 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben
Date: 2002-09-04 02:40
Recently I have been reading the book "Indivisible by Four", the story of the Guarneri String Quartet, written by Arnold Steinhardt, the Quartet's first violinist (very enjoyable book btw).
On page 196, while recollecting a past performance of Beethoven's String Quartet Opus 59, no. 3, the following is quoted:
The tempo of the last movement was one large question mark. Beethoven's metonome indication was laughably fast and at the twilight zone of impossibility. Purists insisted that any musician worth his salt must adhere to the master's instructions (a whole note was marked for 84 on the metronome), but here the plot thickened. Opus 59, no. 3, had been written before Maelzel had invented his metronome, and Beethoven had added the tempo markings years later, when he was totally deaf. . . . . .
This brought to my mind the fast articulated passage in the final movement of Beethoven's symphony 4, Opus 60 (the following Opus to the above string Quartet). If Beethoven added metronome markings later to this string quartet, isn't it likely he added them later to this symphony, too?
This leads me to two relevant questions for the final mov. of sym. 4: a) What tempo would Beethoven want for this section, and
b) what tempi are common place today, and therefore acceptable in a professional audition.
a) If Beethoven did add tempo markings years after completing the symphony, only after the metronome had been invented, should this matter even if he was deaf? Shouldn't he have been able to see the metronome clicking at a given rate and therefore able to determine that 80 to the bar really was what he wanted (why should being deaf matter if he still could see the metronome opperate)?
b) On the Orchestra Excerpts CD with Larry Combs, he mentions for this passage that if a particulary fast tempo is taken, that some slurs can be discretely added. If this is so, why is it not acceptable in an audition to slur the whole passage? If this is so, is it because the panel would find sluring to be less stylistic or interpretively correct (since Beethoven marked the whole passage articulated), or is it just because they want to see how fast you can tounge the passage? Additionaly, would it be better to play this in an audition all articulated around 72, or at 80 (or faster) with some added slurs? Why?
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-09-04 06:22
Maybe Beethoven forgot to wind up his metronome, yes they were wind up in those days just like clocks and watches, and it was a bit on the slow side. Maybe the metronome marking was a joke, Mozart was not above including humour in his manuscripts, and Beethoven was a bit of a party boy in his day.
Any teacher that insists on inflexible adherence to metronome markings that are unplayable or in bad taste or are likely to stuff up the musical integrity of the piece are not worth listening to. It is better to play somethign alittle slower and right rather than scrambling through too fast and wrong. INTERPRETATION is of primary importance. Are an audition panel going to be checking exact metronome markings. If so they are off their rockers and should get a life.
Pay attention to the descriptive words Vivace, Allegro, Andante etc. etc.. If a piece is marked lively then try and play it that way. Lively does not mean impossible.
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-09-04 13:08
A clockwork metronome doesn't slow down as it winds down, it keeps the right speed till it stops.
Many 'great' conductors have chosen to ignore Beethoven's mm markings, but more recently the trend, particularly amongst the original instrument fraternity, is to observe them.
For an audition perhaps you need to find out which side of the fence the panel are on.
If you choose to slow them down or put in slurs you run the risk of being overshadowed by someone else who doesn't.
jez
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-09-04 13:20
Books have been written about Beethoven and his metronome markings.
After the metronome was invented, LvB went back and added metronome markings to many of his early works, including the symphonies.
The theory that his metronome was faulty has been put forth. I personally don't buy it. Some of his markings are very slow, many are unreasonably fast. Hard to believe it would be faulty both ways.
Beethoven was a passionate, virile guy. He was more interested in the emotion than the perfection. Perhaps if he had been able to hear some performances at the tempos he chose he MIGHT have reconsidered some markings.
Norrington recorded a cycle of symphonies generally following the metronome markings. I believe Gardiner did too. Fascinating stuff.
As for auditions, of course one should never play anything faster than possible. However, you won't get too far playing, say, the mendelssohn scherzo at 60 to the bar.
Fortunately, the last movement of Beethoven's 4th doesn't come up too much on clarinet auditions (it does show up on lists). I took a pile of auditions and I probabaly only had to play it once or twice at most. I played the 2nd movement many, many times, though.
If I was hearing auditions and someone played an excellent Mendelssohn Scherzo and then added a few slurs to the Beeth. 4 (or Bartered Bride) I wouldn't have a problem with it. But committees are strange beasts (and conductors are stranger). The fact that in the orchestra you could slur the whole damn thing and no one in the audience could tell doesn't matter to some. Another problem comes when some motherf. . .comes in and double tongues the whole thing. If he/she also plays everything else as well as you did, you're pretty much screwed.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-09-04 13:29
Interesting asides on the masters and "others". Having recently purchased an old style metronome I can attest to the constant speed..just like a grandmother's clock. One can argue at great length about interpretations of the masters and what they intended.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-04 14:30
The debate and controversy surrounding Beethoven's metronome markings is chiefly due to Anton Schindler, Beethoven first (and highly unethical) biographer (<i>Biographie von Ludwig van Beethoven</i>). He considered Beethoven's markings too fast. Schindler was determined to "correct" Beethoven's metronome markings to a slower speed, and thus (very publicly) voiced his strong opinion - convincing many, for his own economic gain.
With the possible exception of the Ninth Symphony which was written under very difficult personal circumstances (with the metronome markings being dictated to Beethoven's nephew Karl) the trend in recent years has been towards more authentic performances of Beethoven's intentions.
The theories of: 1.Beethoven having a faulty metronome 2.Beethoven being too deaf to realize tempi 3. Beethoven's mental state caused him to error 4.Beethoven misread his metronome etc., etc., etc... have never been proven.
This will be an ongoing debate (as witnessed by the numerous articles and entire books on the subject) for as long as there are critics. Beethoven's metronome markings are indeed playable, and should be considered correct in the context of 19th century performance practice...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-09-04 16:24
GBK -
I did a bit of net research on the development of the metronome. It's unclear whether Maelzel's model had a spring and escapement. It might have been just a pendulum, with a large weight on top, a pivot just below it, and a smaller sliding weight at the bottom (the inversion of the pendulum design used on today's pyramid-shaped models). The descriptions are unclear whether the invention (which Maelzel stole) was just the double-ended pendulum, or that plus a spring and escapement.
See http://www.franzmfg.com/history.htm http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/RawDigests/98.08/digest.98.08.20.txt http://ludwig0van0beethoven.tripod.com/battle.html http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=53666 and http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/earlym-l/logfiles/earlym-l.log9403a
One of these refers to a book, REM HARDING: The Metronome and its Precursors 1938. Reprinted in 1983 by Gresham Books, ISBN 0 905418 42 5.
Lots of interesting stuff, including another Maelzel invention, a mechanical orchestra, for which Beethoven intended his dreadful Battle Symphony, and a chess-playing robot.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-04 17:03
Ken...Thanks for doing so much "leg work" on the Beethoven/Maelzel topic. Certainly lots of interesting details to put in historical perspective.
I always knew some of the background behind Beethoven's heated lawsuit against Maelzel (as if Beethoven didn't have enough troubles in his later years), but not as much as you were able to provide in these references.
Good research. Fun reading. Much appreciated ...GBK
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2002-09-04 17:40
Good, I'm not going screwy!
The community orchestra I joined met for the first time yesterday, and we sight-read Beethoven's 2nd Symphony (thanks to all who urged me to get an A clarinet -- I needed it!). Anyway, the first movement is Adagio Molto, it's in 3/4 and the MM read Quarter Note = 84. That's hardly Adagio, much less Molto. And it's meant to be taken so slowly that you count it in 6. So the heck with THAT marking. The Allegro Con Brio section was more on the mark, in common time with Half Note = 100. But then LvB went back to his old tricks in the Larghetto, in 3/8 at Quarter Note = 92. Now, I'm an orchestra rookie, so forgive me here, but doesn't 3/8 the world over mean the 8th note gets the beat and there's 3 per measure? How the heck do you assign a quarter note tempo in 3/8? Or am I reading it to literally? Eighth Note = 92 I can buy.
I'm just gonna do what the conductor says and listen closely to my recording of Bruno Walter and the Columbia Symphony for a sense of what to do.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-09-04 23:34
Yes - listen to Walter and the Columbia and you'll get a perfectly authentic highly romantic interpretation similar to Karajan, and others (Furtwangler) - however, they are certainly NOT classical/early romantic performances by any stretch of the imagination but, rather, the "old boys' club" approach which is full of over emphasised romanticism - in my humble opinion, give me Norrington, Hogwood or Gardener for these symphonies any day.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-09-05 02:16
Remember Beethoven was totally deaf by Symphony 2 so even if he wanted to hear his music at the tempi he indicates, it just wouldn't sound too great to him. He also spent much of his life in very poor health, so that sort of kills the notion Hat has about his virility and passion. In fact much of his life was spent in isolation after an attempt to take care of his useless nephew...to add injury to insult the film Immortal Beloved doesn't mirror any of the events that led to his demise. In fact Beethoven suffered from a number of dehabilitating illness'...se the book Beethoven's Hair".
I also have personally been on audition committees for an orchestra and can say we would definitely require the player to play what is written if ---it is on the page, then play it. Beethoven 4 is tough but playable compared to some of stuff being written nowadays. In fact the whole issue of slurring it means then the other instruments have to as well (flute bassoon) this means the bit at the finale of the 4th would have to be mirrored ...not logical if you audition it this way. However, I have done it in orchestra concerts with the slur (under the conductors direction) and in other performances as written.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-09-05 02:29
David - you are so right here - his nephew was a grindstone around poor Ludwig's neck.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-09-05 02:59
I am afraid I have been misunderstood.
When I spoke of Beethoven's passion and 'virility' I was referencing his style of performing his music.
As for slurs in the Beeth. 4 last mvt: since the violins play in unison with the clarinet at the spot in question, the clarinet playing softly with an occasional slur added will not 'sound' noticably in the hall if done tastefully. The passage will sound totally articulated to any listener in the hall who isn't specifically trying to determine what the clarinetist is doing. This is NOT the case with the bassoon passage, which is completely exposed.
As I said, different audition committees, different ideas. Some audition committees will give a candidate the benefit of the doubt in this circumstance, given an otherwise superb round (remember, I said I would give the person a break IF they also played an excellent mendelssohn scherzo). Some won't. In any case, if you do not have the required speed to play the standard 'fast tounguing' excerpts (Mendelssohn, Smetena, etc.) you should probably address that before wasting your money attending an audition.
David Hattner
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-09-05 03:19
Dear David
Thanks for the post David, we're inudated with rain here and thunder. So its midnight and just thought I'd say goodnight. The Beethoven book I refer to is excellet reading, he suffered a great deal and had terrible problems with his digestive track. This continued to worsen throughout his later years and recently some doctors feel he had Crohns disease (which untreated is deadly)
As for the solo I think most players have no problem tongueing it. My teacher played it beside me in orchestra and he didn't sweat it. Then several years later I played the solo and didn't seem to have trouble articulating it....anyways Have a good night in NY. and Best wishes in Music Best wishes ....D Dow
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-09-05 12:45
when i played this solo in an orchestra it was ok so long as i stayed relatively relaxed.... in an audition it's so much harder- probably because it feels very exposed (obviously, i'm playing alone) and because i'm in a more stressful state.
another solo like this is Semiramide- a real pain to play in an audition but fine if you just "take it easy" and just "go with it" (i've seen a really good clarinetist totally mess this up and make a fool of herself- she was just way too tense, she was shaking with nerves, but she'd played it in rehearsal with no problems)
donald
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-09-05 12:54
I think most players CAN play it at a certain tempo. But if the marked tempo is taken, I certainly can't and I am pretty fast!
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-09-05 18:45
Just a few observations which may show my age somewhat...
Toscannini, Karajan , Szell(to a lesser degree) all tended to favor pretty quick interpretations of these symphonies.
One can also note how quick Szell and Karajan are especially in Symphony No 7 and the Allegretto here is pretty clipped.
It also seems period instruments seem to favor quick tempi, for expample Roger Norrington really moves the movement mentioned above along quite a bit...
Interpreters like Bohm, Walter tended to more relaxed interpretations of these pieces. Kurt Masur recently recorded the 5th on Teldec which I thought was much more weighty and relxed than some of the jet-set conductors we hear so much of.
I am very fond of the Klemperer recordings with the Philharmonia of London due to weight and expansive quality a slower tempo lends itself to. Maybe the spped of modern living has as much to do with our choice of tempo in spite of the strange markings that Beethoven left. I particularly admire the Bohm 4th with Vienna in spite of the bright nature of the recording.
It also seems the 9th symphony is rushed along somewhat by many conductors...Karajan 1st movement at 14 minutes compared to Bohm at about 17 or 18 minutes. What i do note is at the slower tempo the ability of the strings to articulate clearly every sound without compromise of the tone...the opening triplets in the strings in the 1st movement of the 9th almost suggest otherworldy thibngs when played slowly, when they are quick they tend toward sounding nervous or hectic. We may never know what beethoven really wanted.
the worst performance I have heard is a Naxos one in Zagreb which is so quick it sounds like an exerciese...again the slow movement is almost andante here and it really disturbs me to think that such tempos are going to send one into fits of revery when they sound like a concorde rolling off the taraulin....
Alot of the finer recording like Szell and Karajan are so good becuase even at fast tempos such players are able to make the sound of the music seem "unhurried".
I am not sure but maybe double tonqueing is not always the easiest thing to learn. It also helps if the conductor is sensitive to the problems involved in articulating at such fast tempos.
My favorite Beethoven 9s are:
Karl Bohm Vienna in 81 with Jesse Norman.
Szell Cleveland with tremndous polish...
I also tend to like it when the recording is favorable and not too harsh. I would clearly say that some of Beethoven's markings are interesting but some are really weird!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-09-05 21:57
I cut my teeth on the Toscanini/NBC recordings, which I still love. My next set was Szell/Cleveland. The only strange tempo was the 7th Sym. allegretto, which has always felt much too fast, but is right on Beethoven's metronome marking, for what that's worth.
My favorite modern-instrument set is Bruno Walter with the NY Phil. (not the later Columbia Sym.), which I picked up pristine in a cutout box for $5. The 6th is with Philadelphia, with McLane playing the clarinet solos wonderfully.
For me, the best set overall is Norrington and the London Classical Players, on period instruments. Following up on my "too loud" post, with the classical instruments, everything is in proportion. Even when he went deaf, Beethoven was a great orchestrator, who got just the right sonorities from the instruments he knew. Also, the marked tempos work most of the time on these instruments.
Still, I wouldn't give up the Furtwangler/Beyreuth 9th, even with all those newly shriven Nazis proclaiming that "alle menschen werden brudern."
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-09-06 17:38
Dear Ken
I too admire the artistry of Bruno Walter with both groups but more so the earlier Beethoven Cycle.
One of the more interesting rare recordings is the NY PHil of the Beethoven 7 with Toscannini--- which I like the best of all of his versions. the orchestra here is superb and this is on I believe Columbia records- the CD of this I have is a european version of this recording on a swiss label. I also think Toscannini is excellent as a Beethoven interpreter. Apparently, Furtwangler doing all of the symphonies is available in a set on discs too. The recording quality may be questionable.
All the best,
David Dow
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