 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Marge
Date: 2002-02-11 00:49
In another thread ("Clarinet nobody ever heard of"), Ron B. suggested an approx. 50-50 laundry bleach and water solution (soaking 1-2 hrs.) as a way to restore the appearance (color) of my almost 50 y.o. hard-rubber mouthpiece that has faded and become sort of greenish brown where exposed to air and light. I also have a hard-rubber clarinet (c. 1930s) that has spotting and streaking, esp. in and on the bell. He says he has used this process successfully on mouthpieces and on a couple of old Conns.
My question: what does this do to the rubber (which must actually be some kind of composite) and its properties, including musically? I know how corrosive that kind of solution is to hands (and many other things). Chemically, what effect does laundry bleach have on rubber (and whatever else might be in mouthpieces)?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-02-11 02:18
There is a preparation which is available specifically for cleaning clarinet/saxophone mouthpieces. I suggest it would likely be much kinder to a hard rubber mouthpiece than would laundry bleach. www.doctorsprod.com will have information on this material, which I have never used and suggest only because it is intended for this specific purpose. Plus the supplier has a good reputation.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-02-11 04:06
Hi, Marge
I offered the bleach suggestion because it has worked as well as anything I've tried so far with no adverse results. I have, however, no way of knowing the long term effects. I now share your concern. Maybe the Doctor could step in and comment. I would welcome that as an assist to those of us seeking information. I'm sure there's a reason he developed mouthpiece cleaner. Maybe he knows something about rubber clarinet bodies too.
I use the Conn horns as 'loaners' so I have nothing to lose if they disintegrate :|
I've by no means tried *everything*. I would trust anything offered by Doc because his products are developed and tested for specific purposes and are no doubt better than some of the home brews you'll hear about. The Doctor's products receive excellent reviews here. I plan to use his products myself this season because of all the good reports I've read. Now that I know about his mouthpiece cleaner....
:]
p.s. - ages ago we used muriatic acid, not bleach. I've discontinued its use because someone informed me there were concerns about its safety. I have no problem with that; if it's questionable, find something else
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-02-11 12:19
As I see it acid is used to remove the whitish calcium deposits. Vinegar (I use white) is much safer and does the same thing. I don't think acid does anything for the green colour.
Bleach sorts out the green, restoring the mouthpiece to black, but does nothing for the calcium deposits.
I, too would like to know the chemistry of this and what long term effects are.
Earth calling Doc~~~~~~~~!
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Author: drew
Date: 2002-02-11 13:49
I have personally used the bleach method to restore color to hard rubber mouthpieces; however, I would recommend two variations:
Use a diluted solution, something on the order of 1 part bleach to 3 parts water, a 25% solution.
Monitor constantly! I found that even with the diluted solution, the desired effect took only about 5 minutes. Rinse/wash very thoroughly.
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Author: Adoo Fan
Date: 2002-02-11 14:16
Try using 1:5 white vinegar for an hour, gets rid of calcium.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-02-11 15:59
I would not recommend the chorine bleach solution 1:1, 1:3, etc. for cleaning hard rubber mouthpieces - it is much too strong an oxidizing agent and may cause long-term deterioration and destabilization of the rubber matrix - especially on older classic rubber mouthpieces. Some of the discoloration ( I would rather think of it as patina) is due to the residual sulphur compounds reacting with compounds in the air, siliva, contact with synthetic interior case materials, etc.. You can remove these discolorations with various chemical treatments but in the end you risk the same destabilation of the rubber matrix. Most of these discolorations are indeed harmless - to the mouthpiece - and removing or reacting them with other chemicals to restore the pristine black color may cause more harm than good - it also exposes futher rubber reactants that were masked. Several milder treatments may be better than a single harsh treatment.
As suggested, there are two forms of accumulations found in mouthpieces - mineral deposits, and food detritus and attendent bacterial and mold growth. The mineral deposits require chemical removal usually in an acid environment (the 1:5 white vinegar will remove many deposits). There are also chemicals that aid in the removal of these mineral deposits. Bacteria, dried food deposits, mold and mold spores require a different set of chemicals (disinfectants, protease and other enzymes, germacidal, virus killing agents, etc). It is tricky work to combine these two forms of cleaning and sanitizing agents into a robust mixture that works and will not also harm both new and old rubber mouthpieces. Most acrylics and plastics are usually not very prone to chemical damage.
There are a few "home brew" formulations that work moderately well on either type - mineral and biological - but must be used individually and not usually not together. Again, as in a previous post, one should be careful about the types of chemicals used, the concentration, the temperature (increasing the temperature of a rubber mouthpiece makes the rubber much more reactive to added chemicals), and length of exposure. One should be sure that they are getting information from a reliable source, the types of chemicals (many chemicals exist in various forms - oxides, salts, etc. which have very different reactive properties) used and have been thoroughly tested on the material that your mouthpiece is made from, the concentration specified, the dilution and diluant specified (often "hard" tap waters react with some cleaning chemicals and reduce their effectiveness) and the length of exposure, etc..
Good cleaning!
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-02-12 12:13
Thanks Doc. We are so indebted to you for your scientific input to the forum and your products.
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Author: George
Date: 2002-02-12 13:29
As a followup to Dr. Henderson's discussion: NEVER mix bleach with anything but water! Many chemicals in other cleaners will cause the bleach to release chlorine gas, and believe me, that isn't good. (This was one of the gasses used during WWI.) Probably the amounts we are talking about would not kill you, but why risk the damage?
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