 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AndrewHP
Date: 2022-07-31 18:41
First time poster here, I've been looking around but could not find an answer anywhere. For about 15 years I have noticed that my A clarinet plays better than my Bb. Both are standard model R13s: I bought the A new in 2001, the Bb new in 2000. Neither have any cracks, sticking keys, pad leaks, or any specific problems so far as I can tell. My A clarinet is much more responsive, mellow, and is easier to blow through, especially on the altissimo notes. The Bb has a thin shrillness to it and is quite resistant. In recent years, the A has gotten better, and the Bb even worse, to the point where I now practice almost exclusively on the A. The Bb just isn't much fun to play on. I have to fight with it! Why would this be?
I'm not a professional clarinetist, but I am an enthusiastic amateur. I've played for 28 years, starting at age 10. Could the problem be ME? Something I'm doing? Thank you for your suggestions!
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-07-31 19:04
AndrewHP wrote:
>... I bought the A new in 2001, the Bb new in 2000. Neither
> have any cracks, sticking keys, pad leaks, or any specific
> problems so far as I can tell. My A clarinet is much more
> responsive, mellow, and is easier to blow through, especially
> on the altissimo notes. The Bb has a thin shrillness to it and
> is quite resistant. In recent years, the A has gotten better,
> and the Bb even worse, to the point where I now practice almost
> exclusively on the A. The Bb just isn't much fun to play on. I
> have to fight with it! Why would this be?
>
> I'm not a professional clarinetist, but I am an enthusiastic
> amateur...
From your description, it sounds like the Bb has a leak. I would take the Bb to a reputable tech for a check-up.
Also, new clarinets (unlike new cars) are not the same. You may have gotten a better than average A and an average Bb.
Still, I would have the Bb checked out first, before making any judgement about its sound quality.
If there are no techs around you, you can send it out to a reputable shop.
I would not be surprised if a tech finds more than one problem on a clarinet that is 22 years old.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-07-31 19:33
AndrewHP wrote:
> Neither
> have any cracks, sticking keys, pad leaks, or any specific
> problems so far as I can tell. My A clarinet is much more
> responsive, mellow, and is easier to blow through, especially
> on the altissimo notes. The Bb has a thin shrillness to it and
> is quite resistant. In recent years, the A has gotten better,
> and the Bb even worse, to the point where I now practice almost
> exclusively on the A.
> Could
> the problem be ME? Something I'm doing?
You can do a quick test to see if there's a major leak in the Bb. Hold the upper section in your left hand, covering all the holes as you would when playing. It helps to moisten your fingertips. Close off the bottom of the bore with your right palm (also moistened). You should be able to create a suction by sucking air out of the top of the bore. You can do this with both clarinets and compare the strength of the vacuum you get in each. Do the same thing with the bottom sections except reversing your hands so you're still holding it as though you're playing.
You can't necessarily see a pad leak, unless it's the size of the Holland tunnel. You can go farther on your own by using a piece of thin paper feeler (cigarette paper of similar), cutting it into a wedge a couple of inches long, and checking the tug on it at four points around each closed pad. You should get equal tug all the way around each pad.
Something could still be leaking even if these tests check out. You still should have a competent tech look it over especially after 20+ years - he'll probably check it as I've just described. But there are other ways just enough air can be getting through - torn pad covers, nicked pad seats, desiccated pads, weak springs allowing a pad to open under pressure, etc. - to cause the air column to be unstable and the clarinet to be harder to blow. Have him check out the A clarinet, too. You often don't know you're working harder than you have to until you no longer have to, because something small got fixed.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-07-31 19:44
AndrewHP wrote:
> Could
> the problem be ME? Something I'm doing?
Probably not, unless the slightly different layout of the holes and keys is causing you a problem. That doesn't seem likely at your age. You can test this (unlikely as it may be) by playing exclusively on the Bb for a couple of days and seeing if it gets any easier to play.
Also, wood instruments (string instruments, too, are susceptible) can change a little if they aren't played on regularly. If I have a run of work using only one instrument or the other, sometimes the one I haven't been using feels a little wonky when I first get it out.
But, as m1964 suggested, this is probably a case of leaks, not a player problem.
Karl
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2022-07-31 19:53
The suction test can find if there is a leak, but it can't rule out if the problem is a leak, because it doesn't catch all leaks. A magnehelic device will fing more leaks.
A great repair tech has taken over my business, Ann & Steve's Music. I recommend him over some of the other techs mentioned on this bulletin board. One in particular has been doing repairs that our shop has had to correct. So don't always run to a latest, hottest, name.
There are also other great techs mentioned here as well.
I still go into the shop and still have a bench there, but mostly to hang out.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-08-01 00:05
Chances are very likely there are loads of natural imperfections on the tonehole crowns/rims which cause leaks. Multiply that by how many countersunk toneholes there are on a clarinet and that will amount to a significant leak.
All brand new, factory fresh Buffet clarinets being sold are far from perfect as they are and will benefit from being completely stripped down and refinished with all new pads and key corks/felts, all new tenon corks and addressing everything else Buffet overlooked at the factory.
Buffet tonehole bedplaces are cut with very sharp crowns and are therefore prone to leaks as the open vessels running across them aren't filled in, as well as being cut thin, they're more prone to bits of wood breaking off to some degree or other.
The only way to address that is have the imperfections filled in and the tonehole crowns levelled and made wider and flatter compared to being left razor sharp as that will both ensure a perfect seal against the pads and also will go to prolong the life of the pads as they won't cut into them like a hole punch.
Some may want to argue the profile of the tonehole rim being made flatter and wider will have an impact on the tone, but I for one don't believe them as I've had no complaints from anyone whose Buffets I've had to do tonehole work on (and that's ALL Buffets) when they've been in for a full overhaul with all new pads. There's no point in replacing any pads if no tonehole work is done as the leaks will still be there.
Porous leather pads also impact on the response and resonance - one way to check if you have porous pads is to cover the entire pads and pad cups in cling film (saran wrap) and bunch it on the back of the pad cups, then see how it plays when all the pads are wrapped up. If it plays much better, then have it repadded with non-porous pads (either waterproof/airtight treated leather, cork or synthetic pads - anything but skin or 'bladder' pads) as well as having all the toneholes levelled and imperfections dealt with.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-08-01 01:48
After you get everything checked out, you might try another barrel for the Bb, which can change the feel and tone. There are a number of after market barrels. Clark Fobes makes a particularly good one
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Author: AndrewHP
Date: 2022-08-01 18:10
Thank you to everyone for your help and suggestions! I followed these checks as best as I am able, and found that there are leaks from the Ab/Eb and F#/C# tone holes. It must have been this way for years, and I never figured out why before now!
I'm definitely going to take both A and Bb clarinets to a tech. Perhaps focused repairs, or perhaps overhauls, are in order. I thought I took good care of my instruments, but I suppose anything will wear out after 20+years. Of note, I did have the upper joints of both instruments replaced with cork pads a year or so after I purchased each one...at a business that is now closed.
I'm in southeast Michigan/metro Detroit. Would anyone know of a good tech or shop in my area? I could also drive to Ann Arbor or Lansing, or ship them out of state, if that's the best way to get high quality work done.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2022-08-01 18:19
Bb and A clarinets have different bores and an A clarinet often plays a little mellower because it's also longer. With that said, it's a matter of the particular A and Bb clarinet you own. Some clarinets in any key can be brighter or darker or more or less resistance than the other. Most professional clarinet players I know try to find a set that matches the other as close as possible when purchasing a new one.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-08-01 18:28
I am also in SE michigan. I go to Meridian Winds in Okemos (just east of East Lansing). They have really good technicians, i have had very good experience with them on my Bb and Eb instruments.
Call ahead an make an appointment, they will most likely be able to fix the issues while you wait.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-08-01 22:26
FWIW- I have had good success having synthetic pads put in. They seal great and really last a long time. Not everyone likes them, but for me the plusses outweigh the cons.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-08-02 18:12
"Of note, I did have the upper joints of both instruments replaced with cork pads a year or so after I purchased each one...at a business that is now closed."
If you had cork pads fitted but the toneholes weren't addressed and still have small nicks and chips in them, then it was a complete waste of time, effort and money having that done as well prepped, high quality cork pads (as well as other types of pads) need absolutely perfect tonehole crowns to seat against.
There are some 'repairers' in my area that cut corners and use crappy quality sheet cork full of holes to whittle cork pads from, then stick them in with hot glue and seat them onto less than perfect toneholes. Some even try to sand them in by sticking a strip of abrasive paper in between the pad and the tonehole in a failed attempt to seat them by drawing the abrasive paper out, but that only causes them to seat unevenly and leaves them rough - not that they were ever likely to seat with all the holes and poor condition toneholes. And then they have the nerve to charge the customer a premium for such poor work.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-08-02 18:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-08-03 01:43
You don't get (create) a seat (impression) in a cork pad - well prepared cork pads seat against the equally well prepared toneholes. They will of course develop impressions over time depending on spring tension of closed keys and from the finger pressure of the player, but cork pads don't need excessively strong spring tension nor gorilla-like grip to close them against their toneholes when they're installed.
There's two ways you can seat cork pads.
One way is to glue (with shellac) the cork pad directly and solidly into the pad cup and then grind the face down with several grades of pumice block (from coarse to smooth) and check how the pad is seating against its tonehole. This method is time consuming as you need to take the key off each time you grind it and check your progress with a feeler gauge and grind down the area that's seating heaviest to even out the pressure between the face of the pad all the way around the tonehole crown and also ensuring the pad side wall is even all the way around the pad cup wherever possible.
The benefit of this method is the pad is very solid and stable as it can't move in the pad cup. The downside being the pad can't be shifted in the pad cup should it need to be (eg. if a key gets bent) and can only be adjusted by further grinding on pumice until it seats.
Another way which is much easier is to grind the face of the cork pad on several grades of pumice block and dome the back of the pad so it can shift around in the pad cup fairly easily, as well as making the pad the correct thickness so the pad sits evenly in the pad cup (which isn't always possible on the side keys of many clarinets). Then install the pad in the pad cup with shellac as that provides a solid foundation as opposed to hot glue as Buffet and others do which is much softer. You may have to check and regrind the pad as the heat of molten shellac can warp the cork pad if the grain pattern in the cork isn't lying parallel to the surface (and cork DOES have a grain pattern like wood).
Whilst the shellac is molten, the pad can be shifted around in the pad cup until it seats against the tonehole and will then remain seated once the shellac cools and hardens. The benefit of this method is the pad can be adjusted at will and at any point in time. The downside is if not enough shellac is used it can lead to noisy action when the pad closes if there's a void (an air space) left between the pad and the pad cup or the pad can eb unstable if it's not fully supported with enough shellac.
In any case, cork pads should seat perfectly by using light finger pressure or spring tension to simply close them against their toneholes as opposed to being forced to close onto them. Excessive spring tension or finger pressure will cause cork pads to stick to their toneholes (especially if they're in a location prone to getting wet and not blotted dry after playing) or cause them to crack.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2022-08-03 18:40
Typically, I would put more time into prepping the tone hole than installing the pad. Without that preparation I could not get the same results. With the tone hole work pad installation was easy. Fortunately I had tone hole tools from the Buffet factory which allowed me to get better results in less time (for Buffet professional models only - other models I had to do the slow, less exact way). Those tools were passed down to the repair tech that took over my business. I don't know if Buffet still sells the tools. I only know two or three others in the US that have them, though there must be a few more.
Please don't look at this as advice to switch to a different technician from one you are happy with. The main point is that cork pads alone do not make a good repair.
Steve Ocone
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2022-08-06 01:46
I'm in SE Michigan / Metro Detroit. in the Royal Oak area
I don't do customer work anymore - directed ppl to Meridian Winds in Lansing area.
But I can help you identify the issues and if it's simple do a quick fix.
PM me if you want.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: AndrewHP
Date: 2022-09-05 08:08
Thank you to everyone, I took my Bb R13 clarinet to Meridian Winds and they found several leaking pads in the lower joint, a loose post, etc. I had them do an overhaul. While the instrument looks and feels like new, it only plays a little better than it did before the overhaul. Not particularly noticeable at all, in fact. I practiced on it exclusively for two weeks after the overhaul, which made no difference in its playability.
My curiosity piqued, I went out and tried a few brand new Bb clarinets of comparable quality, and they play similarly to my own now-reconditioned R13! In other words, resistant to play and squeeky in the altissimo notes. I haven't been able to locate any local A clarinets that I could play to see if for some reason I have an easy time playing A clarinets in general, or if my A is an especially good one. To add another point: I distinctly remember playing on my teacher's Bb clarinet when I took lessons, most recently in high school. She had a 1970s R13 that was so well used that the key finish was worn down to base metal where fingers touch. That old R13 played like butter; a beautiful, full sound, very easy to play.
I can only think of one explanation that fits my observations: I happened to pick a particularly good A clarinet, and that my Bb clarinet and other new Bb clarinets I tried are average.
Anyway, I'm having so much fun getting back into practice that I'm planning to take lessons again. Maybe I can sort this out in person with someone more knowledgeable than me. Thanks again for any more ideas!
Post Edited (2022-09-05 08:10)
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Author: AndrewHP
Date: 2022-09-05 16:37
What is it? Of course it could be me, something I'm doing wrong. I do have the habit of biting. Maybe it's that A clarinets are easier to play than Bb. Some people say A is easier, others that it's harder.
Post Edited (2022-09-05 16:40)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-05 17:22
maybe you are thinking about this backwards. Perhaps you Bb is normal and your A is unusally free blowing and you have just gotten used to it because it is the easier of the 2 to play? Maybe you need to play 100 Bb clarinets to find one that matches your A?
Maybe you should try some new A clarinets next time and see if they match up with your Bb experiences or to your current A. Also you could bring both to the shop and ask an experienced tech to see if they notice the same playing issues between the two.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-05 20:23
OK, maybe, but what could a player be doing to cause the difference in the feel of the two instruments? OP might find some specific suggestions helpful.
Karl
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-09-06 00:01
Others have already posted the possible causes and suggestions. I was just refuting the assertion that the only possible explanation is that his specific A clarinet was a great instrument and all other Bb clarinets were inferior. Millions manage to play all sorts of Bb clarinets without the posted issues.
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Author: AndrewHP
Date: 2022-09-06 02:12
Sure, I completely agree, it stretches credibility to think that there's something unusually good about my old A clarinet. Still, I think Hunter and Ed must be right about having gotten a free blowing/low resistance A and having adapted to that. I was working through this fingering chart:
https://www.wfg.woodwind.org/clarinet/cl_alt_4.html
On my A I am able to play the notes G#/Ab6 through B#6/C7 in various fingerings, speaking immediately, sustained, and in tune with a tuner. This is with no fancy equipment by the way, stock barrel and bell, with the same reeds and Morgan mouthpiece (thank you Ed Palanker). My family members didn't even ask me to stop, and they had no reason to tolerate assault of their hearing. On my Bb and those other few Bbs I tried, I can barely get to altissimo G without risking a squeek, and biting.
I did follow the excellent suggestions here and I'll keep working through them. I'm sure that the people at Meridian Winds would have fixed any mechanical problems, and besides, I have the same problem on a brand new Bb R13.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-06 02:34
AndrewHP wrote:
> On my A I am able to play the notes G#/Ab6 through B#6/C7 in
> various fingerings, speaking immediately, sustained, and in
> tune with a tuner. On my Bb and those other few Bbs I tried, I
> can barely get to altissimo G without risking a squeek, and
> biting.
>
I hope ![[Ab6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/ab6.gif) and ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) weren't the basis of your original post. All kinds of acoustic differences could probably explain differences in high altissimo response. I was assuming the greater difficulty you were having playing your Bb was over the entire range.
Karl
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2022-09-06 02:44
I offered above but I'll mention it again as I'm in SE Michigan.
I can look at your clarinets (even after refurbishment), your embouchure, your playing style and can let you play a couple more Bb and A clarinets as comparison as I'm in the SE Michigan area. PM me if interested, as your profile has no contact info.
A major difference between an A and Bb, which some may and some may not feel, is the widening of the fingers. This can make it more difficult for some people, or conversely make it easier for some people to cover the toneholes. It all can vary depending upon one's biomechanics.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: AndrewHP
Date: 2022-09-06 04:42
Thanks Stephen and Karl. No, it isn't only the high altissimo notes - they are the worst - but the Bb is relatively difficult to play over the entire range.
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