 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2025-01-23 00:01
No doubt there are many possible reasons why the LH clarion notes of a clarinet might not speak (no sound, just a "stopping" sensation), but what would be the first guess as to why? Bridge key adjustment? The RH clarion notes aren't so great either. Fundamental is fine. I've tried different mouthpieces and reeds, obviously, with identical results.
I've got a bunch of books I can consult, but I don't know where to begin.
Thanks for any thoughts.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-01-23 01:29
1. one (or more) fingers not covering tone hole (s)
2. ring keys are not leveled well - either rings are too high so the index and/or middle finger(s) do not seal the corresponding tone hole well, or the rings are too low so the fingers seal the tone hole but the pad next to the ring does not seal well. In fact, the bridge key may help to push the pad next to the middle finger ring to seal if the bridge is adjusted properly.
3. one of the LH fingers accidentally presses on a key that should remain closed.
May be a good time to get in-person lessons.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-23 01:41
It's not that m1964's advice is off--not al all--but rather I find finger or ring key issues things that if present might have also manifested themselves not only in right pinky expression of the Clarion notes you describe, but the lower Chalumeau notes as well (either pinky)--which may be the case too, but you didn't mention these lower notes being problematic--perhaps they are as well.
Full fingered notes, particularly in the Clarion register, are the ones I think most likely to manifest problems if the instrument isn't sealing (well) and/or the player is biting.
When you press the left pinky keys, perhaps with the lower section of the clarinet alone held in your right hand do the pads seal as well as they do when these notes are effected with their right pinky counterpart fingerings?
How's about taking both clarinet sections, one at a time, and put the bottom end over an exposed thigh (or a rubber stop as Karl would suggest) and cover all the holes with the appropriate hand. When you suck air or blow into the top with your mouth how is the seal?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2025-01-23 03:46
SecondTry wrote:
> It's not that m1964's advice is off--not al all--but rather I
> find finger or ring key issues things that if present might
> have also manifested themselves not only in right pinky
> expression of the Clarion notes you describe, but the lower
> Chalumeau notes as well (either pinky)--which may be the case
> too, but you didn't mention these lower notes being
> problematic--perhaps they are as well.
The Chalumeau notes play well. It's just the clarion, particularly the LH clarion, which produces no musical sound at all (there is a "back pressure" when I attempt to blow).
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-01-23 05:27
Bill wrote:
> The Chalumeau notes play well. It's just the clarion,
> particularly the LH clarion, which produces no musical sound at
> all (there is a "back pressure" when I attempt to blow).
>
You have to look for a pad that's opening slightly on the upper section when you press the register key. Play G5 (![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif) ) with your left hand while you try pressing on each pad you can reach with your right hand. It's honestly hard for me to imagine what pad would be open only when you're pressing the register key, but if you find one, you'll have solved the problem. Maybe the slight change in position when you press the RK is causing you to bump into something else - G# key? A key?
My only other thought without seeing and hearing the problem first hand is that the register vent is blocked with dirt, or a piece of the pad covering, so that when the RK is closed (chalumeau) there's no issue, but when it's open (clarion), air can only escape in a very restricted way, so that it acts less like a vent and more like a leak. I've had water in the vent cause high A, B and C to gurgle and sometimes squeak, but I've never experienced what you're describing.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-01-23 05:46
SecondTry wrote:
> How's about taking both clarinet sections, one at a time, and
> put the bottom end over an exposed thigh (or a rubber stop as
> Karl would suggest)...
Rubber stoppers/plugs are very handy to have in sizes that fit the end bores of each section. They sell them at Lowe's and Home Depot and probably any well-stocked hardware store in varying sizes. Any clarinetist who wants to try to do any DIY troubleshooting should have at least a couple of them - one for the lower section and one for the upper.
Some of us who have gotten a little stiff with age may find getting a thigh up into position may itself be a challenge ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif) .
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2025-01-23 14:02
A leak near the top would cause the clarion notes not to come out before the lower register notes are significantly affected.
From the top (i.e. thumb C) check if there is a "first" note where the problem starts. If C and B play fine but A doesn't play then the problem is likely between them.
Usually the problem is worse for the higher notes (a random example, if the leak is from a throat key, then C would be worse than G).
Try kdk's suggestion but use the worst offender rather than G specifically.
It is most likely a key pad leaking but could be another type of leak.
To check kdk's second suggestion, you can try a "bad but still ok note" if there is one, meaning a note that you can definitely feel is not coming out as well as it should but still playing. Then close the register key while playing it, keeping the clarion note with your air/embouchure. If there is no difference then it is likely (but not guaranteed) not an issue with the register vent hole.
There are many (but more rare) possibilities for leaks other the keys/pads. The register vent itself (around it), cracks, random holes, post hole, loose tenon cork, etc.
This is assuming you ruled out a player/mouthpiece/reed issue.
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-01-23 16:32
Going back to basics, have you gone round the whole instrument with a screwdriver to ensure all rods are properly anchored?
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-01-23 16:49
My first thought was register venting, 2nd thought was leaks. Those are well covered in earlier responses above. But those should also affect lower clarion, no? Curious.
I realize the OP is an experienced player, but for completeness's sake I still wonder if there might be excess embouchure pressure vs a relatively soft reed on the higher notes. If I wanted to cause the symptoms described, I could do so that way. That is, the issue may be higher up.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-23 17:56
Take the speaker key off and check the speaker tube isn't blocked with fluff as that's a fairly common thing. Use an old reed sliced up or a nylon bristle brush (the kind used to clean out air brushes) to clean it out as that won't damage or scratch the inside of the speaker tube. If it's an older Buffet, go carefully as those speaker tubes are usually a mere friction fit and displacing them could cause either the pad not to seat or a leak around them if they're not refitted properly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-23 19:49
In your experience Karl, when the register vent is (partially) obstructed and otherwise opened by the player to effect clarion notes, does this obstruction manifest more in the clarion range the more (or less) fingers there are covering holes?
...asking for a "friend" 
Post Edited (2025-01-23 19:50)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-01-23 21:49
I've gotten water gurgling as far down as long B. I usually notice it either with B or with the notes in the LH, but I guess it could affect anything including throat Bb that's played with the RK open.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2025-01-24 09:37
>> In your experience Karl, when the register vent is (partially) obstructed and otherwise opened by the player to effect clarion notes, does this obstruction manifest more in the clarion range the more (or less) fingers there are covering holes? <<
Usually, if there's water in the register vent hole, long B is the most affected by it, and it improves the higher you move.
For any obstruction, throat Bb would obviously be the most affected.
To check the clarion range, you can put e.g. a piece of relatively thick paper (but not too thick like wavy cardboard) only on a part of the vent hole, let the key close on it, leaving just a small crack (enough that it's slightly open), and compare various notes.
>> My first thought was register venting, 2nd thought was leaks. Those are well covered in earlier responses above. But those should also affect lower clarion, no? Curious. <<
See my previous post. Not necessarily. As a top leak "grows" gradually, the upper clarion would start to be difficult, before some notes (from top to bottom) would start to not come out at all, before the bottom range is significantly affected. For example high clarion C or B would stop coming out before you can barely feel a different for the lower range. You can try it by purposely introducing a small leak with thin paper under one of the pads. The leak has to not be too large, since at some point it would make the low range impossible to play and specific notes in the clarion range ok (more or less).
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-01-24 10:49
Bill,
This happens to me all the time. Why? Because I play with soft reeds. I can play from long clarion B all the way up to F5. When I open F5, G5 and above are not heard.
You stated that you tried different reeds. Are they all basically soft reeds?
If your reed strength is around 3, may I suggest tilting the clarinet more downward so that you're blowing more onto the reed instead of into the reed. This has helped me in the past with clarion notes.
I apologize if my theories are too elementary, but it's all that I can think of.
What strength reed are you using?
p.s. Another probable cause just came to my mind. If the amount of the mouthpiece you take into your mouth is too far away from the optimal point on the mouthpiece facing, I believe this can cause the result you are experiencing. I would like to suggest just taking in more mouthpiece and see what happens.
Post Edited (2025-01-24 11:05)
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-01-24 13:52
The first most obvious thing - find another player (preferably someone better than you) and get them to try the instrument... and if they're ok with it you try playing THEIR instrument (both using your own mouthpieces etc of course!).
There's not really any standout "technical" reason why the upper register left hand would not work, but the lower register notes are fine. Inexperienced students, or those with ridiculous mouthpiece/reed set up often experience problems like this, but we have no way of telling if you're in this category.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2025-01-24 22:48
Fortunately -- and often unfortunately -- for me, I own many clarinets. Therefore, I can take the identical mouthpiece and reed(s) onto another Bb and there is absolutely no problem.
The problem clarinets are all very old (but overhauled): (1) ~1920 Dolnet, Lefevre et Pigis, (2) ~1930 Marigaux, and (3) an ~1920 A. Robert. All three of these clarinets were overhauled in the last few years. But I can take, for example, an M series Selmer I've had for over a decade and it plays without these problems (again, same reed, same mouthpiece).
My reeds usually fall into a strength of 3.25 to 3.75, but they are well used. I rotate about 25 reeds at one time but I haven't broken in any new ones recently. Maybe it's time.
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts! Much appreciated!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-01-25 02:00
This is what is happening to me right now:
I switched from Buffet to Selmer, the new clarinet has different key work.
I found my left ring and index fingers do not cover the tone holes well that creates difficulties getting the sound out, mostly because the index (sort of) slides off the tone hole slightly.
Did not have the problem playing Buffets.
So, your problem could be caused by different holes and keys placement/spacing.
I'd carefully and slowly play some scales and arpeggios and see if you can identify any fingers (including the thumb) to be slightly off.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2025-01-25 04:14
m1964 wrote:
> This is what is happening to me right now:
> I switched from Buffet to Selmer, the new clarinet has
> different key work.
> I found my left ring and index fingers do not cover the tone
> holes well that creates difficulties getting the sound out,
> mostly because the index (sort of) slides off the tone hole
> slightly.
> Did not have the problem playing Buffets.
> So, your problem could be caused by different holes and keys
> placement/spacing.
> I'd carefully and slowly play some scales and arpeggios and see
> if you can identify any fingers (including the thumb) to be
> slightly off.
Yes, I did wonder whether the giant tone holes of the Dolnet (very wide bore) might be part of the issue.
Thanks m1964!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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