 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: vtmtbkr98
Date: 2023-12-05 21:35
My daughter is in 8th grade and has played my Aunt's 40 year old student Vito for the past 3 years. She is gifted in music and will continue to play at least through high school, beyond that, time will tell. For Christmas we will be buying her a new clarinet. We have had her test drive clarinets and she likes the Buffet R13. Question about the model choices...to Greenline or not? Nickel keys or silver? My inclination after reading reviews is to go with the Greenline since most people seem to think the sound difference is minimal. Am I making the right choice since she will have this clarinet for the rest of her "career". Being a brass player myself, she of course picks an instrument I have no experience with!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2023-12-06 00:14
Reese Oller wrote:
> Greenline is incredibly susceptible to cracking apart, I've
> heard.
I think you've heard wrong, but maybe I'm wrong. I have heard of them breaking if you drop them on a hard (tile) surface, but I've not heard of them cracking for any other reason. I'm sure there's a few, but it's miniscule in the reports I've heard.
DON'T DROP A GREENLINE - I've heard. My son's Greenline is still intact and is near 20 years old now.
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-12-06 00:22
Mark Charette wrote:
> I think you've heard wrong, but maybe I'm wrong. I have heard
> of them breaking if you drop them on a hard (tile) surface, but
> I've not heard of them cracking for any other reason. I'm sure
> there's a few, but it's miniscule in the reports I've heard.
>
> DON'T DROP A GREENLINE - I've heard. My son's Greenline is
> still intact and is near 20 years old now.
I would just add that *any* woodwind is susceptible to major damage from trauma. I don't think the Greenline series claims to be immune. The point of this material is to prevent routine cracks caused by moisture and/or environmental conditions.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-12-06 00:23
If you live in a dry part of the country or one with big changes in temperature the Greenline is a good choice. I've had mine since 2006 and it's been a great instrument – I did send it to Walter Grabner when I first got to check it over and tweak a few things and have not had any problems since.
Quote:
Greenline is incredibly susceptible to cracking apart, I've heard.
You heard wrong. If dropped on a concrete floor or down a flight of stairs it may break but I wouldn't call that "incredibly susceptible". Most of us take care to prevent those sorts of mishaps.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-12-06 01:39
I would agree that under any "normal" use, the Greenline has more advantages than wood in that firstly you actually get an in tune horn rather than one of wood that "settles" after manufacture. Then there are the obvious advantages to being impervious to humidity AND extremes in temperature. I had made a rash decision to sell a recently purchased (and customized) Greenline only to be in a position just a year later where I had to make my own weather call on playing or not for a gig that was outside hovering around 59 degrees Fahrenheit.
Personally I'd go with silver keys for a bit more durability unless your daughter has a lot of acidity in her sweat. Even then though, wiping the keys off after playing with a cotton cloth will keep those issues down.
Greenline is though a hard.......and somewhat brittle material. I made some sort of lazy move and dropped my horn off my thumb (playing posture) onto a tile floor and the bell snapped off at the tenon (that wouldn't happen with wood, but you may still crack a wooden bell doing the same maneuver).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-06 12:20
Wood with its grain fibers has a lot of longitudinal strength but is susceptible to cracking along its grain. Composites like Greenline have a uniform strength and stability so will not crack in this way but have less longitudinal strength than wood and are more brittle lacking wood's fibers .
If one wants an instrument resistant to climatic issues, then Greenline is the way to go. If one is planning on dropping one's instrument on the floor, then probably best stick to the triangle.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-12-06 19:14
>> I think you've heard wrong, but maybe I'm wrong. I have heard of them breaking if you drop them on a hard (tile) surface, but I've not heard of them cracking for any other reason. <<
Yes, when the Greenline just came out after some time it sort of became known that they tend to break, in particular tenons were breaking from supposedly less force than wood clarinets. Reports of this gradually decreased, with some claiming it is not nearly as much of a problem anymore. It's unclear whether Buffet were actually aware of an issue and improved the material or if it wasn't as much of a problem as it seemed and it was mostly loud panic by some players...
You are also right about the Greenline almost never cracking.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-12-06 22:40
Oops, seems like I've held a fear of the greenline for no reason!
My clarinet ended up cracking just days ago and I'm not happy about it. Maybe next time I get a clarinet, it'll be greenline!
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Author: vtmtbkr98
Date: 2023-12-06 22:58
Thank you everyone for your input. It sounds like dropping any instrument material is a bad idea...duh. But with Greenline you get the added benefit of being able to march with it (if needed) and accidentally leaving it in a hot/cold location would not be detrimental (think young person mistakes). I like the these two aspects of Greenline as long as the quality of sound is negligible.
Also sounds like the recommendation is to go ahead and get the silver keys in lieu of nickel.
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-12-07 00:31
vtmtbkr98 wrote:
> Also sounds like the recommendation is to go ahead and get the
> silver keys in lieu of nickel.
Two tips for maintaining silver-plated keys:
1. Use a microfiber cloth (not a chemically treated polishing cloth) to wipe off the keys after every playing session. You can use the same cloth to wipe the body of the clarinet too, if needed.
2. Place a good anti-tarnish paper strip in the case right next to the clarinet. Always keep the instrument in the case when not in use.
The goal is to prevent the keys from tarnishing. If they never tarnish in the first place, you won't have to polish off the tarnish, which means you won't be removing small amounts of the plating over time.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-07 00:43
There's a lot to be said ( but generally isn't) for instruments one doesn't have to worry about so much, especially if the trade off is for a few grams of tone quality which likely get swallowed up by the average venue anyway.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Pokenerd
Date: 2023-12-07 01:15
The wood thats used in r13s have been really terrible from what I saw- I think the likelihood of a wood r13 cracking on its own is higher than dropping a greenline
If you are dropping clarinet at a height where it would break, it would break no matter the material
Minjun
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-07 04:15
LostConn wrote:
"...The goal is to prevent the keys from tarnishing. If they never tarnish in the first place, you won't have to polish off the tarnish, which means you won't be removing small amounts of the plating over time."
Tarnishing is a strictly cosmetic problem. No reason (IMO) to polish/wipe the keys after each practice session as they do not tarnish quickly anyway.
If there is a need (e.g. when selling the instrument) the keys can be cleaned then.
The tarnish comes off really easy from silver keys.
They are not silver-plated, they are made of silver alloy.
I know that because when I needed to file off one of the keys to get higher cap opening, there was no plating; it was the same silver looking material no matter how much I filed off (about 1mm total).
The goal was to lift F/C and E/B key caps, so I filed the foot of the E/B key at the left lever attachment, where it touches the body. I know I could just bend the key but it would throw off the craw foot alignment bet. E/B and F/C, and on that clarinet (Prestige) there was a small gap between F#/C# key and the craw foot, so my "modification" worked just fine.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-12-07 18:28
>> Also sounds like the recommendation is to go ahead and get the silver keys in lieu of nickel. <<
They look and feel slightly differently. The differences are too small to be significant to most people (regardless of playing level). If you care about keeping them shiny, keep in mind that silver is much easier to polish.
A lot depends on the player and condition. My own clarinet from 20 years ago and almost never polished looks almost like new. I have one customer that after a few years their clarinet looks like it's been in a fire...
Some people are allergic to nickel, maybe just a little, something to consider.
Nickel by itself is more durable as a material, but for whatever reason tends to wear a bit more as a clarinet plating material and depending on player, can wear in a bit of a patchy way. Silver less so.
I think most models are not available with nickel plating, and those that are, only in some countries/areas.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-12-07 19:30
Regarding the non-wood material, I'd heard a while ago a few people were having their bass clarinets crack, not sure which parts. Though it wasn't advertised, I believe the issue was to do with insufficient curing of the material. I'd imagine that sort of cracking might not necessarily be in the same places as reported (tenons), but then again, maybe material that isn't properly cured is what causes tenons to crack more easily. Buying a used one might ensure the instrument is fully cured, having aged that bit more.
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Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-12-07 21:46
m1964 wrote:
>
> Tarnishing is a strictly cosmetic problem.
I disagree. It can feel unpleasant and/or slippery on the fingers and, if severe, can be messy. Moreover, "cosmetic" certainly does not mean unimportant.
> No reason (IMO) to
> polish/wipe the keys after each practice session as they do not
> tarnish quickly anyway.
It's OK for people to have different standards for instrument cleanliness and appearance. Generally, however, the sweat, oils, and possible grime from one's fingers are not good for any part of a clarinet.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-12-07 22:42
LostConn wrote:
> It's OK for people to have different standards for instrument
> cleanliness and appearance. Generally, however, the sweat,
> oils, and possible grime from one's fingers are not good for
> any part of a clarinet.
I have not seen any grime on the keys on any clarinets that I fixed;
The most I have seen was tarnishing, usually from storing instruments in basements or getting water into case and not drying it immediately.
I commonly see a lot of grime on the tenons and tenon sockets- sometimes to the extent that a tenon cannot be fully inserted into the socket.
Regarding cleanliness standards- I, personally, do not work on my car and then play my clarinets. That is I make sure my hands are clean before practicing.
RE: appearance- bought my A a little over one year ago, and it has slight yellowish tinge which does not bother me at all because I know that it can be taken off easily.
I do not feel any difference in touch when I go from my newer Bb to my A, at least not from the little tarnish my A got.
I do feel the difference when I play my back up clarinet (R13 from 1977), because the nickel keys feel slippery.
Interestingly, the keys from my older (1955) Buffet felt better than the nickel keys on 1977 Buffet. Apparently, they were German silver keys and felt great.
After all, if one wants to polish his/hers clarinet after each practice who am I to say 'No' ?
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-12-08 22:12
I've got chrome plated keys on my clarinet-- quite slippery under my fingers. However the chrome will never tarnish, and it probably looks the same as it has since the 90's (so I'm assuming).
Cool!
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-12-09 00:34
Are you sure they are chrome plated? I am not aware of any manufacturer that does this unless you sent your keys out to a custom plating company. Nickel or silver plated or unplated nickel silver alloy would be more standard.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-09 16:35
Crome would be the ideal non corrosive plating, but it's not used because it's too brittle, so would fracture and break away from the keywork during the bending which is a part of standard instrument regulation. As for silver vs nickel, silver is a porous metal so corrosives in sweat will actually penetrate into it. In silver plated brass instruments, this can cause " red rot" in the brass beneath an intact silver plated surface . This silver porosity is more notable with heavier action keywork like on a bass. My wife can leave the touchpads of her bass turning black after only one extended session of playing. I don't recall this being much of an issue back when she was playing the nickel plated Bundy. Corrosion of the two metals seems to be equal when in comes to general humidity, and is probably much of a muchness on a soprano horn with its light key action.
Getting back to Greenline, my guess is that the tenons are significantly weaker than wood, which would likely be more of an issue with a bass, as there you have significant weight and leverage forces on the tenons when the instrument is laid down,or waved around, or knocked etc.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-12-11 22:30
The clarinet I have is a Signet Soloist, and those had chrome plated keys. I haven't had an experience with the plating flaking off or anything, but then I try to be very careful with my clarinet.
My 1193 is already starting to tarnish on the plateau keys (I have quite oily skin, unfortunately).
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-12 16:02
I didn't know that chrome was ever used... you learn something new every day .
Apparently the " acid sweat" thing is a myth, because the Ph variation between people's sweat is negligible. The principle corrosives are the salts, which also attract moisture to create a perfect electrolyte, eating away day and night at the plating if not wiped off after playing. As corrosion develops, so it sponges up the corrosives in sweat more and more and also micro pits the surface of the metal, heightening the surface area to increased oxidation.
That said, the sort of light tarnish that develops from air humidity, tends to form something of a stable barrier against oxidation all the while that it doesn't absorb corrosive agents .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-12-13 00:49
Oh, I see! So it's just that I need to be better about wiping off my keys. Oops...
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-12-13 06:23
I've seen several Signet Soloists (Selmer USA) over the years, and never did I see one with Chrome plating. Can you post a photograph?
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2023-12-13 15:18
Speaking of salts in sweat, I read about a guy who had a problem with firearms that he handled corroding. This problem went away after he reduced the amount of salt in his diet.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-12-14 04:11
I can't understand why more clarinet makers besides Yamaha (Duet+) don't offer fully or better still, partially lined top joints on their wooden clarinets as some oboe makers do which protects the most vulnerable part of the top joint and still ensures the middle tenon is strong as any normal wooden clarinet.
As Buffet already offer Greenline bushed toneholes on some of their clarinets, then why can't they also offer a partial Greenline sleeve in the top joint bore to extend to just below the LH1 tonehole as that will be the best of both worlds - it'll have the resistance to cracking that wooden clarinets don't have and the strong middle tenon that Greenlines don't have.
The tonehole bushings on the trill and side F# keys, throat A, G# and the open G vent will be cut deep enough into the joint to meet the lining, so there's no risk of moisture getting in between the wood and the bore liner if there are any voids. Any waste material from the overbroaching of the top joints to accommodate the Greenline sleeve can always be turned into Greenline composite.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-12-14 05:19
The sleeve would have to be more of an ABS plastic. The Greenline material is way too brittle to be used as a thin liner (shaped and inserted).
Of course I am dying to find out if would be possible to use an "Ultra Ever Dry" coating on the bore and tone hole interiors. That's a project for manufacturers though. Too costly just to buy the two stages of Ultra Ever Dry let alone writing off the horn if the coating does something awful to the wood.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-12-14 18:30
I'm sure a Greenline tube made with a 2.5mm thick wall would be robust enough to be formed or machined and used as a sleeve as it'll be fully supported once fitted. Maybe using more glue to wood dust ratio in the mix than their usual formula.
And as Schreiber oboes and bassoons have for decades had a resin (or 'Duracast') lined bore as standard, there's no reason why they can't at least try using that same thing on Buffet clarinets of all levels.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-14 21:33
Oh la la!......il va falloir y reflechir pendant un long dejeuner.
Ha-ha!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-12-14 21:51
I am surprised (or I missed that) nobody has mentioned that a plus for the Greenline is no long playing-in period but a drawback is that the sound will never change so you'd better love that from the start as that it will remain. Finding a pleasing one requires testing more than just 2 or 3 instruments generally.
And to add, why not get a used clarinet made from wood from back when the grain was denser and the drying process longer and more gradual and complete? It's already played in and has not cracked yet so probably won't if well cared for. And it will be cheaper than a new instrument.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-12-15 00:53
A friend of mine makes Irish folk flutes as part of his work (he originally trained at Schreiber making Bassoons) and does a resin lining on the bore (as Chris describes above). He hasn't had a single instrument returned for cracking in the last 10 years.
Post Edited (2023-12-15 01:50)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-12-15 01:05
Julian Griffiths "Oh la la!......il va falloir y reflechir pendant un long dejeuner."
Anyone?
No, me neither.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-12-15 19:22
It was just a little light jest about Buffet and Parisians.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: pinkcellophane
Date: 2023-12-20 21:36
My dad bought me a Buffet R13 (1965) when I was in 7th grade. I played it in jr high school then 2 yrs of college. Stopped playing for about 30 years and picked the clarinet back up 8 yrs ago still plays great. Don’t be penny wise and pound foolish. Get her the best you can afford.
504 913 6912
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