 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-03-09 22:08
What’s the best glue to use to glue a soprano clarinet pad into a cup?
Is it contact cement?
I do know it should be something that heat can melt when it comes time to replace, hopefully years later, the new pad being inserted into a key cup today.
Im going to also guess that cyanoacrylate glue, i.e. super/crazy glues are not appropriate.
Thanks
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2022-03-09 22:20
I did a poll on the clarinet repair Facebook group and these are the most commonly used glues in order of popularity:
1) Glue pellets (available from most instrument repair websites)
2) Hot melt glue (high temp)
3) Amber shellac
4) Hot melt glue (generic)
and tying for fifth place:
5.1) Clear shellac
5.2) French cement
"Best" is obviously subjective, but any of these are a good option. I personally use high temp hot melt glue for most clarinets and amber shellac for leather pads on bass clarinet and saxophone.
Contact cement and superglue have their place in repairs, but never for pads.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-03-09 22:54
I've used the Micro pad cement (tube) since like the beginning of time. Great. But I hear it's no longer on the market. My next plan is the old Duco Cement. I have a few tubes, it's hard to find these days.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-10 00:41
Stick or flake shellac for skin, leather and cork pads.
Hot melt glue for synthetic pads.
Those are the ONLY two options for installing pads and nothing else should be entertained.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-03-10 09:26
Contact glue is just about the worst, or maybe tied for first with super glue... unless it's some kind of emergency.
Re the list jdbassplayer posted...
Glue pellets is not really a type of glue, it's more of a method to apply the glue. I have four types of glue pellets which are different from each other, and all are types of hot melt glue. High temp is relative. Some "generic" hot melt glues can vary in melting temp, and this is just one variable to choosing one type over another.
Amber and clear shellacs can be pretty much identical, sometimes, or different, depending on the exact type, but two amber shellacs can be pretty different. Real shellacs are often not 100% shellac (and even 100% shellac can vary... probably). I've tried at least ten types of shellac, they varied from great to ones I'd never want to use, and pretty much none of it is because of the colour (unless whatever was added to it also influenced the colour, I guess). That's before considering "synthetic shellac", which is basically a hot glue made to behave sort of like shellac.
Point is that the difference between two types of glue pellets can sometimes be huge in comparison with amber and clear shellac, just as an example.
The good is that almost any of these would be ok. It's more about learning how to work with the specific glue you use.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-03-10 22:09
Hot melt glue is hard (IMO) because it's hard to get it "in between", and it's too oozy when soft. It tends to squish out when you are setting the pad, and if you don't get it right, you then have to take the pad off and add glue because it won't move unless you do. I'm not good at "getting the feel of things", but if you are that probably won't be an issue. It also takes too long to harden. Also, you get these tiny "strings" everywhere. It's easy because it's easy to apply. If it leaks out it's easier to clean up.
Shellac is more awkward to apply, but easier overall (IMO). It has lots of "in between time", is thicker when "in between", and hardens quickly. Sometimes it falls out out when it gets very cold (marching), but I expect that the surfaces were probably not cleaned very well. As a gilder, whenever we wanted to get something to stick, we put shellac on the surface first. You can dissolve shellac in alcohol (denatured, ethanol).
IDK what exactly "French cement" is, but if it is what I think it is (on old clarinets), it smells terrible. I think it's some kind of shellac mixture with something like chalk added. If anyone knows, by all means inform us...
Natural shellac (made by beetles) is dark in color, and it's processed to make clear. It's biodegradable. It's one of the wonders of creation. You can eat it - they put small amounts on some candies. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/nutrition-you-asked/why-there-shellac-my-chocolate-mints
Cyanoacrylate glue (super glue) would be impossible to use for pads, because you couldn't level them, and it should generally not be used on instruments. (If you know the exceptions, then you also know where not to use it.) It produces poison gas when heated.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2022-03-10 22:16)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-11 01:43
French cement is essentially white sealing wax. It's shellac with a solid white or off-white pigment. Some types smell better than others.
While contact cement shouldn't be used for pads as it offers no adjustment further down the line, that's not to say it hasn't been used by some makers. B&H used to glue the pads in on their clarinets with it, from the entry level plastic Regent right up to the 1010 - the latter having leather pads installed with contact cement.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2022-03-12 15:16
When my first clarinet teacher showed me how to replace pads, he used candle wax. Not saying it's "the best" or even that it's any good – but has anyone ever heard of that practice?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-12 20:18
Paraffin wax and beeswax can be used to seal around the edges of perforated cork pads where they meet the pad cups to be sure they're airtight, or when installing threaded speaker tubes and thumb tubes, but it's no good for installing pads due to its low melting point.
Teachers and band directors should just stick to their job and not get ideas above their stations when it comes to instrument repair.
Powdered rosin is used by string repairers to bond hanks of horsehair together at the ends when rehairing bows (using a flame to melt it), but not for anything woodwind related. There may be some resin content in the formulation of some shellac sticks, maybe used to bulk it out or make it stickier at lower temperatures.
I noticed Yanagisawa have been using a mix of shellac and hot glue pellets for installing their sax pads - the hot glue being sticky at low temperatures (making a better bond to the insides of clean pad cups) and the shellac setting hard like toffee for good pad support.
For clarinet work, shellac is best. Buffet use hot glue on their clarinets and even that doesn't always adhere well to the insides of some pad cups or to the backs of some pads.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-03-13 09:15
>> For clarinet work, shellac is best. Buffet use hot glue on their clarinets and even that doesn't always adhere well to the insides of some pad cups or to the backs of some pads. <<
I used to use shellac, but pretty much use only hot glue for clarinets (still use mostly shellac for saxophones). I occasionally get a Buffet with a pad that fell out and it looks like it got a clean separation between the pad and glue, or the key and the glue. I'm not sure if it's the weather or just the glue they use, but the hot glue I use is nothing like that and I've never had a pad fall out.
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Author: davidjsc
Date: 2022-03-13 11:05
I used Lepage heavy duty contact cement when I replace tenon cork. Had no problems with it.
DSC
~~ Alto Clarinet; Bass Clarinet; B-flat and C Boehm Clarinets; Albert C Clarinet; Oboe ~~
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-03-14 05:27
davidjsc wrote:
> I used Lepage heavy duty contact cement when I replace tenon
> cork. Had no problems with it.
>
Contact cement is probably the most popular adhesive for tenon corks, but as Chris and others have said, it isn't good to install pads with it.
Karl
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2022-03-14 13:53
I think I remember reading here that somebody used silicone sealant for pads
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-14 15:47
Silicone sealant is no good for pads as it too can't be adjusted once it's set. Like contact adhesive, you only get the one go at seating the pads and once set, you're stuffed should you need to reseat the pads later on.
It also contaminates the surfaces it's been in contact with making it difficult for shellac or any other adhesive to bond to without doing a lot of cleaning up first.
Also shouldn't be used to seal the bow to body joint on saxes with removable bells - epoxy is much better for that as it both forms a structurally strong joint and the lacquer won't be harmed should it need to be taken apart.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-03-14 18:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-14 16:47
Just stick with tried and tested stuff and you won't cause yourself and anyone else any problems. The last thing you want is to turn a cheap and quick fix into an expensive clean-up operation.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-03-14 16:48)
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-03-16 10:55
Major repairs i leave to a skilled repairsman, but as a glue for changing a pad i use nail polish. After it has dried it works exactly like shellac: you can remove or even adjust the pad by heating the key cup.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2022-03-16 13:36
There's a bit of a debate in Germany whether hmg is problematic for the Instrument's acoustics or not ("resonanzoptimierung")
I say that'd be complete bs and since Yamaha, Buffet and IRC Uebel use hmg, I don't see any reason not to do so.
Tough shellac is a perfecly fine material. I got some hmg from music medic and I really like its characteristics, as the melting point is perfect, it hardens quickly enough, but doesn't take too long and is easy to clean, should you have any excess. Has been keeping the pads in place for years now.
I know a really bad technican who doesn't heat the shellac enough, as a result, the shellac can get brittle and pads/ corks fall off rather easily.
Best regards
Christian
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2022-03-16 13:42
Kalashnikirby wrote:
> There's a bit of a debate in Germany whether hmg is problematic
> for the Instrument's acoustics or not ("resonanzoptimierung")
What is hmg?
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2022-03-16 17:54
ebonite wrote:
> Kalashnikirby wrote:
>
> > There's a bit of a debate in Germany whether hmg is
> problematic
> > for the Instrument's acoustics or not ("resonanzoptimierung")
>
> What is hmg?
I suspect hmg = hot melt glue
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-03-16 23:33
ebonite wrote:
> Kalashnikirby wrote:
>
> > There's a bit of a debate in Germany whether hmg is
> problematic
> > for the Instrument's acoustics or not ("resonanzoptimierung")
>
> What is hmg?
I'm so glad you asked. I tried searching on Google and came with some cellulose nitrate based adhesives that are used, among other places, in museum restoration work. Hot melt glue - if that's what Kalashnikirby meant - seems more reasonable to work with.
Karl
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