 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-07 01:40
How difficult is it for a Boehm system player to switch over and learn the Albert system? Don't tell me "as easy as Turkeys fly" please.
Bob A
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2002-07-07 02:08
I have been an "Albert" player since age ~19 [ie 30+ years], prior to this I was self taught on a Boehm - hmmm!.
Even at this rudimentary stage I suffered great frustration in attempting the switch. In hindsight though, I think I might have stayed with Boehm as now, I look in envy at "full" Boehm system clarinets and think, how much easier it might be for me to play in some "harder" keys than it is at present. The forked fingering and lack of alternative keys can be a problem at times.
The only advantage I can see in using an "Albert" is that one becomes a member of that "club" of which some members perpetuate the myth, in my view, that an Albert sounds different to a Boehm!?
I think the answer to your question is to "suck it and see" - no pun intended. You may find that the Albert system suits you, given, its relative simplicity [ aka - simple system]. On the other hand you may be better to stay with Boehm. Why not get the loan of an Albert from a colleague/friend and see how it sits with you?
Do turkeys fly? I'm not sure - I know emus don't.
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-07 03:03
I like the Albert system for certain types of music. I play lots of music from different parts of the world. Even clarinetists from those places don't always agree on which system to play. For example, I have an absolutely wonderful cd of Albanian clarinet playing. It's really, really, fabulous. The pictures on this disc all show the guy with an Albert system. The only Albanian clarinetist I know personally, who lives in NYC or Jersey or something, plays Boehm. The reason for his playing Boehm is that he learned clarinet in the state schools in Albania while it was under Soviet influence. The reason for the player on the cd I have playing Albert could be one or two things. He's a folk player, trained in the village. The village is in southern Albania, closer to Greece, where most folk clarinetists DO play Albert. So who knows?
I don't know that I can tell by hearing a player which system they use, but I know that certain music I play FEELS better TO ME on the "correct" horn. Turkish stuff on a low G, Greek stuff on a Bb or C Albert, and Bulgarian on a Full Boehm (which I wish I had...).
In terms of difficulty switching, I have very little. I don't mind the lack of alternate fingerings as much as I thought I might, and the cross fingerings don't seem to bother me either. My current challenge is to find a chart for the altissimo register. Anyone know where to find one? 
My $.02.
Katrina
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-07-07 04:46
I have played Albert system clarinets since way, way back, late '40s, to present. I also play Boehm, though not quite as proficiently... I don't claim to be a whiz kid at either one. I admit to being a 'turkey', though, at times but switching clarinets is by no means as easy 'as turkeys fly'. I would say, for me, it's much the same as switching between clarinet and saxophone (fingering-wise, that is). Whichever one you choose to play, it takes practice to become good at it. I played through high school, four years in the USAF (in bands) and several years semi-pro after the service. I never experienced any difficulty related to the 'system' of the instrument. I rarely use 'cross fingerings' (whatever that is) - I suppose that means alternate fingerings. Besides, there are only a couple of alternate fingerings that are any good. Personally, I find no discernable differences -- some horns are made better, and sound better than others -- no matter what system they are.
P.S. to Kat; contact me off the board and I'll get you in touch with a couple of good fingering charts. Or, I can e-Mail descriptions of specific fingerings. Altissimo is pretty much the same as for Boehm. They're not mysterious
How's that C horn of yours working out?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-07-07 14:37
I play my A's infrequently, it's like "it feels so good when I stop beating my head against the wall", due to the long reach for small hands on [my] lower joints, with limited keying!! Don
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Author: John Moses
Date: 2002-07-07 15:14
One of the great jazz players here in NYC plays both Albert & Boehm systems, and seems to have no problems switching back and forth.
I recently played a "Michael Feinstein" concert at Carnegie Hall with him, and he said Jazz is easier for him on the Albert System, although he sounded great on his Boehm Buffet!
Good luck with Albert,
JJM
PS His name is Dan Block and lives in NYC.
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2002-07-08 03:32
Seems Dan Block is good from what you say, but I wonder why "jazz" would be easier for him on an Albert rather than "other" music where he would prefer to use Boehm.
Does jazz, in his experience, necessitate a different playing style and etc..........after all music, from a purely mechanical standpoint, is really just the playing of up to 12 semitones per octave and the manual dexterity required for jazz would be pretty much the same as for any type of music I suspect. I have not brought feeling, sensitivity or interpretation in to the equation as one system over another would not influence any of these things.
I'd be curious to know more of Dan Block's reasons why jazz is easier on an Albert as I am a jazz player exclusively who plays an Albert.
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2002-07-08 05:35
Bob --
The above posts are most interesting, but I find it curious that no one has as yet mentioned that the Albert clarinet fingering system is much like the saxophone. Main difference, besides the shape of the various keys, is that low B flat / clarion F on the Boehm becomes B natural / F # respectively on the Albert. To play low B flat / clarion F on the Albert, use 1st and 2nd fingers R hand along with the little lever next to the second hole R hand, or use 1st and 3rd fingers R hand as a cross fingering.
Don Berger mentioned above that the Albert has a reach in the R hand which is uncomfortable for small hands. FWIW, I find the stretch between 2nd and 3rd fingers R hand to be uncomfortable for hands which are on the large side.
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2002-07-08 06:50
As it so happens I play some alto sax and , whilst there are similarities between sax and Albert system there are two major differences that tend to make me feel that the two should not be compared.
Firstly, the fact that cross-fingerings [ie 1st & 3rd fingers] with either hand can't be done on the sax [in my experience] but can be done [as we know] on the Albert. The RH cross-fingering on my 1911 Buffet, by the way, is slightly out of tune so it is better for me to use 1+2+trill key, but LH cross-fingering is OK.
Secondly, the fact that the sax has an octave key and the clarinet has a 12th key and for this reason in particular, I would never make references to sax fingering to describe clarinet fingering, except perhaps, when explaining to a novice that clarinet is very much more difficult to master.
I think I'm correct here, although I've not played the alto for some time, so I may stand corrected. I reckon I'll get it out tonight and have a looksee.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-07-08 15:33
Right, John K - you discuss very well the relations of the Albert-Mueller to Boehm to saxes. As a long time sax and cl player, I thought about mentioning them, but didn't. Yes, the "usual" sax keying has similarities to and differences from both. In the '50-60s, the famous Selmers, Mark VI [and earliers/laters] were all the rage [I have an alto 6, older son has [my?] tenor 6, would like [still looking for] a sop and bari!! that I can afford!! Then, LeBlanc brought out and patented [have copy] their [competitive] Model 100 [?] [I have the LeB , Beautiful, and Vito alto models] sometimes called a "Buck Rogers", which is complex [for playing and for repairing/setting-up, just ask a repairer!]. It has MANY "fork" fingerings via the "stacks" and wide diffs. in the "big keys" which are a challenge to learn and use, but very useful. Unfortunately these saxes didn't make it as well as the Selmers did, and {I guess} most are now in collector hands, like mine. In this same time period, LeBlanc, on their LL bass cl, had a right-hand 1-3 fork for Ab/Eb [operating an additional tone hole/pad] as alternate to the "usual" left LF lever, also well-worked out and useful. Who says there is nothing new under our sun!! Don
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Author: John Moses
Date: 2002-07-08 18:38
Hi Don & John:
Sorry I can't answer for Dan Block, he's way out of my league as a Jazz player in NYC.
But, he seems to play freer, with a more open sound on his Albert System, and can play a bit louder...just my observations.
Again, I'm the "Legit" guy in town, so why not contact Dan directly to hear a real Jazz player tell his reasons for loving tha Albert System.
Good luck,
JJM
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Author: Seamus Kirkpatrick
Date: 2002-07-08 22:09
Katrina, try http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/ocl_alt_3.html for a good albert system fingering chart.
cheers
Seamus
www.treeskin.com
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-09 01:43
Thanks, Seamus, I had forgotten about those...I had found them on here again just after I posted that message! (Gimme at least 20 lashes with a wet noodle...grrr...)
;)
Katrina
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-07-09 02:15
No wet noodle lashes permitted here, Kat You found 'em, that's what counts. Next to having fun playing the thing, that is...
:)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2002-07-12 23:21
I have always liked the Albert/simple system horns for playing in sharp keys, preferring them for that use over the Boehm. Perhaps the "jazz" folks are forced into sharp keys more often by the instrumentation (bass and piano both being in C, forcing us to add those two sharps). Just a theory, albeit one formed over many years of big band work.
I've just acquired a "new" Oehler/Albert horn (don't know which yet; where are the fingering charts hereon?). It's got more rings (6, none for the left thumb) than any Albert I every played before, but only has 15 keys (far fewer than I'd expect an Oehler horn to have...twenty would be more like it there).
It's a Penzel Muller "brand", but it also appears to have an European hallmark of an Imperial Eagle above the Penzel Muller stamp. Both joints are stamped "B", and there's a "LP" at the upper joint top and front. From fiddling around with it today, it appears to have an articulated C#/G# (Hurrah!!!), as well as two venting pads tied to the 1st and 2nd rings, and some sort of odd mechanism attached to the register key and these vents. On the lower joint, it has an auxiliary Eb lever (Hurrah!!! again), the C# thingamabob, and an odd split way of closing the two pads attached to the C/F key.Many more adjustment screws than any Albert I've ever played, too.
Not too bad of shape for a hundred plus year item. One spring not hooked just right, plus one "puffy" pad (C#/G#; why does that not surprise me), corks all shot and the end of the bell tenon is hacked up around the vent holes. Other than that, in pretty good shape and should clean up well.
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