucher. You might spend all your time fighting the reed or mouthpiece to sound right. Look for the best sounding reed then try all the different mouthpieces. once you sound good with these you can only get even better with embroucher practice.
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Author: glin
Date: 2003-04-07 03:57
Susan,
Congrats on finding a quality mpc and barrel. Looks like you've solved your problem.
For those who maybe in similar situations, I offer the following:
From my observations:
1)Playing in a civic, community, or school band ensemble requires you to be more aware of blending in as an ensemble. Many times what you think as being marked forte, doesn't translate into forte. For example, if you have a large clarinet section and a small horn section, you may drown them out and ruin the intended sound. So, I disagree with the earlier observation that band is all about 'who can be the loudest'. I will agree, that bands do tend to play loud overall, but good bands constantly work on maintaining balance and good dynamic contrast.
2)So if you play "small", it may be that you are used to the sound concept that is required in you larger ensemble. When you play in a smaller group ala a quartet or solo, your dynamics will probably need to ramp up a couple of notches. This is one thing I notice about some fairly good technical players that have orchestral or small ensemble experience that play in my community bands. They stick out quite a bit and have a hard time blending in. (Not all of them, just some ).
3)If you are playing sharp, and the setup isn't a problem (assuming your teacher has tried your setup and it is fine), you may be biting causing you to play sharp. Be patient with your teacher and together you'll find a way out of your troubles.
Good luck.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-04-08 00:41
I think a previous post stated something to the difficulties of having a small sound. Certainly you would want to retain some of the "intimate" quality of a smaller sound even with the "BIG" sound you change to. The things I like about a more focused smaller tone over a big loud blaring sound is the ability to play with good legato and control over all registers
the B40 will certainly open the volume level up while retaining some of the focus of a smaller tone...I would like to add the B4013 also works very well for those who like to play with a more american style tone....
David Dow
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Author: SusanB
Date: 2003-04-08 04:27
Now that I have switched mpc. and barrel, I seem to play more like the rest of the clarinets in the band. I also feel like I have more control over articulation and dynamics, so now I should be able to control "small" and "big" sounds better. I was mainly looking for a big sound for when I play by myself, and when I play with our outdoor band during the summer. We have a lot of trumpets and not as many clarinets, so the director is always wanting more clarinet sound, especially from 2nd (me) and 3rd clarinets.
I had a wonderful clarinet teacher. He truly loved the clarinet and he inspired that love in his students. Even after I was not a college student, I continued to take private lessons from him, for a total of about 10 years. We had a quartet that was just great. Then he moved away, and the new clarinet teachers at the college wanted nothing to do with me because I was "old"--not a college student and not 18-22. One of them told me this in pretty much these words, right to my face. A couple years later, my teacher that moved away died. He was walking his dog and had a massive heart attack. He has been gone for about 6 years now. I miss him very much. Many times when I am playing, I can hear things that he told me. When I go thru my music we worked on, I see the notes in his handwriting and they make me smile. I saved the notebook we kept about what we did at each lesson, and the things I was working on. I go through the notebook and it is like having a lesson with him again. So, if you have a teacher you love, work hard, learn as much as you can, and cherish the time you spend together!
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Author: susiem
Date: 2003-04-08 17:40
Out of curiosity...
It sounds like you're happy with your sound... does this mean you also are sounding less sharp?
Susie
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Author: SusanB
Date: 2003-04-08 23:15
Susie, yup, that's right! My new gear has cured a lot of my sharp problem. I still am a tad sharp and I can adjust for that, but I am nowhere near as sharp as I was. I no longer have to pull at the bell clear to the cork and I don't have to use tuning rings any more. I went to a Vandoren V-12 3 1/2 from a 3. Don't know if that has much to do with it, but it was the recommended reed strength for the mouthpieces I got.
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