 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jim
Date: 2002-01-03 21:50
What dangers are there in playing my wooden clarinet outdoors in cold weather, 30 degrees F for example?
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Author: Kim L.
Date: 2002-01-03 22:03
Cracking! You never want to play a wooden instrument outside!
Kim L.
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Author: Gretchen
Date: 2002-01-03 22:22
if you're blowing 98.6 degrees of warm air into an instrument, and it's 30 degrees outside, the warm air will make the wood expand, cracking the instrument immediately. Don't EVER play your instrument outside when it's that cold!!
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Author: William
Date: 2002-01-03 23:54
Personally, I would advise not playing (anything) outside when it's that cold and I would be looking for a different gig!!!!!! BTW, ever here about the outdoors (open air to us) concert given at the Paul Bunyan winter lumberjacks camp up in Northern Minnesota back in the late 1800's? It was so cold that the notes froze as they left the musicians instruments which made it necessary for the audience to come back, after the spring thaw, to hear how the concert ended. Kind of gives a new meaning to "Water Music"...................Hey. anyhow, Good Clarineting and don't let it become all it was "cracked up" to be!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Author: willie
Date: 2002-01-04 03:10
Try if you can swing it, to find an old plastic Vito or Bundy for those cold air gigs. You can always sell it later or just keep it for a backup.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-01-04 03:27
Bull…, I’ve played clarinet in colder weather then 30 degrees numerous times. Never cracked any instrument.
Vytas
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-01-04 03:28
You can use the cracked clarinet in the fireplace to warm you up when you come inside...
Seriously though, get a plastic / resonite clarinet to use for cold or inclement weather. It's very cheap insurance.
What was that old saying? "You can pay me now, or pay me later"
Keep your wooden instrument indoors where it belongs...GBK
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-01-04 03:32
Don't have one, just curious. Would this anti-play position hold for "greenlines" as well?
Bob A
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Author: Jim
Date: 2002-01-04 13:28
Thanks to all. I did not realize that cracking was such a likely possibility.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-01-04 13:52
While I would not risk a wooden clarinet outside in the cold, it is *NOT* a given that it will crack. If you look up the coefficient of thermal expansion for wood and calculate the stresses induced by such thermal expansion, they are too low to crack the wood *UNLESS* the wood is predisposed to cracking by a hidden weakness. Since we cannot pre-determine if the wood has such a weakness, it is unwise to risk it in the cold. When I was young and did not know any better, I played several different wooden clarinets outside in below freezing temperatures with no problem. I still have and play those instruments today. However, now I would not take such a risk but would instead use a plastic instrument (Greenlines qualifies as plastics in this instance).
On a nice comfortable day, there is no more danger to the instrument playing it outside than playing it inside unless of course you drop it on the concrete or something equally disastrous.
For your own sake you should also try to avoid playing outside in such weather. You can get frostbite, chapped lips, etc. It is unreasonable for band personnel (and other people too) to be out in such weather unless it is necessary. Making music is nice but not a necessity.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2002-01-04 14:33
One of the worst things I ever tried was playing an outdoor wedding in Flint, MI in November when it was 45 degrees. Cold air is more dense, and your pitch will be Way Lower. At this temp, even with a 63mm barrel, you may not be able to get up above A438, if even that high.
If the other instruments are all winds then there will be few problems. If you are playing with guitar, violin, cello, mandolin, etc. they will have to tune down to you. For Piano or Accordion, since there is no resonating air column, they will play close to normal pitch. If you are playing with an accordion as I tried in Flint, to feel at all useful, keep the sheet music from blowing away and put your clarinet back inside.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-04 16:45
I play my Buffet R-13 greenline for outside gigs. No, Bob, you don't have to worry about Greenline cracking--it's made from crushed left-over grenadilla wood and composite materials. That's why I bought it. I play lots of outdoor stuff---from really cold (Christmas time) to really, really hot--the orchestra in Israel in early Sept. So, a plastic or greenline were the choices, and I opted to choke up the cash for the greenline R-13 because a lot of the outdoor stuff we do includes solos.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-01-04 22:32
Everything seems so questionable. It MIGHT crack......
I must say, Vytas, you were quick to say what the thought about crakcing was. Didn't you ever consider yourself just a very lucky person to have that particular clarinet?
If you tell me where you got the crack-proof stuff I'd be sure to get some for myself!
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-01-04 23:09
Brenda, this ties in with your "Rosewood" thread. If the Greenline composit is that good why no Alto/Bass production. Seems like a logical choice considering the shortage of aged grenadilla wood. I'm too stupid to deal with the physics of resonation vs larger bores, but at what point is this not a likely to be a futue option?
Bob A
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-05 00:58
Clarinet timber dimension is relatively impervious to cold, hence unlikely to crack on account of cold.
It is moisture content or lack of it that causes dimensional changes. Surely if you are taking steps to buffer the moisture content of the timber, say by using Doctors Products bore oil then the chance of cracking is minimised and unlikely to be related to cold. Of course some poorly chosen timber will crack no matter what you do to it.
If any environment is more likely to crack a clarinet it surely must be a DRY one, which could be either hot or cold, outdoors or in!
By contrast, the dimensions of plastics are significantly affected by temperature. A well adjusted plastic clarinet can shrink sufficiently in cold to jam the pivots, because the plastic body shrinks more than the metal keys.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-01-05 02:30
David P., -
Bull.. wooden clarinets do not crack on account of cold. Back there in Europe I’ve been playing wooden clarinet(s) in the cold for 20 years, and I never heard anyone to crack a clarinet outdoors in cold weather.
Vytas
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-05 15:05
Bob, I've asked the same question. Why not do the altos and bass clarinets in greenline? I think it's an excellent idea and suspect that it's in the future of manufacturing. I would imagine the manufacturers are waiting to see how well the greenlines are going to go over. I also look forward to other brands coming out with their own type of greenline material so Buffet can get some healthy competition.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-05 16:19
Actually Vytas, I <b>have</b> heard clarinets crack in the cold, and it's not one of the prettier sounds. BTW - "cold" is relative - cold where I heard them crack was about 5 F, and very few places in Europe get that cold. Domeone running to the hall from the dorms with a "naked" clarinet. The absolute humidity on a 5 F day is going to be getting close to 0 - perhaps that's what causes the cracking - but clarinets are more prone to cracking when there is a major temperature change. We speculate on why (temperature differential, humidity, absolute temperature changes, etc.) - it may not be the temperature per se but some other condition related to it - but in almost all the tales I've heard of clarinets cracking it has been after some major environmental change, most often temperature.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-01-05 21:51
Mark, -
All this theory that clarinets crack in the cold is based on speculation and tales. Yes, I did play clarinet at least 4 times in my life at -15C (5F) I had to cut a finger tips from my gloves and wished I had closed hole clarinet. Our orchestra had 9 -12 clarinet payers, some of them played pro selmers. In 20 years I associated with at least a 100 clarinet players and everyone had to play outside on November 7, It was a MUST thing to do. Never heard anyone to crack a clarinet in the cold. Period. NEVER. Clarinets crack for a lot of reasons and the cold weather is not one of them.
BTW Gordon is right on the money.
Regards,
Vytas
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-05 22:33
Vytas wrote:
> BTW Gordon is right on the money.
If Gordon is on the money then re-read my post! It is very, very dry in winter, so if it's moisture content that causes cracking, then low temperatures with the resultant cold, dry air would exacerbate a cracking condition (which I feel is true, but I can't prove it - neither can Gordon, or you). Or don't you know about relative & absolute humidity? If you don't you should read up on it. 40% relative humidity at 5 F is a lot drier than 40% relative humidity at 70 F. Most homes in the winter in "cold countries" are drier than deserts once the heat is turned on.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-05 23:03
Vytas wrote:
>
> Ok Mark, you are right, I’m just an idiot.
Great. Something both of us can agree on.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-06 10:09
A good case, Mark. I thing relative humidity would be more relevant than absolute humidity. After all, no wood drying could occur in very low absolute humidity unless there was associated low relative humidity.
I expect that the most likely scenario for splitting is when the clarinet has been unplayed for some time while in a low humidity (relative or absolute) environment, then subject internally to high absolute humidity as with warm breath while being played.
Although it is likely that a drastic environmental humidity change (from high to low) affects a clarinet (external splits), the most likely occasion for this change to happen is when we go from low to high temperature environments, as you have indicated.
Are there environments with low temperature in conjunction with low relative humidity? Was it in such an environment that you heard the crack?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-06 14:58
I couldn't tell you - it was a kid running late to an rehearsal at Interlochen. The instrument came from the overheated dorm room directly to the outside. The relative humidity in the room must have been close to 5%, since on average the relative humidity in very cold weather up there was normally in the 40-40% range.
It sounded like a rifle shot. We all thought it was a hunter on the property - until we heard a kid scream "Oh ----! Not now!".
The kids are usually pretty careful - it only takes a moment of brain-freeze to mess up. Bassoon,.oboes, violins, violas, cellos, basses, pianos, and just about anything else up there that's made of wood tends to have problems in the conditions up there in the winter. All the kids invest in insulated cases so they can get them to/from the dorms and halls.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-01-06 18:58
For Bob and Brenda - I believe one reason that larger clarinets have not yet been offered in Greenline material is the retooling costs. I suspect that the Greenline was an experiment on Buffet's part that they hoped would catch on. And perhaps it was more likely that people would risk <$2000 before they would an expensive harmony clarinet.
I personally think the Greenline has served Buffet well and hope that its popularity grows along with its market share. Then maybe we'll see manufacturers be willing to absorb thse upfront retooling costs and expand our selection. I also hope the Buffet loses that ugly Greenline label - a frightfully ugly blemish on an otherwise beautiful instrument. IMHO only, of course.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-07 10:25
Weight may be another factor. Isn't the Greenline significantly heavier?
Bass clarinets are heavy enough already without making them heavier.
One of the reasons that Fox plasitic bassoons are made from polypropylene is its low relative density compared with other plastics.....
Polyproprpylene: 0.9
ABS Plastic: 1.0
Acetyl: 1.4
Grenadilla: 1.2
Maple: 0.6
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-07 14:00
I think Fred is right. It's more likely the retooling cost and the fact that Buffet was waiting for demand to catch up with the idea. And, Fred, I agree 100% about the ugly Greenline label. It's really tacky on the case.
The bass clarinet is heavy to begin with, and since most players use it with the floor peg, it wouldn't make that much difference.
The weight of the Bb doesn't really bother me.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-08 13:21
I think the "retooling" issue may be overemphasised.
All tooling operations are already being done on the grenaduilla. All we are doing is changing the stock material.
A modern manufacturing machine shop will already be using CNC (computer controlled) machines. Any changes to the tools required, say because of a more abrasive material, would be easy to make. These machines do not need a huge variety of tools. Any change to the operations themselves would only need changes to numbers in a computer program.
The term 'retooling' is used to refer to the changes in templates and settings when the shape of a product is altered, eg moving tone holes.
This surely is not the case in just altering the material. And now that shapes are programmed into a computer rather than achieved by following a templatre or model shape changes should not be a big issue anyway. I suspect 'retooling' is becoming an obsolete term, except in plants using archaic machinery.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-01-08 23:29
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
> A modern manufacturing machine shop will already be using CNC
> (computer controlled) machines. Any changes to the tools
> required, say because of a more abrasive material, would be
> easy to make. These machines do not need a huge variety of
> tools. Any change to the operations themselves would only need
> changes to numbers in a computer program.
Not necessarily so. CNC machines are generally significantly slower than dedicated machines. Thus any relatively high volume production often does NOT use CNC because the cycle time is too slow, leading in turn to higher costs.
When you use dedicated machines, retooling can be a signficant effort and significant cost.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-09 22:54
diz: Who are you blasting? Why?
dee: I agree. What you say is definitely valid for huge production runs. Clarinet body processing is relatively minute run stuff, and complicated, lending itself ideally to CNC. With so many different models with slightly different bores and tone hole size/placement, and quite frequent changes, doesn't that tip the balance towards CNC, especially when CNC barely needs an operator, whereas dedicated machinery with a template body to copy almost certainly would.
Besides, as I wrote, if dedicated machines with templates are already being used then the can simply be used on the new material. Or am I missing something?
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-01-13 15:39
From playing outside in the cold to retooling...quite a jump. Maybe I'm missing something too. The "retooling" I imagine being a factor is for the molds to make what B refers to as the "billets"....not the machinging tooling. Regarding cold and cracking...I played a wood clarinet all eight years of grade and high school (many years ago) and no one even mentioned the potential for a cracking problem. My inexpensive wood clarinet never cracked despite playing outside and inside in all kinds of midwest weather. The biggest problem was for the brass players...frozen lips and valves. I certainly would never argue with someone's personal experience that is different from mine.....especially if I never played "in his shoes".
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-01-13 16:44
Bob, -
Some people on this board trying to push their "bubble" theory without any knowledge or experience on the subject. My 20 years of experience plying in the cold is more than enough to say "Clarinets crack for a lot of reasons but the cold weather is NOT one of them"
Regards,
Vytas
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