 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2019-10-27 18:46
Hello,
Recently I'm in a dilemma over if if should I go for either
(a) full restoration of the r13 pair which includes
- repad
- new key /post plating (going for gold-mixed alloy); which includes change of all springs
- bore restoration
(b) simply to purchase a new pair
Just a bit of background, the r13 pair is from the so called "golden era" and I had a couple of local techs including overseas visiting tech which has commented that it is a very good pair of clarinets.
Being so old, there are key rattles, reduced responsiveness from the touch, peeling of plating, thinned out rods etc and even a upper-joint crack on the Bb.
Heck! I even got cut by the peeling plating during a performance!
I have been searching for a new pair of clarinet and yes sure, I have tried some decent enough clarinets but, yet to find something that has been a "real" upgrade to my instrument. There are better ones of the many I tried but, at the same time, don't quite warrant me dumping USD$7000** for a quasi-upgrade.
The repairs that I have been quoted would cost at most with shipping (*with good options that can last me a long-time) probably I estimate it at USD$6000.
A price difference of USD$1000 frankly speaking, isn't that much on this level.
I even went to Japan to try the Yamaha and am of thinking of heading to UK (because of the weak Pound) for the same idea but of course, the latter has work-related matters too.
What would you do if you encounter this issue?
*Note:
I am converting all to USD since it makes things easier.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-27 19:05
One British pound is just over $1.28
Do you mean historically weak?
As for plating it sounds like you have a nickel finish. Gold (or anything more high end) would not go directly over nickel. So the plating on your keys would have to be completely removed (that may explain the really high quote you got).
The OTHER issue is that you have been playing these for many years and you have just gotten use to all the adjustments to pitch and resistance. So any horn(s) that don't need the same accommodations would feel weird.......for awhile.
My recommendation would be to buy new, silver plated Buffets. Try a few but be ready to not be comfortable on any of them for at least six months or so.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-10-27 19:09
Elifix wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Recently I'm in a dilemma over if if should I go for either
>
> (a) full restoration of the r13 pair which includes
> - repad
> - new key /post plating (going for gold-mixed alloy); which
> includes change of all springs
> - bore restoration
How much of the $6K cost is the plating? I ask because it's a major difference between what you're asking about and what I've ever had done. To be honest, I'm a little shocked at what you've been quoted. Simply overhauling the mechanical parts of the instruments - springs, pads and corks, cleaning the wood, refinishing all pad seats - in short restoring the working parts to spec - shouldn't *in my experience* cost nearly $3,000 per instrument. That seems astronomical. As to "bore restoration," be careful what you wish for. Restoring any aberrations may improve the way the instrument plays, or it may not, depending on a lot of factors. But if the basic tone and intonation of the used instruments are good, tinkering with the bore will change one or the other, perhaps in ways you might regret.
>
> Being so old, there are key rattles, reduced responsiveness
> from the touch, peeling of plating, thinned out rods etc and
> even a upper-joint crack on the Bb.
>
All of that can be repaired by a good repair tech. The plating could be buffed down to eliminate peeling edges. That issue depends on how adamant you are about wanting the plating to begin with. There was a time (within my lifetime) when some considered plating to be detrimental.
> The repairs that I have been quoted would cost at most with
> shipping (*with good options that can last me a long-time)
> probably I estimate it at USD$6000.
>
> A price difference of USD$1000 frankly speaking, isn't that
> much on this level.
>
Well, if the $6,000 is realistically necessary to get the result you want, and if you can find a pair of clarinets you can be equally happy with, then, no, the $1,000 difference isn't much.
> What would you do if you encounter this issue?
I would talk to another repairer or two. (I'm still playing on Bb and A clarinets made in 1972 and 19082 respectively. I have had them periodically overhauled and have no complaints.)
Karl
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-27 20:00
"Plating coming off" is relative,
I've been playing on horns in horrid condition - plating wise - but I've never noticed how that would hinder a beatiful tone. Usually though, having them nickel- or silverplated would've been way too costly. So the question is, do these horns truly require it? Won't buffing just do it? Perhaps you could upload some photos...
The price looks like an outright rip-off. Where are you located? Here in Germany (and I won't bother converting) you pay 400-500€ for a good complete service per instrument, plus 100-200€ for plating, so you really shouldn't have to pay more than 1500€ for that service. Add maybe 500€ if that instrument is "extra needy", but I know good techs who do excellent work for that money. So unless you can't find a cheaper one - I mean, at least regarding ones located in Germany, I could recommend you a few - you're better off converting this pair into cash - and you'd be surprised how much people are willing to pay as soon as you put that "Golden Era" tag on them. Likewise, that may imply R13s are always worth repairing - chances are, they'll be overhauled by a professional retailer and sold in their shop.
An honest tech, like any other competent tradesperson, wouldn't recommend you to dump this much money into a repair, in my opionion. They'd tell you whether or not the instrument is worth the effort and they'd have you chose between several options. Plating the posts isn't necessary at all; spare rods for Buffets are available, as are old style pivot screws.
During my last visit in London, I went to Howarth. They do have great instruments and will let you test almost any of them. Dawkes should be worth a visit too. A new pair of CSVRs or SEVRs could be had for relatively little and you wouldn't have to bother having them serviced for a long time, because out-of-the-box, they're set up quite well and the pads are really solid. Same goes for Uebel. Their advantage would be an excellent R13-replacement.
Here's something you may find interesting, I just looked it up: Dawkes sells a rod and pivot screw set for an old Buffet A for just 5 pounds.
Of course, fitting them to a heavily used instrument might be a challenge - but as you can see, spare parts are readily available.
Best regards
Christian
Post Edited (2019-10-27 20:10)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-27 22:39
Christian suggested Yamaha's. At least look at them. I have to agree as I personally question how happy you will be with new Buffets. They aren't like the old ones you have, but the old ones may be pretty dead. If you want that old small bore style from the 1960'd give Guy Chadash a ring. I've tested a few of his and they are very good. You can freely use my name. With his adjustable barrels they are a very nice fit. Prices are around $6000.
The Yamaha's CSVR's are very nice and I feel they out play the present R13's. They just play so easy and the A clarinet is the best A I've ever played on. I keep getting standing ovations! These horns work. Yes everyone plays differently but it's surely worth checking out.
Harold Wright often said he likes changing horns every 8 to 10 years. I think I like this even if it's not needed, getting new horns is always fun. To be honest, I'd like to get new Yamaha's every 5 years or so. But that's crazy. I also feel that these horns are aging well and they sound better and warmer each year. Do they sound like Buffet's? No, but the new Buffet's don't sound like the 1960's Buffet's so we can't really compare. Not an in Honest way, which you can live with yourself. Buffet is still living from their past 60's R13 and it won't last. These were the only Buffet's that went up in value. Actually tripled in cost when present Buffet's drop in value. Anyway, check out Guy for a really sweet Buffet.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-10-28 00:41
Elifix wrote:
"Hello,
Recently I'm in a dilemma over if if should I go for either
(a) full restoration of the r13 pair which includes
- repad
- new key /post plating (going for gold-mixed alloy); which includes change of all springs
- bore restoration
(b) simply to purchase a new pair..."
One more factor to consider: how much you pair would be worth after restoration?
Unless you can restore them for much less than $6000, I cannot see any sen1se in fixing them if, after the restoration, they would be worth less then you spent on the repairs.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-28 01:38
Somehow, there’s no way to increase the instruments‘ value by restoring, that is to say, even with the cheapest offering you can find, it’s better to sell them how they are.
As much as I love certain Buffet clarinets, don’t go for modern R13s. They‘d have to be at least Prestiges to match what you’re used to, or carefully selected, or both... Key fitting is pretty bad, for example, and you hardly find a Buffet with silent LH pinky levers.
Sorry to bash them this harshly, but one actual case of „it’s not what it used to be“.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-28 04:43
Anyone who restores old cars knows that you do it for the love of it. A full body off restoration of a '57 Chevy will make it worth far more than it was before the restoration but you'll never recoup the amount spent getting it there.
Love it or leave it?
The age old question.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2019-10-28 07:06
Thanks for the quick feedback.
I will just reply in point form since it's easier.
*Note: all prices are in USD$
@kdk
(1) Pricing breakdown (per clarinet)
- $450 = silver plating
- $900-1300 = gold alloy plating
I am counting based on the most expensive possibility so it might be cheaper.
Perhaps the high pricing seems to come from the FX-rate between my country vs USD$.
It is on the high side if I add in all the gizmos but, the company that I seek the quotation from is reputable enough among the market.
@Kalashnikirby
(1) I will drop a pm to you for recommended companies.
(2) Yes, I that Dawkes music does sell spare parts. So am looking into it as well. Quite a bit of basket-adding to weigh my cost thou and of course, significantly cheaper per part as well too.
If I am going to dump that amount of money into it, then yes I won't bother looking for any clarinet for the rest of my life.
Of course, I do understand that the repair price will outweigh the resale price for the clarinets even after the supposedly major surgery.
Post Edited (2019-10-28 07:08)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-10-28 07:47
I assume you mean it will cost $3,000 per clarinet with the most expensive plating option, so that leaves about $1,700 per clarinet for the repairs without plating. That still sounds pretty high even if you are at the more expensive areas of the most expensive countries... but still a little "weird"...
Replating only matter if you care that it looks new and/or if you specifically cause some kind of extreme wear. If the original is nickel, it can wear and leave sharp edges, but even this can be polished usually. This will likely negate replacing all springs too (BTW the springs can usually be removed and put back, if it's more or less playable now it's unlikely that all need to be replaced).
As others mentioned, the clarinets most likely won't be worth as much as the repair cost alone, but the reason to repair is that you like them and want to play them.
I bet you could have them repaired to excellent condition for much less but it depends on how you want them to be cosmetically, etc.
If you do buy new clarinets, make sure you buy the exact ones you like. To use Buffet as an example, I've tried so many just in the last few months. The best of the newer ones (let's say three years or newer) was a Tradition model. Among the very good ones were a Tosca, R13, RC Prestige. Among the worst ones were a Tosca, Tradition, R13... you get the idea...
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Author: TomS
Date: 2019-10-28 10:08
Yamaha CSVRs ... or maybe the Backun "Q" model ... both of these manufactures actually "finish" their instruments. Oh, of course you can always tweak and customize them more ... but they will play pretty good right out of the case ... you won't have to go thru 20 clarinets to find one that you like ...
If buying new Buffet pair, throw in another $500-$1500 to get them fixed before you an use them confidently.
Also, Buffet dries their wood in ovens to drive the moisture out, and then soaks them in oil to reduce cracking ... so, the new clarinet wood will have more grain and "checks" (a crack wanna be). I don't know about Yamaha, but Backun naturally seasons their wood under controlled conditions in a warehouse, not in an oven.
It might be that the repair technicians just see dollar signs and are inflating the value of your old Buffets to get your business?
Tom
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-10-28 17:11
Well, if you have your clarinets fully restored--plating, swedging, new springs and tension adjustment, all new pads, etc.--it's hard to be sure exactly how they will turn out, whereas when you try a new instrument, you know pretty well how it's going to play. So, if you find a new set you like, it's a bit safer. If not, then you won't be happy unless you try refurbishing your horns.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-28 17:45
Elifix - seems like your mind is made up. Just make sure the repairs and reconstruction consist of great bore work. The place you take your horns to can and must have reamers to get rid of warped bores, undersized and can adjust oversize bores. Also look inside your horns. What you are looking for is no grain or very tight grain. Even a shine to the bore. If you see this look well maybe the horns are worth restoring. If the bores are oversize and warped in my opinion buy something else.
Most golden era clarinets that played well were not usually silver plated! Not sure why. Was it the weight? A step forward, some players even took the plating off the posts on the older R13's. I know this sounds nuts, I'm just sharing actual facts. So if we look at the old Selmer Mark 6 saxophones players never completely restored them. Just buff them. Today these late 1950's and 1960's horns sell for a lot and players won't restore them, if they are smart. So you might not be happy with a gold plated and a restored horn. Then it will be really hard to sell after all of this work. Maybe just do the very least amount of metal and bore work then see how the horns play and tune. Facts, I just don't know. I don't know the conditions of your horns, so be sure the bores are in excellent shape.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-28 19:20
I forgot to mention the wonderful horns being made by Patricola right now. Their top of the line is available in gold plating, sounds and responds wonderfully! I have however only been able to try them in a "show" setting and was not able to spend quality time with them. They are also very reasonably priced.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-28 20:20
Bob wrote:
"Elifix - seems like your mind is made up. Just make sure the repairs and reconstruction consist of great bore work. The place you take your horns to can and must have reamers to get rid of warped bores, undersized and can adjust oversize bores. Also look inside your horns. What you are looking for is no grain or very tight grain. Even a shine to the bore. If you see this look well maybe the horns are worth restoring. If the bores are oversize and warped in my opinion buy something else."
Yeah, checking the bore of the top joint is crucial.
Bob, I wouldn't necessarily agree with reboring the horns. At least from what I know, even techs with that equpiment don't often feel like risking it. You'd then have to take them to a real specialist with the R13, like Guy Chadash, and in addition to that it's rather expensive. Unless the tuning is way off and there's other indicators pointing towards a warped instrument, I wouldn't do it...
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-10-28 20:50
"Just make sure the repairs and reconstruction consist of great bore work."
If the whole reason for restoring them is that he really likes the way they sound and play, maybe messing with the bore isn't an entirely safe thing to do.
"Most golden era clarinets that played well were not usually silver plated! Not sure why."
I don't remember seeing a lot of silver plated R13s back then. I don't know the production numbers, but I don't think they were making as many as they do now, or at least not sending them to the U.S.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2019-10-28 22:06
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Most golden era clarinets that played well were not usually
> silver plated! Not sure why. Was it the weight? A step forward,
> some players even took the plating off the posts on the older
> R13's.
One reason, probably, was that Hans Moennig, who sold a lot of R-13s to major American players in the '50s through the '70s, hated plating and preferred selling unplated horns. I think he felt it made the keys too slippery. Also, it made key adjustments harder because you couldn't just buff out tool marks, as you can on unplated keys. I don't think he was above removing the plating himself.
Karl
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2019-10-29 05:52
@Bob Bernardo
Yes I thought I was more inclined to one side of the fence. However with the various opinions and feedback here, I do think that perhaps I am missing something out.
Like what many has said, maybe messing around with the bore isn't the best idea after all, it's a "one-way" trip once it's done.
I think getting a reamer to shave wood is much easier than "sticking" back wood!
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Author: DougR
Date: 2019-10-29 17:05
I've read the complete thread now, and just have a few random thoughts:
If only it were possible any more to find a shop with several different examples of each brand-new instrument and model, so you could try them out! WWBW, in 1990, sent me 3 brand-new R13s to try, and each was noticeably different from the others, and I got the pick of the litter & sent the rest back.
I know of only one way to do that, and that's to fly to Paris and visit both the Buffet and Selmer factories, and try their stuff out on-premises. (this may seem like an enormous extravagance, but I am getting that the OP is enjoying the "quest" and the "discussion" as much as prospect of just getting a new set of horns in the door. Or, maybe I'm only projecting; were I in that situation, a trip to Paris would be bucket-list stuff, and the older I get the more I believe in doing bucket-list stuff NOW, whatever your age.) (Also, it's PARIS!!! C'mon!!!)
I would add the Selmer Privilege to the mix just because players I know and respect have bought them rather than Buffets.
As to restoration: I've had a gifted tech make major improvements in my clarinets simply by truing-up only the tops of barrel and upper joint bores; that's where the condensation hits first, and that's the most likely area to be a little off. Building up/restoring tone holes would be part of your $7k restoration and would make a major difference too, I would imagine. PS, if I were having a horn 'restored' I would almost certainly have the keys silver-plated, for no other reason than esthetic; I'd want to see some 'shiny' for my money, plus, I love the look. This assumes your repair person has a really good plater available.)
I look forward to reading more comments. This is a fun thread! Thanks all!
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-10-29 22:37
"If only it were possible any more to find a shop with several different examples of each brand-new instrument and model, so you could try them out!"
Howarth might be as close to that as one can come in a single location.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-30 00:41
Well, it's not unusual pay the Buffet factory a visit and choose that one good R13. Wether you need any connections or permit, I don't know.
Dawkes told me they have relatively large stocks of the more popular models - as does Hawkes
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-10-30 01:10
Frederick Weiner, Woodwind Brasswind, Muncy Winds.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-10-30 15:48
Excuse me Paul, as I haven't been able to accertain your location reference, are these shops in the US or the UK? (I'm in France so know neither !) Thanks !
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2019-10-30 21:02
I've done business with Muncy Winds and Woodwind & Brass. Both are really fine places.
As for reboring the WHOLE horns I never said to do this. I'm totally against this. In fact I was careful with using the word Reamers. If reamers are made correctly they are tapered and will HELP get rid of warped areas and where the bore is too tight/small. This surely can make the Golden Era horns play so much better. Doing this can also mean you may have undercutting holes on this vintage clarinet for tuning and stuffy notes to deal with. I'm OK with adjusting tone holes, mainly the upper register usually needs it even when the horns were bought new. These horns still needed work when new. Reamers are a repairman's best friend and I use them on some horns and often on some mouthpieces.
Yes I forgot about Hans Moennig's comments about silver plating, he did say this and I should have remembered. Good call Karl and thank you!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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