 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Rasmussen
Date: 2000-11-04 04:20
I'm holding the cutest little Eb horn in my hand (not really--I'm typing). I've never had one of these to mess with before. I was just visiting my friendly local repair shop to have a Kooiman thumbrest put on my R13, and I remarked to the repair man that they had included two base plates--they must have been trying to sell me an "A" horn. I said I didn't need an A horn, but I wouldn't mind one of those cute little Eb jobs. He said, "I've got one. Here try this. I'm not going to tell you anything about it. See what you think. I don't want much for it." So here I am, wondering what I'm thinking. The mouthpiece is irreparably damaged, and it seems to have adjustment problems, but I can actually play it somwhat with the one Rico #2 reed that came with it. It has a small, pinched tone in the clarion register, though it speaks pretty well in the lower register, and has a couple of bad notes, low G (Bb concert I think) is stuffy--probably insufficient clearance on a lower pad, but I can lip it into tune and play it. I can't criticise its playing too harshly--I've never played one before, and this couldn't be called an optimal test. I'm surprised it plays at all. the serial number is #263198. Czecko-Slovakia is written on the bell beneath all the other information. Does anyone know anything about these? How does it rate? What would a fair price be? It doesn't appear to have been played much.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2000-11-04 14:11
Well, it was made between WWI and 1939 (based on Czecko-Slovakia) There was a V Kohlert and a kohlert and sons and I don't know the relationship. Both made a lot of student quality clarinets for export to the U.S. I have a Kohlert bass clarinet that is nothing special. I would not consider buying the eefer unless 1) you test whether it is high pitch or low pitch (If the former, then it is worth about as many nickels as you can hold in one hand.) and 2) that it is fully restored and you can test it with a good mouthpiece & reeds. It may never play much better than it does now. Sad but true.
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Author: Ken Rasmussen
Date: 2000-11-04 17:44
I forgot to say that it is in a soprano sax case that would eventually need replacing. I've been playing it some more, and it has had moments of good playing in the upper register, followed by moments of no possibility of producing sound at all. Clearly, some pads are loose, and moving around inconsistently. Its sure a cute little thing. My guess is that it was tuned close to the current standard. I was playing along with records, and I could play in tune, at least when it was playing in its better moments. I could also blow it in tune with the tuner, though I had to accomodate somewhat. Does anyone know what sort of mouthpiece might be good to try on this little fellow?
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-11-04 18:22
*All* eefers are "cute little things." MIght as well spring for a good quality one. I agree with Jim Lande about not buying that one unless you can try it with a mouthpiece that's at least *intact* and with pads and so forth in good condition. The fact that it's a *repair shop* trying to sell you a clarinet you can't really try out makes me dubious about this deal. Usually a repair shop will take pride in refurbishing used instruments. (Otherwise, if you're going to buy one in poor condition, what's the advantage of paying more to but it from a music store, instead of a flea market, pawn shop, yard sale, junktiques shop. etc.?) That suggests to me that the repair technician knows this clarinet probably won't sound great, and would rather unload it "as is" on someone who's very optimistic. This dealer is hoping you will blame the problems on the chipped mouthpiece and the loose pads.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2000-11-05 01:55
Although Jim Lande (see above) doesn't seem to think very highly of his Kohlert bass clarinet, I happen to have one (a relatively recent Kohlert Co. model made in Winnenden, Germany, probably in the 60's), and I like it very much. I would rate it a "B-" in tone, an "A" in intonation, an "A-" in response, an "A" in overall comfort, and a "B" in register mechanism reliability and ease of adjustment. Really not bad at all, I'd say. And I've worked with a few Kohlert soprano clarinets from different eras and I thought all of them played well and were nicely made. Some were "V. Kohlert Sons" from Kraslice, Czechoslovakia, some were "V. Kohlert Sons" from Graslitz, Germany (which as I understand is the same town as Kraslice, different owners!), and Kohlert & Co. from Winnenden, Germany. I wouldn't say by any means that they only made student-grade instruments.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2000-11-08 03:48
"Different owners" --- that is one way of describing what happened during WWII. If you dig in the sneezy archives you will find some postings about the wanderings of the Kohlert folks. I didn't mean to imply that they only made student instruments, only that I have seen a flyerfrom the 1930s which clearly (based on price) offered student horns.
The biggest sin of my metal Kohlert bass clarinet was the price I paid for it. It is possible that all new pads would help. Also, there is a lot of evidence that my horn was brutalized and repaired. So, perhaps it was a much better instrument once upon a time.
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Author: stephenld
Date: 2003-12-09 09:50
Ken
I'm trying to find out as much as I can about V Kohlert's Sons for a book I'm writing. It's hero, if you like, is a Bb flat that belonged to my father. It's serial number is 262612, very close to yours, and Kohlert's used to number all their instruments and made all the woodwinds. Further hints to age etc are the way Czecho-Slovakia is hyphenated. It was the name Hitler gave the place after he moved in in September 1938, so it has to have been made between 1938 and 1945, when the ward ended and Czechoslovakia quickly became nationalised and then communised. I've posted a note asking for anyone who has any published information on the Kohlert's. There is an already famous article by the Leins on an Arizona music site. Easy to find by Google. It's called Whatever happened to the Kohlerts?
Is anyone out there who can add to the Kohlert's story. I'd like a chunk of it for my book.
Cheers
Stephen
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-09 13:20
Kohlerts horns show up fairly regularly on eBay and I don't recall seeing any commanding an especially high price. The serial number on mine is difficult to read accurately but 283243 is my best interpretation. Is the country name actually hyphenated? Mine is all one word. Although I consider myself fairly knowledgeable on the subject I don't know any actual details on the hyphenization . I am guessing that "G.I.s" brought back a fair number of these horns that are showing up on eBay and that some are from emigrants who entered Canada.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-09 20:38
V. Kohlert was established in Grasliz, Germany in 1840. Thus, older Kohlert (not "Kohlert and Sons") instruments were marked "Germany." Czechoslovakia was created by the Allies after the World War, and included what had been Germany's Bohemia. This is where Grasliz (Graslitz, Kraslice) is located. At some point, Kohlert instruments began bearing the mark "V. Kohlert and Sons." In late 1938, when Hitler's troops marched in after Neville Chamberlain had assured his country that "peace in our time" was upon us, Bohemia itself was "reclaimed" as part of Germany. A few months later, Germany annexed all Czech land -- Slovakia became "independent," although a German puppet state. From that time until the end of WWII, I believe V. Kohlert and Sons instruments for export were marked "Grasliz (or Graslitz) Germany."
Thus, I'd more likely suspect the instrument in question was made between wars. After WWII, Kohlert as a company moved out (forcibly), leaving the factory and other works behind. Those facilities became Amati.
I do not know of any special usage distinction between Czechoslovakia and Czecho-Slovakia, either on the calendar or otherwise.
Of course, I could be all wet.
Actually, I wouldn't mind having that Eefer at all. Dealing with it could be fun.
Regards,
John
who owns a lot of worthless trash
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Author: Ken Rasmussen
Date: 2003-12-10 02:45
I got a Clark Fobes mouthpiece, the repair shop found a couple of leaks, and fixed 'em, and Dave Spiegelthal shortened the bottom joint a bit, and it plays pretty well now. Thanks everyone for all the history.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-10 17:27
Ken, stephenld and I are having an off-line discussion about the history involved. Maybe someday we'll be in concerted agreement, at which time the information will be put somewhere prominent. If anyone cares.
Glad the little stick is playing for you!
Regards,
John
unofficial history nut
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Author: stephenld
Date: 2003-12-25 23:03
For anyone who wants to be kept up to Speed on Kohlert's Sons, I was sent from Amati in Kraslice some lovely images the other day. One shows a magnificent three-level Georgian-style factory erected in 1922 equipped with all modern facilities, says the caption, such as a "power house, providing motive power for the machinery, electric light and steam heat". There are various certificates assuring the instruments' qualities and images of gold medals, a list of awards, and a portrait of Vinzenz (I have seen his name spelled so many ways and in the caption it is simply Vincent) Kohlert, who looks a bit like Abe Lincoln with short hair, American friends. But the best photo is of the firm's 23-man "saxophone-orchestre". The players clutch their instruments and stare at the camera. One saxophone is an absolute giant, and although the photo is grainy and faxing hasn't helped, it appears to be taller than the player! all the players are employees of V. Kohlert's Sons, some of them "prominent solists (sic)", as the caption says.
As Jackie Gleason used to say, Keep them cards and letters flowing in. I'm still searching for more definitive stuff on Kohlert's history and would love to hear from someone with a list of the serial numbers, just to stand up my theory re the hyphen in Czecho-Slovakia being absolutely crucial in dating instruments some time between 1938 and the end of the war.
Greetings and Happy New Year from the land of the kangaroo, where it is particularly hot at the moment.
Cheers Stephen
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-12-26 02:14
>>>>>I'm still searching for more definitive stuff on Kohlert's history and would love to hear from someone with a list of the serial numbers, just to stand up my theory re the hyphen in Czecho-Slovakia being absolutely crucial in dating instruments some time between 1938 and the end of the war.<<<<<
Czechoslovakia existed as a country twice.
The first period (Czecho-Slovakia) was 1919-1939.
The Second (Czechoslovakia) 1945-1990 (period not relevant to Kohlert)
Kohlert clarinets made during 1939-1945 WERE NOT marked Czecho-Slovakia.
Markings:
Prior 1919 - Made in Bohemia or Bohemia
1919-39 - Graslitz or Kraslice, Czecho-Slovakia, (hyphenated) (Graslitz, Germany around 1928)
1939-45 - Graslitz, Germany
1948-64? - Winnenden, Germany
I've seen Kohlert clarinets marked Kraslice, Made in Czechoslovakia (not hyphenated). I'm not really sure but I think it belonged to 1945-1948 transition period when Kohlert was the Cooperative manufacturer and then was nationalized and became Amati Denak
The clarinet in the pictures was made around 1929-1930
Vytas Krass
Post Edited (2003-12-26 14:06)
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Author: Vrat
Date: 2003-12-26 13:20
I don't know much about Kolhert clarinets (although I used to own Amati Kraslice Bb clarinet; I thought it was of mediocre quality).
However: Jim, it’s Czechoslovakia, not Czecko-Slovakia.
And John, Czechoslovakia was never part of Germany, and was neither reclaimed nor annexed by Germany during WWII.
Bohemia and Slovakia was part or Austria (later Austria-Hungary) 1621-1918, and Bohemia was occupied by Germany 1939-1945.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-12-26 14:14
>>>>>And John, Czechoslovakia was never part of Germany, and was neither reclaimed nor annexed by Germany during WWII.<<<<<<
<<<<<Bohemia was occupied by Germany 1939-1945<<<<<<<
Bohemia is a German name for Czechoslovakia and yes, it was occupied by Germany 1939-1945.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-26 20:42
Some Cechs will tell you that Bohemia still exists and I would tend to agree.
Historically I doubt that Germany ever occupied Bohemia.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-26 21:44
BobD wrote:
> Historically I doubt that Germany ever occupied Bohemia.
Wow! What history are you reading? Study 1939 ...
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-27 08:43
Wow, the misinformation is really flying. As said in my earler post, "I could be all wet." This was primarily because almost all that stuff was taken from my memory. I regret having contributed to the errors by my comments regarding the origin marking on early V. Kohlert instruments. Thanks to Vytas for relating that V. Kohlert Clarinets were originally marked "Bohemia." Of course this relates to Vrat's reminder that Bohemia was for a long time part of the Hapsburg Empire and Austria-Hungary. Obviously I need to brush up on Bohemian history.
Other than that, I must correct myself for forgetting something quite important. In late 1938 Germany did not annex all of Bohemia, but only the borderland which was populated predominantly by German-speaking people: the so-called Sudetenland. Graslitz/Kraslice is in this area, which at that time became administratively a part of Germany.
The balance of Czechoslovakia, including what remained of Bohemia, then was called Czecho-Slovakia. It seems likely that this was the term used for the country by German-speakers even prior to that time. Remember that Graslitz was a German-speaking community, which may be the reason why the Kohlert instruments were so marked.
Czech areas of the country (including Bohemia) became an occupied German "protectorate" in March of 1939. Slovakia was then technically independent (although quite under absent German control) and Czecho-Slovakia -- however orthographed -- ceased to exist.
Czechoslovakia was restored in 1945, and most German-speaking people were promptly and forcibly exiled. At that time, the Kohlerts moved to Wittenden. The dissolution of Czechoslovakia into Slovakia and the Czech Republic occurred on 1 January, 1993.
The previous paragraphs on the history of the area are the best I can put things together from several sources, some on the internet and some from various publications. Many of these sources have unusually broad disagreement on details, some so confusingly that they have been completely ignored. ..
Regarding the orthography of the name, have a bit of fun. Try Google searches on Czecho-Slovakia and Czechoslovakia (both).
Vrat, I never wrote that Czechoslovakia was occupied by Germany during WW II. Only the Czech areas. I have never seen anything to the contrary in any reputable source. Also, Vrat, if you had an older Amati Kraslice Clarinet that was mediocre, it was likely better than many. Some were said to be awful.
The End
Regards,
John
history nut who could use some refreshing on central and eastern Europe
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-27 14:40
I have worked on a number of Kohlert instruments (no bass clarinets or Eb) including my second flute, which I personally imported from Kohlert.
They have all struck me as mechanically and intonationally substandard.
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Author: Vrat
Date: 2003-12-27 21:45
Bohemia is Latin/German/English name for what is now most of Czech Republic, the western part of former Czechoslovakia. It is derived from Latin of 'land of Boi', Boi (spelling?) being a Celtic tribe that lived in that country, I believe, up to 6th or 7th century. The Slavic tribe of Czechs moved there a little later.
Back to clarinets, Amati Kraslice is, I believe, the current name of the original Kolhert's factory. It has been nationalized after 1948, and made awful instruments after that.
Today, I think, Amati Kraslice is again private, and the quality of their clarinets, saxes, ... greatly improved.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-27 22:23
"Amati Kraslice is again private, and the quality of their clarinets, saxes, ... greatly improved."
Greatly improved? From my perspective as a reapirer, definitely not so!
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Author: stephenld
Date: 2003-12-27 22:55
Gee whiz, there are as many histories of the Czech-German boarders as there are bulletin boarders, it seems! Let's not go for specific nouns about the Czech status after 1938. Suffice to say that Hitler controlled it, and in Ian Kershaw's definitive biog out in recent years he makes a good case for saying that the madman himself put in the hyphen because his mind worked like that. He liked everything neat -- he was a vegetarian doglover, after all. He said many times that he wanted to smash that cardboard country Czechoslovakia, made up after the first war. And he did it by stealth, virtually without shots being fired. First he was given Bohemia and Moravia on September 29, 1938, by France, Britain and Italy in an attempt to prevent war. (Poland grabbed a bit of the Czech bit, too.) In march the following year he strolled his troops into the rest of the Czech side and what we now know as the Czech Republic and Slovakia all fell under his "protection" pretty quickly. (there's one of those nouns again!) Kershaw doesn't go into detail about why, but Hitler put in the hyphen, probably for administrative and bureaucratic reasons, and of course, the hyphen has become a total split in the contemporary Czech Republic and Slovakia. (They are very different places.) My father's Eflat clarinet serial number 262612 is marked "V. Kohlert's Sons Graslitz Czecho-Slovakia". I reckon it means made between 29 September 1938 and early 1945. Any more views?
Stephen
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-12-28 01:47
My understanding is that Kohlert started making clarinets in 1870 not 1840. I have a Kohlert Bb, serial #29 and, for its age, is a great horn. Kohlert bassoon manufacturing passed on to Bernd Moosman. Kohlert bassoons, especially the Winnenden models are considered to be superior instruments.
Post Edited (2003-12-28 01:49)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-28 02:08
Mark Pinner wrote:
> My understanding is that Kohlert started making clarinets in
> 1870 not 1840.
There's a bazillion Kohlerts; in The New Langwill Index for woodwinds in Kraslice it shows (with approx business dates):
Kohlert, Anton (1925-1930)
Kohlert, Daniel Jr. (1930-)
Kohlert, Gustav (1921-1930)
Kohlert, Ignaz (1809-1847)
Kohlert, Ignaz (1894-1930)
Kohlert, Josef (1897)
Kohlert, Julius (1895-1925)
Kohlert, Rudolf (1921)
Kohlert, Vincenz Ferarius (1840-1880)
Kohlert's Söhne, Vincenz (1880-1945)
Probable relatives:
Kohlerth, Emanuel (mid 19c)
Kohlerth, Ignatz (1795-1847)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-29 06:17
Stephen, the view that your instrument was made between 1938 and 1945 because it is marked "Czecho-Slovakia" seems to be shared by no one. And if you are basing your belief on one source only, a comment by a biographer as to the origin of the hyphenated spelling of a country's name, I suggest you may be kidding yourself. Of course, I may be just a stubborn old fool, but during several hours of research, I have been unable so far to locate any other reference in support of your position.
Gordon, it's interesting that you have evidently had adverse experiences repairing the newer Amati instruments made by Amati-Denak. Several people who hang around here look on them favorably (including me), but as i recall no one else has mentioned repair problems. Any general tendencies that you'd care to share?
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-29 06:30
Sorry, I cannot produce many details until I have one in my hand again.
However the last one I worked on was a soprano sax #52**.
It LOOKED new, but I have no guarantees of just HOW new it was.
My job sheet notes indicate seriously non-level tone holes, key cups very poorly aligned with tone holes, and the key cup arms far too thick and strong to make corrections to this without removing metal. There was a wide variety of other problems.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-29 13:54
Gordon (NZ),
I would guess the "Kohlert" soprano sax you worked on, with all the problems, was a recent Chinese-made instrument stamped "Kohlert" and has absolutely no connection with the real Kohlerts of the past. I know, I have that exact soprano sax, and it has all the typical workmanship and material problems of most Chinese-made instruments --- however, mine at least plays amazingly in-tune and that's why I have it.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-12-29 15:18
Gordon (NZ) said:
>>>>>>I have worked on a number of Kohlert instruments (no bass clarinets or Eb) including my second flute, which I personally imported from Kohlert.
They have all struck me as mechanically and intonationally substandard.<<<<<<
If I remember correct Kohlert went out of business in the early 60's. I think you’ve ordered/imported Chinese-made instrument stamped "Kohlert" just like the one David S. mentioned.
I've worked on many pre-War II Kohlerts and find them to be excellent in any way.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-12-29 15:53
Ken and the MANY contributors to our Kohlert Quiz! , I also am/will-be very interested in the full story of it's "CZercked" history. I have 2 K's, a good A cl, K & Co. Winnenden, no discernable ser. no.; a V K & Sons, Maker, Graslitz, Bb, more info on bell [original??], Cz-Slo, about 6 Medal imprints, Bb, possible ser. no., an Albert with rings 2+2 and rollers on the LF keys. From the helpful info above I date the A as 1960's and the Bb as 1920's. I plan to copy the several pages of this thread, when finished??, and file it somewhere. I looked in Al Rice's new book, GREAT, but its "end of the Classical Period" [about 1830] is too early for K's horns, tho I'll look in Rendall, Brymer, Lawson, Sachs, Groves etc to see what they may say. Mucho TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-29 16:13
My experience with Kohlert woodwind instruments has been that the best ones are those from the 1950's labelled "Winnenden, Germany" --- these are modern designs which generally are well made and play decently. My current 'stable' of Kohlert-Winnendens includes a hard-rubber bass clarinet, a wood full-Boehm Bb clarinet, a regular Boehm wood Bb clarinet, and a student flute.
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Author: js-fin
Date: 2003-12-29 16:15
I have also hanging around a "V. Kohlert's Sons" Bflat clarinette. I haven't played it (cause I'm a guitarist , only tried it out and it seems to be in good (well... somewhat working) condition. I found it a couple of years ago in an auction and bought it for 5 euros. Sure is worth that The tone is dark, mellow. Quite jazzy, I think - suits me. The pads are in need of a quick replace, because they're hard as rock and leak like mad. The mouthpiece is okay, the ...whattheheckwasitcalled (metal bind that binds the reed to the mouthpiece) looks like brand new.
The instrument is quite dirty and needs cleaning, and therefore it was difficult to see the markings, but after slightly rubbing a while and after that looking with a looking glass I saw the following markings:
V. Kohlert's Sons
Kraslice
Bb
Made in Czechoslovakia
306436
Based on what I've read and heard it would be of those 'just-after-the-war'-instruments, but the real question is,
whether it's worth repadding, respringing and filling a small ding near the thumbrest or should i just leave it doing hanging around some more.
I can't post any pics because I haven't got a digital camera nor a scanner, but the airholes are clean, seem to be quite okay, and the mechanism mostly works. It doesn't have any worse marks of wear and tear, except of being extremely dirty - coated with something sticky origin of which I wouldn't care to know - and the small ding on the backside.
I'm going to see a instrument repairman tomorrow, but would still appreciate your opinions and comments while pondering with the question - is it worth it?
-JS
And yeah, I'm willing to learn to play it. Just in case you wondered
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-12-29 16:44
Don,
You're correct! Medal imprints appeared ONLY on the Bohemian models (until 1919) and on the early Czecho-Slovakia'n period 1919-1920's models.
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Author: stephenld
Date: 2003-12-29 19:01
I'm prepared to accept from Vytas that Kohlert's put the hyphenated form of Czecho-Slovakia between 1919 and the war (if he can stand it up with serial numbers etc of course). But presuming it's true, why? the country was known as Czechoslovakia until Hitler hyphenated it in October 1938. Were the Kohlerts prescient? Were they among the very well-organised Sudeten ethnic Germans (who had lived in Bohemia a very long time) who thought of themselves as very different from the Slovaks to the east? Why, why why would they hyphenate, which would have been utterly innovative and run contrary to their country's official name? Can you throw any historical light on this Vytas? I've also mentioned privately to John that several sources give October 1938 for the hyphenation, as significant ones, for instance, as AJP TAylor' Origins of the Second World War and the very recent Ian Kershaw two-volume biography of Hitler. But I could provide a string of others if needed.
It seems that enough Kohlert instruments of quality were around for long enough, though, that copying took place. I'd love to know more about this. Whether only the Chinese copied or other firms sprang up to adopt the Kohlert name.
Cheers
Stephen
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-12-29 19:10
As far as i know there is no music store in NZ that has imported Amati or Kohlert instruments in the last 10 years, so the instruments Gordon sees across his bench are unlikely to be of the "newer" variety. Certainly none of them would have been from the reccent crop of clarinets as nobody i've met here has even heard of them let alone played them.
donald
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-29 19:19
The current Chinese-made "Kohlert" saxes are not in any way copies of the older Kohlerts -- in fact they are, like just about every other recent Chinese-made sax of any brand that I've seen, copies (at least externally) of Selmer Super Action 80 horns.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-29 20:04
Stephen enquires: "Were they [Kohlerts] among the very well-organised Sudeten ethnic Germans (who had lived in Bohemia a very long time) who thought of themselves as very different from the Slovaks to the east?"
That would not surprise me at all. Not only non-Slovak, but non-Czech, as well. However, I am not at all sure whether they thought of themselves as "real" Germans or Austrians. But do note that at the end of WW II, they were forcibly driven out of Czechoslovakia (not at all a good situation), so obviously neither did the Czechoslovak nationals think of the Kohlerts as ethnically suitable for that country. .
Different spellings of national names by various ethnic groups within a country is nothing unique. Switzerland (Helvetia, Suisse, Schweiz, etc.) comes to mind as an outstanding example, but it's hardly the only one.
Perhaps Hitler did demand and cause to be implemented the official hyphenation of Czecho-Slovakia within that country as soon as the Germans took over; but from what I see, it appears that the hyphenated version was not uncommon before that time.
The disparity of historical views on the BB is not at all amazing. Many available references both on the internet and off seem to be historiographic disasters, with a lot of disparate "information" seen here and there.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-29 20:14
In reply to Donald:
I see quite a few instruments that are were not bought in New Zealand.
1. Immigrants bring instruments with them.
2. Immigrants purchase through contacts overseas.
3. People buy instruments while overseas.
4. Some people are buying from overseas via the internet.
Also, various importers and outlets regularly bring in small shipments of 'new' makes to try.
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Author: stephenld
Date: 2003-12-29 22:00
John's assertion of different spellings even before the Hitler hyphenation sounds entirely reasonable to me. So the key to all this is a list of dated Kohlert's Sons serial numbers, so that I can date my father's clarinet. Anyone still on the case? There must be someone somewhere in this big wide licorice-stick-blowing world who has a list of Kohlert serial numbers! They were struck into the instruments with such fine care.
Regards all
Stephen
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-29 22:09
That hitler might have hyphenated the name is reasonable as it would have emphasized his intent to split the country apart. The geo-political changes that were agreed upon by the victors following WWI aggravated him to no end and he vowed to "get even". Stephen, do you have documentation regarding the places your father visited during WWII? There may be a clue there.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-12-30 16:16
In 1939 Hitler reclaimed Bohemia (Czech lands) and Czecho-Slovakia was absorbed into Germany. During 1939-1945 Czecho-Slovakia was 'kaput' as a country.
Your theory "re the hyphen in Czecho-Slovakia being absolutely crucial in dating instruments some time between 1938 and the end of the war" is simply incorrect.
****Can you throw any historical light on this Vytas? I've also mentioned privately to John that several sources give October 1938 for the hyphenation, as significant ones, for instance, as AJP TAylor' Origins of the Second World War and the very recent Ian Kershaw two-volume biography of Hitler. But I could provide a string of others if needed.****
All these sources are wrong! I'm not historian, but I know clarinets very well. Clarinet keywork went through a number of changes that can be used TO DATE the instruments. A clarinet keywork tells me a lot more than I can get from history books (at least in this case)
There are some very knowledgeable people on this board like Ken Show, Douglas, David Spiegelthal, Jack Kissinger, Pat Parkin and many others. They can easily burst a bubble in your theory simply just by looking at the particular sample/clarinet. No serial numbers or history knowledge is needed.
Here's the challenge for everyone! Can you tell:
How old is this clarinet? When was it made?
Prior 1919
1919-39
1939-45
1948-64
Markings on the clarinet:
V. Kohlert Sons
Makers
Graslitz
Czecho-Slovakia
Medal (imprints)
Keywork:
The single post design for the left-hand E/B and F#/C# keys.
No adjusting screw on the throat G# key.
The thumb rest screws are on two "ears" above and below the thumb rest, and the screw ears are mortised into the wood.
More clues:
2368907983
Stephen, I've provided information, which I KNOW, is correct. Take it or leave it. I'm done here.
Vytas Krass
Post Edited (2003-12-31 04:02)
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2003-12-30 16:35
As mentioned above, I strongly suggest doing a Google search on "Whatever Happened to the Kohlerts" and reading the article. The Leins have done extensive on-site research of the history of Kohlert instrument manufacturing and have put it into an easily readable article. It is my understanding that Paul Lein was/is particularly interested in their bassoons (at one point among the best available).
After reading the article, I contacted Paul Lein directly in an attempt to learn more about my Bb Kohlert clarinet (V. Kohlert Sons, Graslitz, Czecho-Slovakia, #255062). He graciously responded, but was unable to provide much information. He indicated that the serial number records from pre-war Kohlert production had been destroyed during the war (they numbered all instruments in order of production regardless of the type if instrument).
If anyone is able to document anything to the contrary and/or something of help in further identifying Kohlert instruments, please let us know.
Barttt
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2003-12-30 16:50
Vytas must have posted his latest response while I was composing my own, above.
The bell markings on my Kohlert are EXACTLY as he describes.
On the keywork, mine has the single post design, it does have an adjusting screw on the throat G# key, and the thumb rest has both screws above and the rest is not set into the wood.
If what he has posted as "Other Clues" is a serial number, mine has four fewer digits in the serial number.
Confusing, no?
Bart
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-30 22:57
Bart: Just a small comment: Consider that if the thumb rest was turned upside down the screws would be below. The point being that the position of the screws today isn't relevant since you don't know what they were out of the factory.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-02 01:20
Come on BobD! It's NOT a reversed thumb-rest. Please, read the description one more time.
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Author: BlouHond
Date: 2008-02-12 09:41
Hi,
I'm helping a music non-profit organisation in South Africa set up a database of all their instrument library instruments. Here are the details of a Bb clarinet we have here (Pretoria, South Africa)
serial #: 290933
inscription:
````````
V Kohlert's
Sons
Kraslice
Bb
made in
czechoslovakia
then there is a gold medal thing saying:
Selmer
gold
seal
London
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Author: merlin
Date: 2010-02-10 20:44
hi forum,
I'm sorry I've not been here much, I've been spending far too much time at GTC...
I have a Bb Kohlert (that is a fantastic instrument) and on the bell it says;
V.KOHLERT SONS
MAKERS
GRASLITZ
BOHEMIA
medals...
Bb
222940
not sure that this fits into any of the above theories. Anyone any ideas?
Merlin
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Author: LizaClar
Date: 2019-01-10 22:29
I just acquired a Bb Clarinet that says:
V. KOHLERT'S SONS
MAKERS
GRASLITZ
CZECHO-SLOVAKIA
metals (which say CHICAGO, PARIS, LONDON)
Bb
5575
Any thoughts?
It plays, needs pads and oil, but good tone. It will be my first try at refurbishing.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-01-12 20:17
So I have a fairly interesting Eefer too, made by Kohlert Winnenden, in Boehm System, presumably for a=440hz. The barrel was shortened by a whole cm (!) and I wonder whether I'll regret spending as much as i did, but I'll know more after an overhaul and practising on that instrument (and asking people who are a little more proficient with eefes)
If serial numbers at the time of the bankruptcy stood at 85.000, How come mine is 104114?
Anways, the keywork quality is actually pretty good and it's way less bendy than on other older instruments. I'll post pictures once it's done.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-02-01 20:24
Have enjoyed reading (and copying, and formatting) all the contributions to this thread. I just bought a "Bohemia" Bb clarinet, serial # 241842.
Excited!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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