 The Doublers BBoard
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Author: Loralie
Date: 2007-05-01 19:24
Hi everyone,
The undergraduate theater club at the university I go to is considering putting on West Side Story and Im trying to figure out how to give out the reed parts. I know a few people who double, but not nearly to the extent of what the books call for.
If anyone knows which books have the lead parts for each instrument most of the time and could let me know, then I would really appreciate it. Also, if there is anything in any of the books that is also written for another instrument underneath then that would also be helpful
Thanks in advance for your help!
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Author: marcgilly
Date: 2007-05-01 21:33
I played this earlier in the year with the following orchestration (the more experienced pit players on this board will most likely highlight the number of different versions around):
Reed I: Piccolo, Flute, Bb Clarinet, Alto Sax
Reed II: Eb Clarinet, Bb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet
Reed III: Piccolo, Flute, Oboe, Cor Anglais, Bb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Tenor Sax, Bari Sax
Reed IV: Piccolo, Flute, Bb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Soprano Sax, Bass Sax
Reed V: Bassoon
My impressions were that the parts were ranked for each instrument as follows:
Flute/Piccolo: I, IV, III
Clarinet: II (at least half on Eb), III, IV, I
Bass Clarinet: III, IV, II
The oboe/cor bits are few but soloistic
The saxes are also used very sparingly (bass and bari slightly more) and mostly for effect.
None of the parts had alternative instrumentations written in, but we did use some (eg the reed III played the oboe/cor parts on clarinet).
Hope that helps
Marc
PS this is my first post after a significant amount of lurking, so hello everbody!
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-02 14:09
There are at least three versions of this one floating around of which I have some first hand knowledge, and I've played only two of them. However, from that I can offer the following advice:
o The bass sax part is mostly there for the colo(u)r, and can (and usually is) omitted. Just make sure that the part is played on a bass clarinet, rather than on a soprano one (as I have actually discovered once some twenty years ago).
o The alto sax lead part is essential, as several of the thematic items in the opening numbers have prominent alto sax solo lines.
o The baritone part is minimal except for the extended solo line in "Cool". There, it is critical, as the line loses its effectiveness when played on the piano.
o The tenor part in the baritone/tenor/bass clarinet/clarinet book in the last production I played is not all that essential - interior harmony and all of that. It is also a nuisance to drag around that extra box for such little use. (Much the same can be said of the bass sax, mind you.)
o Of the two bass clarinet parts, the one in the baritone/tenor/clarinet/bass clarinet book that I've played is the more vital of the two. It has the extended obligato line in the Anita/Maria duet late in the show. (The other one was mostly harmonic fill lines here and there.)
o Your group will lose a lot of the effectiveness of the show if you don't have an oboe/cor anglais player on hand. Bassoon is also pretty integral to some of the numbers for the female singers.
This show has been around for so long (and has been altered several times during that period) that it wouldn't surprise me if there were ten or more version available for rent. I don't have a current set of catalogs any longer, so my knowledge of any of the others (and yours seems to be one of those) is pretty sketchy.
One other thing. I've been told that Leonard Berstein originally intended for this one to be performed without violins; all of the "high string parts" were scored for viola. However, I've played productions where there seemed to be some violin players there sawing away with the rest of them. Does anyone know the full story on this.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Loralie
Date: 2007-05-02 15:26
Thank you both so much for your help so far! I looked up the orchestrations on MTI and here are both the regular and the alternate ones that were listed:
Regular
Reed 1: Piccolo, flute, clarinet, alto saxophone
Reed 2: E-flat clarinet, clarinet, bass clarinet
Reed 3: Piccolo, flute, oboe, English horn, clarinet, bass clarinet, tenor saxophone, baritone saxophone
Reed 4: Piccolo, flute, clarinet, bass clarinet, soprano saxophone, bass saxophone
Alternate
Reed 1: Piccolo, flute, clarinet, alto saxophone
Reed 2: Flute, piccolo, E-flat clarinet [optional], clarinet
Reed 3 [optional]: Piccolo, flute, clarinet, tenor saxophone
Reed 4: Clarinet, bass clarinet, baritone saxophone
Reed 5 [optional]: Bassoon
The main issues that I currently have is finding the people who both own and play all of these instruments. Unfortunately, there isin't a single person at my school who can play oboe, E.H and all of the other instruments on that part, so the double reeds may have to be ommited because we won't be able to fit the extra person who plays just those instruments whereever we place the orchestra(unfortunately, the theater in question doesn't even have a pit!)
I will pass on the bass sax advice to whoever gets reed 4. I think my school has 1 bass clarinet, and hopefully they can afford to rent another one for the reed 5 book.
Oh, one more question: I'm assuming that the reed 1 book has all the important flute lines, if I'm not mistaken. How important is is that the other books with flute in it are actually played on flute instead of being transposed to clarinet or something else? I'm asking because as far as I know, I am the only flute player around who doubles on other stuff.
Thanks for your help so far, I really do appreciate it. Its just too bad that finding people and instruments will unfortunately be a major headache if my school even does this show lol.
Oh, and welcome to the boards marcgilly!
Post Edited (2007-05-02 15:34)
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Author: marcgilly
Date: 2007-05-02 17:17
Loralie wrote:
> Oh, one more question: I'm assuming that the reed 1 book has
> all the important flute lines, if I'm not mistaken. How
> important is is that the other books with flute in it are
> actually played on flute instead of being transposed to
> clarinet or something else? I'm asking because as far as I
> know, I am the only flute player around who doubles on other
> stuff.
>
I can recall one incidence off the top of my head where the Reed VI player had the lead flute, as the Reed I player was on alto. Towards the end of the Prologue, after a break, I think. The Finale also has Reeds I and VI swapping the main flute melodic line between themselves. I suppose it depends on your breath control, but in our production, those 4 bars were repeated 3 times to fit with what the cast were doing on stage. I think this melody happens somewhere earlier in the show too, and a similar swap happens in Cool. Otherwise, the three flutes are together for, most apparent in my mind, America and I Feel Pretty. I reckon some 'sympathetic' clarinet playing may suffice in such situations!
Terry Stibal wrote:
> One other thing. I've been told that Leonard Berstein originally intended
> for this one to be performed without violins; all of the "high string parts"
> were scored for viola. However, I've played productions where there
> seemed to be some violin players there sawing away with the rest of
> them. Does anyone know the full story on this.
I'd heard it the other way round - the show is scored for just violins and Bernstein had to convert some to viola parts for the orchestral Symphonic Dances. Certainly there were 7 violin and no viola parts in our version.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-08 19:44
marcgilly wrote:
> I'd heard it the other way round - the show is scored for just
> violins and Bernstein had to convert some to viola parts for
> the orchestral Symphonic Dances. Certainly there were 7 violin
> and no viola parts in our version.
No harm in that in my eyes. Using violas is like using the alto clarinet: sometimes demanded by convention, but never really necessary...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Loralie
Date: 2007-05-09 02:22
It turns out that my school is not doing West Side Story afterall. Oh well, less of a headache for me (they're doing Evita and its much more straightforward).
Thanks for all of your help though!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-06-15 18:58
Make sure parts that need to be swung are indeed swung...alot of classical players tend to play the dotted eigths wrongly.
David Dow
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-15 21:59
And the written out swing is a headache for players used to playing written straight quavers as swung quavers where appropriate (as opposed to reading the long form 6/8 or 12/8 which takes some getting used to).
The quaver passages in 'Cool' are written out all as a dotted rhythm (3/4-1/4), but should be played more loosely (2/3rds-1/3rd) to swing rather than played strictly dotted which will sound stiff and all 'rinky-dinky' if played strictly as written. And straight quavers played over a swing rhythm will sound stodgy (or 'yatty-tatty') - so there needs to be an understanding and 'feel' to how the quavers should be played at any given time.
As WSS is mostly Jazz inspired, it should be played in that manner where necessary.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-20 22:09
I've just had a call earlier on today to do Reed 3 in late October (that's the flute, piccolo, oboe, cor anglais, Bb&bass clarinets, tenor&bari saxes book which I've done before - and I only hope my copy is spiral bound!).
So that's a lot of gear to lug around, and plenty of juggling to do during the show as well.
Though some of the high clarinet stuff I did on Eb clarinet (and reed 2 is playing Eb in unison while reed 3 is on Bb up in several ledger lines), and I used a soprano sax for 'Cool' to save all that running around the throat notes - it's much easier on soprano sax.
I picked up the music earlier and had a choice of two versions - glue bound or spiral bound.
I went for the spiral bound as it lies flat and stays put once the pages have been turned.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-09-21 23:14)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-19 12:59
And at the end of this November I'm doing Reed 3 in this again!
Here's how I arrange the various instruments around me (going from left to right):
Left of music stand: (Eb clarinet) - cor anglais - oboe - piccolo - bass clarinet
Under music stand (but to the right): clarinet - flute
On my right: bari sax - tenor sax
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-21 08:48
Back again.
I was just thinking the other day of just how many woodwind instruments the five reed players have between them:
3 piccolos
3 flutes
1 oboe
1 cor anglais
1 Eb clarinet (or 2)
3 Bb clarinets
3 bass clarinets
1 bassoon
1 soprano sax
1 alto sax
1 tenor sax
1 bari sax
1 bass sax
That's 21 (or 22) instruments between the FIVE players!
So if it's an orchestral rendition, there would probably be:
3 flautists all doubling piccolo
1 oboist doubling cor
3 clarinettists all doubling bass clarinet and 1 (or 2) doubling Eb
1 bassoonist
3 saxophonists?
Which distributes the 21 (or 22) woodwind instruments much better. Fine if you have a concert stage sized orchestra pit, and the strings, brass and percussion need to fit in there too!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Aubstopper
Date: 2009-06-30 08:19
I'm playing the reed 3 part for a production of west side story in a few weeks and i don't know how i'm going to handle all that doubling...luckily, i'm one of the few people out there that ACTUALLY plays all those instruments (and i own most of them)...
the pit that i'm playing in is pretty small, and I have no idea how i'm going to situation all of the instruments...i'm especially worried about my oboe and english horn reeds getting broken :-/
I think that Bernstein was on some sort of opiate when he was orchestrating the woodwind parts.
Instruments: Oboe (primary), English Horn, all saxes, Bassoon, Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Flute, and Piccolo.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2009-07-31 12:07
Aubstopper wrote:
> I'm playing the reed 3 part for a production of west side story
> in a few weeks and i don't know how i'm going to handle all
> that doubling...luckily, i'm one of the few people out there
> that ACTUALLY plays all those instruments (and i own most of
> them)...
>
> the pit that i'm playing in is pretty small, and I have no idea
> how i'm going to situation all of the instruments...i'm
> especially worried about my oboe and english horn reeds getting
> broken :-/
>
> I think that Bernstein was on some sort of opiate when he was
> orchestrating the woodwind parts.
>
Bernstein didn't orchestrate it. Sid Ramin and Irwin Kostal did. When you actually get to play it with the correct instrumentation, you realize what a great job they did. There are colours and textures in that show that don't exist anywhere else in Broadway music.
As for the horn setup, the Reed 3 player I'm working with at the moment has them (L to R):
ob/EH on a double stand
Bass clarinet
music stand
clarinet/flute/picc
bari sax
tenor sax
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2009-07-31 17:36
Merlin,
Having done 5-6 woodwinds in a single show before, I know how long I wanted to warmup. THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE with picc, flute, clarinet,alto, tenor and soprano saxes last summer needed 30 minutes of warmup time in order for me to feel ready for the downbeat of the overture. How long do you need for this current WSS setup of yours?
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2009-08-02 17:06
I may be unique in that my "warmup" is of very short duration. Even with a multi-horn setup such as is required by West Side Story, I generally do nothing more on each horn than to run a chromatic scale through the range of the horn, maybe up and down twice on each just to make sure.
Once that's all done, it's time to make sure of the new notes from the previous performance, set up all of the cumbersome page turns, and otherwise get prepared for the downbeat. I make a quick trip to the can, get a cold bottle of water out of my cooler, and then just wait.
Other than the bassoon reed, which stays in the pot when not on the horn, the other reeds need "moisture maintenance" during the performance. I handle this by 1) usig no mouthpiece caps, 2) periodically "sucking" on each mouthpiece to keep things moist, and 3) noting on the charts where I need to make sure that a horn is going to be ready to go in upcoming moments.
(I also note difficult horn swaps in the part, putting "Bari on lap" when an upcoming change is too fast to allow for pulling it from the rack.)
One thing that is particularly irritating to me as a theatre goer is to hear the members of the pit orchestra working up difficult portions of their parts while waiting for the overture to start. Even in professional groups, there is far too much of this.
Call me old fashioned, but I've always found that the impact of musical theatre is largely gained through the novelty of the performance - hearing six bars of a number "previewed" over and over by an anxious flute player destroys this illusion quite thoroughly. Practice at home, perform at the venue...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Aubstopper
Date: 2009-08-03 21:11
merlin,
I'm not denying that the color is beautiful and so on, but the way that it was organized into the books was very odd. There could be three of us playing flute and all of a sudden i'm playing high C's and the Reed I is playing only A's...then i'm back to playing low harmony ("I Feel Pretty")....or where reed IV is playing bass clarinet and i'm playing flute even though reed IV was playing flute in the previous song and i was playing bass clarinet. There's like only a few short passages for English Horn and only two sections of bari (and no bari in the second half)...They COULD have made it more consistent...that's what i mean.
I ended up doing something similar to your set up...
i had on my left my oboe and english horn...the piccolo under my chair....clarinet, flute, and tenor on the doubler's stand to my right close to the music stand and the bari and bass clarinet on my complete right.
Terry,
I agree with you...it always annoyed me when people would practice right before (or even during the intermission!). The reed II player behind me is always playing on her Eb clarinet right before our conductor comes out...i want to say something, but since i'm much younger than her i feel like it's not my place.
Instruments: Oboe (primary), English Horn, all saxes, Bassoon, Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Flute, and Piccolo.
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2009-08-04 12:25
I definitely agree with PRACTICING right before curtain time can be annoying...but what I was referring to was simply warming up. Especially on the instruments that I am not as competent on, like flute and piccolo. A chromatic scale or 2 works fine on the saxes and clarinet and even with them, if I was doing a solo recital on just 1, I would need more than a minute or 2. So...what I allow is 4-5 minutes per horn, which includes assembly and reed prep time, which IMHO, is not a lot.
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2009-08-04 14:52
I get to the theatre for the 1 hour call. My bass sax, bass clarinet and soprano sax stay on their stands in the orchestra loft. I take my flute/clarinet/picc in with me every day.
First task is to wet the cane reeds and put together the horns. I have a Legere on the bass clarinet, which gets taken apart and cleaned every time I use it. Once everything is set, I head to the green room to refill my water bottle and get a coffee. By the time I return from this, it's usually about 20 after, so I can start warming myself up. (We can't play 'til then due to tech checks.)
I play a bit on the sop/clar/bass clar/bass sax, checking that the tuning is in the ballpark. Then it's long tones on flute 'til things feel comfy. I check some of the high maintenance licks and intervals, then do the same on picc. I clip on my tune and check pitch level.
After that, it's off to the washroom (restroom for you Americans!) because that first act is a long one!
I double check pitch on the flute and picc during the general orchestra tuning, then away we go.
Merlin,
Having done 5-6 woodwinds in a single show before, I know how long I wanted to warmup. THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE with picc, flute, clarinet,alto, tenor and soprano saxes last summer needed 30 minutes of warmup time in order for me to feel ready for the downbeat of the overture. How long do you need for this current WSS setup of yours?
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: brownk
Date: 2010-01-02 16:37
West side is one of the few shows where the bassoonist actually has it easy!
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2010-01-03 03:54
There's a book out on Broadway orchestration that was published in the last year, and in it it is mentioned that Bernstein always had bassoon parts that were undoubled because he had a friend who was employed in all of his shows who only played bassoon.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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