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Author: RogerD
Date: 2003-01-13 11:44
Ok---In high school bands and many community bands the best player is on 1st this clearly makes sense As a general proposition it would appear that the 2nd best player plays 2nd chair 1st and so on
Should this really be so---using that logic the first chair on 2nd clarinet or 1st chair on 3rd clarinet (and 4th if written) would be worse player than all those on first.
Should not the best players be distributed such that the 2nd best player is first chair 2nd clarinet etc.?
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Author: John
Date: 2003-01-13 13:58
That would make a lot of sense if you had enough depth in the section so the players left over could play the 1st parts. In many sections it isn't true that people much beyond the 3rd best player can play the range and technique required in the 1st parts.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-13 14:17
This has been done in some bands but in general players who are good enough to play 1st are not too keen on being, as it would seem, "downgraded"...
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2003-01-13 14:21
I think what make the most sense is to put whoever plays best on solo clarinet, then rotate the rest of the players depending on the piece.
It might look a bit disorganised in concert, but the parts are covered more appropriately and the players are usually happier.
-S
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-01-13 14:44
I'd suggest that consideration be given to "best" in ?what? capacity. That is, in altissimo technique, sight reading, musical "feeling"-phrasing-volume-tonals and individual desire for playing a specific part. In our "quite-good" community band some shifting is done re: cadenzas, march-playing, with some of our "betters" playing 2nd and 3rd parts for more rapid rehearsal accomplishment. I play bass cl, and we have found that close seating with bassoon and bari sax is very beneficial to our cooperation. All this is of course difficult to accomplish by individual "negotiation" by conductors/managers for the overall good of the band/orch.!! Problems ?, YES. Don
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Author: Jean
Date: 2003-01-13 15:37
At the school I attend the instructor moves the parts around quite a bit. As the section leader I always play lst chair lst clarinet. The better students play lst and 2nd. The student who need some work play 2nd and 3rd as most of them don't have the ability (yet) to be playing lst music. For most of them their high range is an issue. This has worked quite well. Most of them are aware they aren't ready for lst parts, although they may have played them in high school.
Jean
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-01-13 16:30
At some places there are no real rules. In my local wind symphony the first couple of chairs are unofficially set, then it's whoever wants to sit wherever. Our principal invited me to play with them this season, so at my first rehearsal in November I sat first chair second part and have been there since. It was one of the few seats left open once I arrived. All the other vets seems satisfied playing third part. I guess it's like church -- "you have to get there early to get a seat in the back."v
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-13 16:34
A complete analysis of section seating theory and practice could constitue someone's university doctoral thesis, and perhaps in the end, have no practical application that would work in every situation. The problems can be practical--technical and musical abilities of players, personal--egos involved and "who wants to sit with whom" and logistical--what strenths are needed on which parts and how to best allocate playing responsibility (director edict, audition, let them sit where they want, principal player's edict and whom they wish least to offend). Many of you can probably think of other equally perplexing interpersonal and technical considerations. But in the end, every musical ensemble has to come up with their own solution that will "work for them."
Personally, I would vote for a seating arrangement with the two best players (one stand) on first, next best two on second and next best two on third with the rest of the section distributed starting with next best two on second stand, first, etc, etc, etc. And all of this on a rotating basis, keeping the original seating for the most challenging musical works. Idealy, this would be initially assertained by audition (behind a screen at the start of each new season) and then, by conductor, personal manager or principal player direction. Players that improve or new players would always have the chance to "move up" or be placed equatilbly in the section thereby providing incentive for individual practice which should result in stonger ensemble performance.
But unfortunately, in the municiapl band where I have played for 43 years, there is no democracy and I don't get to vote. The criteria for seating is "who has been there the longest" or where the (inept) current conductor thinks everyone should sit (since high school, I have gone from last chair third to principal first--on longevity alone). I would gladly welcome some form of audition for placement (I'm really, probably, the best) but old ways are hardest to change and it is best to do things "right from the start."
So, if change is going to occure in your highschool band, it should be done at the begining of the year, or at best between semesters. And I think a rotating schedule would be most equatable for everyone concerned--and educational (giving everyone a chance to "shine"). BTW, good luck!!!!!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-13 22:04
In a band I recently played with the 1st chair player was the person who had been in the band the longest. She was by far not the best player. But there were no tryouts, no changing places. If you came new to the band you sat in the back row unless someone invited you to move up. I was asked to play 1st, but there were 3 first players and sometimes I had to play the 2nd parts if one of the 2nds didn't show for a concert. I found it very discouraging to be polished to perfection on the 1st part and never know whether I would play or not. The 1st player had a very immature tone and technique. After 7 years I realized things weren't going to change because it was a "community band" and so just having fun was the goal. Although I did have fun, I was also very frustrated.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-01-13 23:07
In the band I played in last year, everyone is auditioned. We had a solo clarinet/concertmaster who was always in that chair because he won that chair. Then a 1st chair 1st, then me on Eb/3rd chair 1st. We had 3 x 2nd, and 3 x 3rd, the 3rd chair 2nd played alto, then we had a dedicated bass clarinet chair.
At the start of the year, they audition each of the people who've won 1st chair seats to find the Eb and Solo players. Last year I wanted Eb, this year I want Solo, so that's what I'll be auditioning for.
We never moved seating unless there was a specific request, or good reason for it.
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2003-01-14 00:37
Brenda, I wouldn't be able to stay with a band like yours. Yes, fun should be one goal. However, it's possible to achieve that goal while not sacrificing an equally important goal (at least for dedicated players who constantly strive to improve) which is playing the best that the band is capable of playing. From what you describe, your first part player shouldn't be playing first, and it's a shame that the band director won't step in and correct the situation.
We have 9 clarinets in our section. There are 2 players who've been in the band longer than me, and yet they usually play second and sometimes third while I usually play second and sometimes first. And of the other 6 players, who haven't been there as long as the 3 off us, 2 of them always play first. In our band, longevity isn't the determining factor as to who plays what part. Instead it's who can most effectively cover a part. Having said that, if someone new came to the band tomorrow who was no more effective on second than I or the other 2 are, then that person would be assigned to play third.
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Author: Marge
Date: 2003-01-14 02:34
Interestingly, the laissez faire approach adopted when our community concert band was established in Fall 2001 seems to have worked out quite well. We did not want to scare away potential members by having an audition requirement, especially since we do not have a large population among which to recruit. Therefore, since the music director had no idea what he'd be getting in abilities and experience (except for a few members already known to him), he decided to announce that people should sit where they thought they belonged. He said he would reserve the right to do some shuffling later, but it hasn't really been necessary because, except for one possibly overplaced person I can think of, people assessed their own expertise quite accurately. In our second year, we now have about 45 members (ages 11-91), and this approach still seems to be working. People are free to switch locations (after a concert, when we start preparing music for the next), but changes have been rare. Chair location within a part is meaningless in our group. The rare one-person-on-a-part sections of the music or one-part solos tend to get passed around by consensus among those on the part (at least among the 2nds and 3rds, though sometimes with director involvement with the 1st solos). We don't seem to have any big-ego problems (yet, at least), and of course longevity is not a factor because the band is so new. One possible downside is that, over time, a young person whose skills have improved might be too bashful to move up. However, it's quite likely that olders members (and/or the director) would be aware of the improvement and encourage the young person to change parts.
This, of course, does not address the original query, but indicates yet another way of doing things. For our band so far, which was explicitly intended (by the director and the organizing committee) to be noncompetitive and cooperative in spirit while nonetheless striving for musical excellence, it works.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-14 02:42
Well, thankfully I get to play with a real orchestra with real auditions and a real director and also get to do some solo work from time to time. The band thing was just to keep reading and playing and stay on top of my game, so to speak. It was very frustrating for me to practice a couple of hours or so a day and go into rehearsal with people who hadn't opened their cases since the last week's rehearsal.
So, that's my story about community band.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2003-01-14 04:08
Our regional "All South Jersey" band did indeed seat players as Roger suggests last year. My son who was #2 overall was 1st chair second part, the next player was 1st chair 3rd part. The 4th ranked player was 2nd chair, first part. This group is so competitive that I suspect anyone who made it at all could play any part.
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Author: Azclar
Date: 2003-01-14 06:12
In my high school band one year, we seated every section in the way that Roger suggested. The sound was the fullest sound our ensemble ever got. There were a few things that the lower 1st part players could not play, but they would generally just "fake it" during that section. It worked really well, but players got upset because the previous year, 3rd chair would have been 1st part, but this year 3rd chair was 3rd part. In my band now, we seated ourselves with guidance of the principal player. We only have 5 players and 2 of us share first part when there's no Eb part (if there is, he plays) the next best player is on Bass clarinet, then the next 2 are on 2nd and 3rd part if there's an Eb part and both on3rd if there is no Eb part.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-14 16:56
It's really up to the Dictator(oops, Director), isn't it? If he/she doesn't think the first chair clarinet is cutting it then it's up to him/her to do something about it. and so on. Most clarinetists have opinions about what the Director should or shouldn't do.
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Author: Susan
Date: 2003-01-15 02:36
In our municipal band that plays during the summers, seating is by who has been there the longest. So far, it has worked out that most of the folks who have been there longest are also the best players. I have been in the group 20 years this year, and I am the first 2nd clarinet (we have 3 1st, 3 2nd, and 3 3rd.) I started when I was 18 and got in by recommendation of my teacher. The conductor is great and the music is great.
In the college bands I play in, it is bizarre. There is one clarinet who has somehow plunked herself in the first chair spot, and that is that. We have all been friends for years and nobody wants to rock the boat, so there she sits. One year, there was some sort of uproar from somewhere in the band and the director decided to have auditions. Most people were annoyed with that and did not bother to show up to audition. Some of us did...I was one of those. I played two different selections from Rose. I thought it went pretty well. The outcome: the director put a lady who plays alto sax as her primary instrument and clarinet as her secondary instrument on 1st chair 1st, the plunk-herself-in-the-first-chair-spot lady on 2nd chair first, and me on 1st chair second. I didn't have a problem with that, except for the fact that sax lady and plunk lady did not come in and audition at all!!!! How does he truly know how they play if he did not hear them audition?!!! (He was a new director for the band at the time.) Well, sax lady was horrified and said that she did not want to play clarinet, much less first chair, and please put her on sax. Plunk lady was satisfied, and I got moved up to 2nd first. More on this conductor: At our last concert, another gal and I were playing first. We worked very well together and had worked hard on the music. Plunk lady from the story above was to play with us too, on Eb. She did not show up for any of the rehearsals, even the dress rehearsal. She showed up right before the concert and collected her music. However, there were not Eb parts for all of the music and she needed Bb parts. There were not any more 1st Bb parts, which is what she plays when there are no Eb parts. So just to see what the director would do, I volunteered to give up two of the pieces I had been playing. I was then assigned two bass clarinet parts, which was fine, because I was already playing bass on one other piece. I was totally stunned that he would do this...but I guess I should not have been surprised, based on things he has done in the past. Dummy me, I won't conduct any more experiments again! I just can't believe he would let someone play Eb and 1st that had never attended a rehearsal or seen the music! I think he should have the best sound of the group in mind.
The previous conductor held auditions for parts on the clarinet polka. There were three of us auditioning, and three parts of music. He had us go out into the hall and number 1 2 3.
He did not know who was which number. He then called us into the room, 1 2 3. He was sitting behind a curtain as we played. A totally fair audition, in my opinion, and the seating came out just as it should have, based on ability. (1st went to a lady who is now our area's best clarinet teacher, I was on 2nd, and plunk lady was on 3rd and not happy about it.)
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-01-15 04:05
Susan,
The pluck lady bit sounds simular to something that happened in our community band. In preparation for the christmas concert, the plunk gentleman who had been sitting 1st chair 1st clarinet all summer, missed a practice and the lady who was sitting last chair 2nd clarinet grabbed the 1st chair 1st clarinet spot. Well the director didn't like this but didn't want to rock the boat too much, so he paired three groups and they rotated playing 1st clarinet every two songs. The plunk lady played 1st chair 1st clarinet for two songs then moved to 3rd clarinet for the rest of the concert. I played 1st chair 1st clarinet for two songs and 1st chair 2nd clarinet for the rest of the concert.(I wasn't the plunk gentleman)
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