 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-03-04 10:37
OK, we all know there is a 'Big 4' in clarinet manufacturers (Or Big 5 if you want to include Amati), but, does anyont think there is a definitive 'Top List' of reed manufacturers?
I ask because I am seeking to change reeds (unhappy with Vandoren). Like any clarinetist looking for a new instrument, you want to try all the major manufacturers. So I want to try all the 'big brands' or most highly recommended reeds.
Again, thanks in advance guys.
PS> Any direct comparisons? Any recommendations for Larry Combs LC1 mpc? Also thinking of changing mpc too anyway... So reed AND mpc combinations would be welcome too!
=]
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-04 11:28
Morrigan wrote:
> OK, we all know there is a 'Big 4' in clarinet manufacturers
> (Or Big 5 if you want to include Amati), but, does anyont think
> there is a definitive 'Top List' of reed manufacturers?
Amati isn't big enough yet to include.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-04 11:59
Does "big 4" exclude the likes of Howarth and Peter Eaton on the basis of units produced? It could hardly be on the basis of quality.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-04 12:09
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> Does "big 4" exclude the likes of Howarth and Peter Eaton on
> the basis of units produced? It could hardly be on the basis
> of quality.
Yes. The "big 4" has traditionally been based on volume, not quality, though the terms are not mutually exclusive.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-04 12:52
FYI:
Having just tried an excellently prepared "Amati" by Grahams_Music.com, I agree with Mark. Amati has got to come a long way before it can even be considered "professional quality." It looks like a "Noblet," but doesn't play as well. I have told "Amati," through Graham, their distributor in the US, about the problems with their clarinet. If they take my advice, along with other's comments, perhaps they'll have a decent product soon.
Many years ago I mentioned some minor changes to Buffet, during a tour in Paris, but it fell on deaf ears. So I made the modifications myself, with the help of two great repairmen, Herb Kleeman & Jimmy Yan.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: William
Date: 2003-03-04 14:29
Regarding the LC1, it was interesting to hear Larry Combs say that he stopped using the Leblanc mouthpiece bearing name because of his personal frustration with them resulting from "inconsistancies in their manufacturing process." At the IMS clarinet clinic where he made that statement, he also revealed that he was currnetly playing a Richard Hawkins "custom" mouthpiece and using V12 reeds. Later, however, he duplicated something that I heard Benard Portnoy (legendary mpc manufacturer) say a few years earlier that when one switchs to a new mouthpiece, the sound changes for a "couple of weeks." But after that, you return to "your old sound." "Bottom line" implication--no matter what brand or model of mouthpiece you use, you will eventually return to your own sound (the one that has been ingrained in your mind).
A clarinet mouthpiece should be choosen for its playing characteristics--response, intonation and expressive flexabilities--and not its sound. Because, the "sound is you, not your equipement."
The "Big 5th???? How about Rossi? I played an American Bore Bb some years ago at IMS that was "out of this world"--also, unfortunately, out of my price range. But nevertheless, a great instrument.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-03-04 14:42
Well put, Wm, I believe it has occured in my mp explorations, I just didn't notice/realize. "Set-up" research never ends, does it?? Inst. "research" is more difficult, WW/Cl symposia afford fine opportunities, may be costly!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-03-04 16:11
John J. Moses wrote:
>I have told "Amati," through Graham, their distributor in the US, about the problems with their clarinet. If they take my advice, along with other's comments, perhaps they'll have a decent product soon.>
John: would you care to share your specifics with us? I certainly am interested.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-04 19:31
Hi BobD:
I'd be glad to share my comments about the Amati I tried from Grahams Music in NM.
First, let me say, I have only tried this one Amati, so I can't speak with any authority on Amatis in general. Also this Amati was specially prepared for me with Dan Shusta's new synthetic pads, which was the purpose of my trying the horn originally.
The Amati arrived, well adjusted, with 3 barrels, all of them shorter than the standard 66mm. One was a 63, another 64-, and the third, which played the best was a 65-, odd sizes to say the least.
All the barrels played very sharp (above 442), so the horn was unusable for me professionally. If anything is to be right, it must be the pitch.
The Amati is painted(?) black, an awful color, the company logo is huge and poorly designed, the bell ring resembles the old Noblet's ring, a student horn. Those are the minor complaints.
The Amati I tried had major intonation problems, even fitted with a longer (66mm) barrel. The low notes are uncentered and fuzzy. The left hand upper register is quite sharp and bright. The throat tones are flat and lack focus.
All in all, it was an inferior instrument. A poor student model "Big 4."
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-04 20:16
William- I dont think Rossi could be included either...........
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-03-04 21:29
The "Big 5th???? "
What about Wurlitzer? Lots of people play those.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-04 21:49
Liquorice wrote:
> The "Big 5th???? "
>
> What about Wurlitzer? Lots of people play those.
u mean in europe......
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-03-04 22:40
Curious, isn't it, how a question about reeds has evolved into a thread on instruments?
Say, John: what mouthpiece, reed, and ligature did you use when playing the Amati? And what do you usually use?
Regards,
John
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-05 00:59
Hi John:
I use a pretty standard set-up. Studying for many years with Joe Allard, the master teacher, I was taught to play and adjust to just about any
set-up.
My own set-up at the moment is:
HITE- JJM facing (fairly long and close)
Vandoren #5 reeds (vintage 1970-80's)
New FL ligature (Francois Louie-prototype)
Springer 66mm barrel (JJM bore ala Moennig)
Buffet R-13(nickel keys, upper joint all cork pads, Loree thumb rest) 400,***
*note: Jimmy Yan has done all the custom work on my horn for years
BAM (French-made single case)
Yamaha (computer-style double case)
Blayman pegs & stands (from Herb Blayman himself!)
*note: Randy's new "Blayman" stands are great, just like the originals
Lip-guard dental appliance by Dr. Harris Levine in Ft Lee, NJ
*note: many long hours of playing each day, 7 days a week, require it!
Hope that helps,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-03-05 05:29
No offence guys, but when did I mention anything about wanting to change my sound? Can someone please re-read my question and answer it?
Thanks =]
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-03-05 06:49
Bradley wrote: "u mean in europe......"
Yes, that's right. Wurlitzers are played extensively in Germany, Austria and Holland. There are quite a lot of clarinet players in those countries!
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-03-05 12:57
Morrigan,
Tough to pick combos at the same time. Your oral cavity, embouchere, etc. are going to be different than the next guy's, so what works for me might not work for you and so on. Probably a good idea to change one thing at a time so you actually have a fair point of reference. Keep the reeds, change the mpiece, or vice versa.
Good luck with it!
Mark.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-06 03:20
lol- Liqourice,
I was saying that because I have not come across 1 Wurlitzer player ever.
All the players that I know play german clarinets play Uebels. Here in America though, we like our french clarinets lol
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-03-06 06:29
Bradley- what about Michelle Zukovsky? I also heard that the Chicago Symphony clarinet players use Wurlitzer clarients when they play German music.
But hey, I guess that's only 3 or 4 players- not enough to be in the American Big 5!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-03-06 14:55
Morrigan: Everybody seems to take as much personal interest in reeds as in mouthpieces. And in mouthpieces, there is no "Big 4" or any other number. I suspect the largest-selling reeds are likely those made by Vandoren and Rico, Some still sweear by Vandoren, others have abasndoned the brand entirely due to reported inconsistency. The Rico company (owned by Boosey and Hawkes) sells a wide variety of reeds. Some of their brands are favored by players at every level.
I do not use them right now, but the preponderance of reports indicate that FOF reeds have met with great response.
John Moses: I had wanted to discover the exact set-up you used at the time you found the Amati to have poor intonation. My Amati seems to be unusually sensitive to the mouthpiece used, and in fact my preferred MP (Woodwind G7*) on that instrument does not offer intonation as accurate as one or two others. I do favor the sound I get with the G7* enough to use my chops a bit more than I'd like. However, it is my finding that with the right MP, the instrument can offer proper intonation. By the way, mine was furnished with two barrels, the longer of which is 60mm, the shorter 59.5. Go figure. By the way, I find keywork and facility of the instrument to be excellent, but that has been mentioned on other earlier posts.
With regard to the appearance of the Amati, mine in no way appears to have been painted. My observation only. However, it may have been "darkened," a practice which seems to be followed by most manufacturers these days, to which I say "rats." I'd prefer looking at the natural appearance of the wood, whatever it is. The logo? Well, I'm not a graphic designer, so 'll not comment on that. As you are a Buffet player, perhaps the Amati logo appears garish when compared with the rather petite Buffet logo. And as for the bell ring, a comparison with the bell ring on my older Noblet (not a student horn, by the way) shows the Amati to have a much sharper-rimmed configuration, for whatever that's worth.
I am not a professional player nowadays, hence one should take my comments in that light. However, I find my Amati to be an eminently satisfactory performer and well worth the money, no question. Chacon à son goût.
Regards,
Joh
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-03-08 19:03
Hi everyone, I just wanted to make a few comments about the Amati.
Instead of returning the Amati to Graham's Music, I asked John J Moses to send it to me because, frankly, I never saw one before and didn't know anything about their playing characteristics.
For some reason that I don't understand, I did not experience the intonation problems that JJM did. In my trial, I used a new Pomarico Saphire mellow cyrstal mpc and a #2 Legere reed. When I put the instrument together, I used the stock mpc, which I understand is 62mm. I found the clarion region to be absolutely "dead on" from bottom to top. As for the lower region, C4 to trill "B" was slightly flat which required just a bit more lip pressure to center the tone. All of the other notes in the lower region were basically "dead on". However, please note, I am not a professional player and my preferred tongue position is low towards the back of the tongue area which I realize is "supposed" to be arched upward but I personally find this to be a very uncomfortable way of playing. Had I arched my tongue correctly, I suspect the notes I found flat in the lower region would have centered quite easily.
The best way for me to describe the keywork is "rugged". I have the instrument on my lap and as I look at it, the rings are thicker. The upper section has metal on BOTH tennon ends. To sum it up in just a few words, the instrument appears to be "built to take abuse and last a long time".
According to Graham, this is a wide bore instrument with various tapers being used. At the top of the upper section, I measured 0.590 with 0.575 at the bottom of the upper section. Graham told me that towards the bottom there is quite a "flare out" and that the entire design allows a player to "bend notes" more easily.
Graham has sold quite a few of the "professional" series Amati, and my suggestion is if you really want to know more, please give him a call and ask him for some customers names and phone numbers so that you can speak directly to those who play them on a regular basis.
I cannot comment as to how it compares to the "professional" series of the "Big 4", i.e., Buffet, LeBlanc, Yamaha and Selmer simply because I have not played any of their "professional" series (those advertised as being above the student line series.)
Although comments from various people who have seen and played the Amati (including mine) have some value, IMO, nothing really beats having it in your own hands, inspecting it carefully, and actually playing it before coming to any conclusion. IMO, we do it all the time with mpcs and so it is with instruments.
I hope you find the above useful.
Dan
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-03-08 19:21
I have written extensively on the bulletin board about my Amati impressions.
Without repeating everything, I urge you to do a search under my initials and "Amati" and read my reviews.
The Amati 600 series are professional clarinets in every sense of the word. I own a full Boehm A and it is an absolute pleasure to play. (I say this as a long time Buffet user and present owner of 11 R-13's) I am more impressed with it every time I use it.
My only initial quibble was the upper altissimo intonation (slightly high) which I have now solved with more accurate tuning adjustments and a few alternate fingerings.
As Dan and others have said, it is an instrument which should be considered (especially for its attractive price in relation to the workmanship) and another important clarinet brand to sample.
While not yet in the Big 4 (or perhaps not even the Big 5) Amati is well on the right track...GBK
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-08 22:40
The Wurlitzers are to me better clarinets than Uebels, but I just dont know any personally that play them.
I however prefer boehm to oehler because it is just all around better to me.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-08 23:04
Bradley wrote:
> The Wurlitzers are to me better clarinets than Uebels, but I
> just dont know any personally that play them.
Hi Bradley.
Just wondering - have you really spent a lot of time on the Wurlitzers or Uebels, or have you more or less just fooled with them a bit? Same goes for Oehler and Boehm systems.
very seldom in the USA does one get to spend a few years using both.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-08 23:13
Thats why I made sure to say "to me". Here in the U.S. we dont get a lot of good Uebel and Wurlitzer test playing opportunities. I played each a few times, and from MY experience, Wurlitzers are just better.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-03-08 23:43
Liquorice:
Larry Combs said that when the CSO toured Europe a "few years ago", the Oehler factory gave the clarinetists the "run of their facilities" for a couple of days. He reported that they all picked out superb sets of Oehler clarinets and now use them on German music. He further stated, however, that he would never use them on "anything really difficult", prefering to use his Boehm system Opus clarinets instead.
(This info comes from a clinic given by Mr. Combs about four years ago at IMS in DesPlaines, IL USA)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-09 00:07
Bradley wrote:
> Thats why I made sure to say "to me". Here in the U.S. we dont
> get a lot of good Uebel and Wurlitzer test playing
> opportunities. I played each a few times, and from MY
> experience, Wurlitzers are just better.
I've played a number of German clarinets over the years at ClarintFests, and I would have to say that since I really didn't have time to get used to any of them - I have no informed personal opinion.
If I were in the mood for buying one - I'd be spending some really serious time investigating those I could afford - and then take my chances, since you put in your order and the clarinet is made for you.
Post Edited (2003-03-09 01:11)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-03-09 07:17
William: Thanks for the interesting info about Larry Combs switching to Uebel. Wurlitzer are still cashing in by listing his name on their website though!
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-10 03:50
Hi JMcAulay:
"John Moses: I had wanted to discover the exact set-up you used at the time you found the Amati to have poor intonation."
My exact set-up was:
HITE- JJM facing (fairly long and close)
Vandoren #5 reeds (vintage 1970-80's)
New FL ligature (Francois Louie-prototype)
Again, the ONE Amati I tried did not play well. It was not a professional instrument. The other Amati's many of you describe, and seem to like, do not resemble the one I tried. The workmanship was indeed "rugged," I call it poor, and the intonation, with the short barrels provided, was not consistent and tended to be quite sharp.
I would like to try a fine Amati, perhaps a "professional model," and Graham suggests I contact the Amati importers in NJ, as they may want to send me one of their top models. I do not promote any brand of clarinets, and I am not paid by any manufacturers, so I do not endorse anything.
Dan Shusta will be sending me a horn on which to test his new pads, maybe it will be an Amati that I can consider decent enough to play on professionally. Until then, I consider the one Amati I tried to be inferior to any of the "Big 4" clarinets.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-03-10 04:38
Hi, John Moses:
Thanks for the additional information.
You say the instrument you tried "...was not a professional instrument." Might you remember the model number of that piece?
Thanks and regards,
John McAulay
(With so many Johns around, someone could become confused.)
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-10 12:36
Hi John McAulay:
The Amati was sent to Dan Shusta in CT last week, he'll have all the info on it. His post is just above ours on this topic.
Also, the Amati originally came from Graham at Grahams Music.com, so he has the complete history of the horn. I believe he said it had been out a few times as a loaner horn, and a tester for various things.
I assumed it was their professional model, it appears it was not.
Try tracking down Dan or Graham for the details on the Amati I tested.
Good luck,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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