 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2017-12-10 04:05
I'm looking to treat myself to a new MP for Christmas.
I currently have a Van Doren M13 Lyre Series 13 which I really enjoy.
I'm looking to get a VanDoren
M30 Series 13... question , should I go with a Lyre version or a non Lyre version? Any opinions would be most welcome!
I mainly play in a local Community band
Ben Shaffer
GSO,NC
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-12-10 04:30
Personally I don't really like either. But the M30 Lyre has a slightly smaller tip opening according to Vandoren's website. You will have to try it for yourself to see which one is better.
Be careful of buying a series 13 M30. I have one now, and for me it plays too flat. You know how most clarinets are sharp on the throat tones? Well for me, the throat tones are actually not that bad, but the open G and the left thumb F are extremely flat for me. Everything below that is slightly flat as well. Teacher is making me try some M30s that are not series 13, even though I tune to 440 hz most of the time.
That's my experience with a 66 mm barrel and R13, may not be the same for you. But just a heads up.
Best of luck on finding your Christmas mouthpiece! You should also try some mouthpieces other than the ones by Vandoren though!
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-10 06:55
The best way is to go to a musical store where they have a portfolio with Vandoren mouthpieces and allow you to take 5 of them home to try them for a week. That's the way I discovered the M30 but your need might be different than mine.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-10 06:59
Ray Zhang, the throat tones can vary a lot between clarinets. On the ideal instrument, they are a bit sharp for the regular Vandoren mouthpiece at A=442 (can be lipped down) and in tune for the 13-series at A=440.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2017-12-10 19:23
I've used an M30 for about 15 years. When I bought my new clarinet, the throat tones were too flat even with a 64mm barrel. What worked was having the end of the mouthpiece and the ledge cut down 2mm.
Burt Marks
Ridenour Libertas
Accubore Eddie Daniels 64mm (Ridenour 64mm also works)
Vandoren M30
Luyben lig.
Legere Signature 3.25
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-10 21:44
Ben Shaffer wrote:
> I'm looking to treat myself to a new MP for Christmas.
> I currently have a Van Doren M13 Lyre Series 13 which I really
> enjoy.
> I'm looking to get a VanDoren
> M30 Series 13
If you really enjoy the M13Lyre, why do you want a new mouthpiece or consider getting a new one to be a "treat?" One might argue, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
... question , should I go with a Lyre version or
> a non Lyre version?
No one can make this decision but you. They have different facings. You will probably (but maybe not) prefer one over the other, but there's no reason why your preference should necessarily match others. If everyone preferred one and no one bought the other, Vandoren wouldn't make both.
I realize that not every clarinet student has access to a credit card to use online, but the best way to try mouthpieces other than finding a store that stocks them is to buy the ones you want to try from a reputable online vendor and simply keep the one you like best and return the other(s). Look for a vendor that doesn't charge a restocking fee if you buy at least one of the items you order. It may be a slightly cumbersome process, but in areas with no local stores or where the local stores don't stock the equipment you want to try, it's a decent second-best alternative. Be careful in handling anything ordered this way (e.g. use a rubber patch on the beak) because any damage will make the item unreturnable.
Karl
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-12-11 18:58
The M13 Lyre is one of the best of the Vandoren line, certainly much better than their much more open offerings (M30/M30Lyre being examples of that).
If you're looking to treat yourself to a new mouthpiece, why not treat yourself to an upgrade rather than simply an alternative facing style but otherwise the same to what you already have?
If you aren't able to treat yourself to the realm of handmade mouthpieces (understandable, they're typically at least twice the cost of a Vandoren), why not try some new ligatures or barrels?
For the same money as a new Vandoren mouthpiece, there are plenty of ligatures out there as well as reeds (you could get 4 European cut Legeres for example).
Yet another option is that if you have any other mouthpieces, backup Vandorens for example, you could treat yourself to a refacing from one of the many options out there for a personalized facing.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-12-12 01:05
If you're going to upgrade, then do just that - upgrade. Vandoren to Vandoren seems like a lateral move and not much of a promotion. I'd considered something more boutique. Bob Bernando has a terrific Selmer he loves and recommends. Graber, Behn (my favorite), Ridenour and Fobes all have excellent offerings. Most of their offerings are hand finished. Vandoren is kinda like Buffet, you have to try 10 to find a great one, what a pain. Just saying. But you'll always have to audition several to find the right one for you.
If you're going to upgrade, why not get something special? If the mouthpiece swap is important to you, then pull out the credit card and start auditioning different models.
I agree a ligature upgrade might get you where you want to go, for now maybe, for less money.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-16 21:43
ClarinetRobt wrote:
> Vandoren is kinda like Buffet, you have to try 10 to
> find a great one, what a pain.
Not my experience. There is much less variation in mouthpieces than clarinets. A full clarinet is so much more exposed to the variation of manual work, with reaming, undercutting and pad assembly.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-16 22:41
I don't get it. The M series play flat. Take your tuner with you when you test them. Take note that they tune flat, mainly in the upper registers. If you like the Vandoren mouthpieces that much try the BD5's. They are 1/32" shorter along with pretty much any other mouthpiece on the market, but up close the BD5 sound is brighter. The higher you go up on the notes on the clarinet the M series mouthpieces play flatter.
By the way 1/32" is a lot. For example, this is the difference between buying new tires. So how much is a 32nd of an inch? Take a nickel coin, (USA) and look where the head of the president starts. The distance from the tip of the nickel to the top of the presidents head is about how much longer the M series mouthpieces are. 1/32". So you don't need any fancy measuring tools. You can now visualize the distance compared to other mouthpieces. To correct this problem you need a shorter barrel and a dang good repairman to fix the upper register. This includes moving the octave key down on R13ths, because they tune to 440 too. They should tune to 441 as they did in the 1960's with a 67mm barrel.
We all have to learn that these are NOT good mouthpieces even if your teachers say they are. Your teachers are just wrong. Just like the same teachers that say to play on Rico reeds when you first start playing. They just don't know any better. The Rico reeds are full of pesticides.
The same teachers tell you to play on Vandoren reeds. Why? The reeds are getting worse. In the 1970's Vandoren got all of their cane in France. Now the cane comes from all sorts of countries. They even bought cane from Rico! The head man Marc Charpenter of Vandoren, that reed master for 40 years, left and went to Steuer reeds because Steuer only uses the finest French cane. But people still use Vandoren reeds even though they might only get 2 reeds per box to play.
Part of being a great player is looking outside of the box. Part of getting a great sound is not doing what others tell you to do. So if you want a Vandoren reed like the ones from 25 years ago, try the Steuers. If you want that Chedeville sound try the new Selmer's, but have me adjust them. If I have time I will.
Then try the new Selmers. For $100 these are the best mouthpieces on the market. A shade stuffy and perhaps resistant, but this can be fixed. In 50 years from now people will be paying $700 to $1500 for these new Selmers.
Bring your tuners folks. Don't buy these mouthpieces that tune to 440 and then drop to 438 or worse. Your embouchures will suffer, you will bite and your sound will suffer, your lips will bleed and the groups you are playing in will also suffer, because you are playing flat and they are playing sharper in the upper registers.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-12-16 23:04
Many people play the M series without intonation problems. Here are three fine examples:
Dan Gilbert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA5y1u900yQ
Burt Hara
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMxi5jvgQI
Greg Raden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhPLI4jhUsE
For sure there are M series mouthpieces that play flat, but it is possible to find some that do not.
Many fine clarinetists also play D'addario reeds:
http://www.woodwinds.daddario.com/woodwindsArtists.Page?ActiveID=3516&tid=3459,5608,5609,5610,5611,5612
Make your own decisions.
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2017-12-16 23:50
Hmmm....let's see now....
"The same teachers tell you to play on Vandoren reeds. Why? The reeds are getting worse. In the 1970's Vandoren got all of their cane in France. Now the cane comes from all sorts of countries. They even bought cane from Rico! The head man Marc Charpenter of Vandoren, that reed master for 40 years, left and went to Steuer reeds because Steuer only uses the finest French cane. But people still use Vandoren reeds even though they might only get 2 reeds per box to play."
Well, if my chronology is correct (and I happen to know that it is), that means that Mr. Charpentier was at Vandoren back when it was said/documented/alleged that you could get one good reed out of every box, right?
So, apparently, they must be a lot better now as their good reed output has now doubled! 👍🏻
Bottom line? Don't pay all that much attention to all the noise here - try for yourself and play/perform on what makes you happy and comfortable.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-17 00:25
Still waiting for Mr. Bernardo's measurements of the bores he said were much bigger on the M-series than the BD5. I presented actual measurements. He did not.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-17 00:45
First I'm talking about the length. The bore is also bigger. The M series is .545" to .585"
The BD5 is .525" to .585" a much greater taper. I wrote this in past posts.
The biggest differences are the depth of the baffle/chamber areas. The BD5 is much shallower. Thus the M series tends to sound more mellow up close, but in a large hall the BD5 sounds better. Your ears can play tricks on you. This is actually very close to the German chamber/baffles which we all know have a warm sound.
If you want, you can play any setup you want to. You just have to make a lot of changes. You can play M13's with different barrels and a different bell. You can have your instrument tuned to any mouthpiece. You can take just a barrel and build an entire clarinet from that. Or take an A clarinet and make a basset horn. But why?
Why would a person take a mouthpiece that plays flat above 440 and make a whole new clarient system? Nothing against Burt, he is a fine player. I'm not sure if this is true, I haven't met Burt. But the LA Philharmonic tunes to 442. This is a fact. I just talked with Boris who is the principal player there. He is using the BD5 and the one that tunes to 442.
So we all have different opinions. I guess if you like a Bundy clarinet you can find a mouthpiece for it and have a repairman tune it up for you. Same with the R13's that tune to 440 now, or you can spend $10,000 for a horn. It's all about money.
I'm here just to help people save money and enjoy clarinet playing. You can go buy on ebay a Chedeville or Kaspar mouthpiece for $1000, buy a $10,000 clarinet, a $1300 ligature, it's all up to you.
The person that posted asked for an opinion so I gave it my best, with scientific information, measurements to back it up, plus tuning information to look for. Now he's on his own. I've done my very best to help him. I have nothing against Vandoren. A lot of their mouthpieces are very good. The BD5 of course, B45, 5RV's, the B40's. I just don't like the M series for a very good reason.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-17 01:54)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-17 01:51
lmliberson - Yes I may not be perfect and don't know everything. But be open minded enough to try a few samples. Last week I sent out $700 worth of sample reeds. They beat out plastic reeds or I would be playing on plastic. Heck Sabine Meyer plays on them, I guess they must be OK! Send me an email with your address and let me know how you like them. They are free! A great holiday gift from me.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2017-12-17 02:43
Uhh, Bob - With all due respect, I haven't a clue why you just wrote what you did above. I made absolutely no reference to Steuer reeds in my comments. I was simply looking at the supposed timeline in regards to the "reed master" and commented in my usual semi-sarcastic manner. No more, no less.
Sometimes having a little sense of humor helps....
However, FYI, once upon a time (long ago) I happily used Steuer reeds (not this current incarnation of the brand). They were good enough to use. And (also FYI) I have tried your current version - and more than just a mere sample, btw. And, no, I'm not going to comment on my assessment of them. Or if I have continued to use them. Or anything else that I play on/with. What I use is only important and/or meaningful to me. I'll never quite understand why there are those on this BB that feel compelled to relate a laundry list of their equipment each and every time that they post. Is that supposed to prove something? Well, I suppose it does - but I wouldn't dare to say what!
But I'll refrain from further sarcasm. I really wouldn't want to offend anyone else here.
Well...not yet, anyway....
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-17 03:57
lmliberson wrote:
> I'll
> never quite understand why there are those on this BB that feel
> compelled to relate a laundry list of their equipment each and
> every time that they post. Is that supposed to prove something?
> Well, I suppose it does - but I wouldn't dare to say what!
>
Someone back a couple of years ago (or maybe longer - time flies as I get older) suggested it would somehow be informative to know what people who post use and that including the list as a footer to posts would be useful.
Not all of us have adopted the practice.
Karl
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2017-12-17 05:09
Ok, fair enough, Karl...thank you.
But informative? Really? How so? What are we to discern from that information? What does it really tell us?
Are we to equate the level or quality of one's equipment with the quality of one's knowledge? Or abilities?
Just wondering....
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-12-17 09:12
We all have our own opinions about reeds, mouthpieces, clarinets, etc. There is no correct answer.
But that doesn't mean we cannot give our own opinions on a particular product or brand. It's always nice to know what others think, although in the end your thoughts are more important.
Readers just need to realize that all comments are based off of one's personal opinions. I don't like the M30s, but Boris of the LA Phil used the M30 before he switched to the BD5. It doesn't mean that there is something wrong with me: it's just that it doesn't fit either...
1. my embouchure
2. my clarinet
3. my reeds
4. my playing style
etc. etc.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2017-12-17 10:57
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2017-12-17 11:03)
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2017-12-17 17:58
Original Poster here.
To be perfectly in tune is kind of pointless for me .
I play in a community band with 13 clarinets.
We use all makes and models of Clarinets, Mouthpieces and reeds.
The Conductor will do a spot check on EVERYONE before we start playing and guess what , at least on the tuning note we are all close to being spot on.
I'm listening very carefully when we are playing and the Band sounds good.
It would be interesting to be able to check all the Clarinets throughout the whole range of notes
Although not a Pro myself I realise what is important is being RELATIVELY in tune . For a Band to be perfectly in tune is not possible
I guess it just boils down to how many cents flat or sharp is noted by each listener
Pitch is in the ear of the beholder, or listener
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-17 19:25
Ben Shaffer wrote:
> The Conductor will do a spot check on EVERYONE before we start
> playing and guess what , at least on the tuning note we are all
> close to being spot on.
Some band directors use different notes to tune each section. I know of one who insists open G(4) is the best note to tune the clarinets. It's axiomatic that tuning one note at a rehearsal means...you'll all be in tune on one note for a few minutes.
> I'm listening very carefully when we are playing and the Band
> sounds good.
In a good band or orchestra, of course, everyone needs to listen.
> It would be interesting to be able to check all the Clarinets
> throughout the whole range of notes
I don't think so - the player has to learn to adjust to tuning anomalies on his or her clarinet so the result comes out in tune with others. The differences from one clarinet to another really don't matter if the player is able to produce an in tune result. If an in tune result is difficult or impossible to produce with a given system, something about the equipment needs to be changed or adjusted.
> I guess it just boils down to how many cents flat or sharp is
> noted by each listener
I think what the players hear is more important than what the listener notes. The players need to hear differences and adjust to the surrounding musical context.
> Pitch is in the ear of the beholder, or listener
No, pitch is a matter of mathematics. How a player deals with pitch and tuning depends on his sensitivity to it and the flexibility of his technique to adjust it. The listener may judge the result but the performer is responsible for it.
> I'm looking to treat myself to a new MP for Christmas.
> I currently have a Van Doren M13 Lyre Series 13 which I really
> enjoy.
> I'm looking to get a VanDoren
> M30 Series 13... question , should I go with a Lyre version or
> a non Lyre version?
Now, back to your original post. Put aside the question of why you're considering a change if you're happy with the M13L you're already playing. It's your money. Should you "go with" an M30 or an M30 Lyre?
It's a little like asking if you should choose vanilla icing or white chocolate for your birthday cake. Most of the discussion has been about whether you should choose some other flavor entirely.
Between the two mouthpieces, you're really asking whether you should choose one with a (nominal) tip opening of 1.135 mm (M30 Lyre) or 1.15 mm (M30). The curve lengths are supposedly the same as presumably are the inside dimensions.
Is there an objective answer? IMO, no.
Is there a preponderance of opinion here one way or the other? I don't think it has even been addressed. The discussion has focused on whether or not you should use Vandoren at all.
To stick to your question, as I remember, Everett Matson (at one time a sort of Yoda figure in the American world of clarinet mouthpieces) said that any difference less than 0.04 mm between tip openings was meaningless - the player would adjust to a smaller difference with embouchure and reed choice. The difference from one mouthpiece to another was caused more by other dimensions inside the mouthpiece - baffle, chamber, throat, bore, rail thickness, etc.. The difference between M30 and M30L, if Vandoren's chart is to be taken as true, is 0.015 mm - far less than Matson's threshold.
Even Bob Bernardo, whose anti-Vandoren bias is clear, finally wrote (with, I think, at least a little exasperation in his tone) "If you want, you can play any setup you want to. You just have to make a lot of changes [to play in tune]."
If you change mouthpieces from the one you already have and like, you're the one who will have to play it. The only reasonable way to make this kind of choice is to get your hands on one or two of each and try them.
Karl
Post Edited (2017-12-17 19:32)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-18 01:29
Attachment: bores.png (25k)
Bob Bernardo wrote: "The bore is also bigger. The M series is .545" to .585"
The BD5 is .525" to .585" a much greater taper."
I'd like to see those measurements. Here are a few of mine and the BD5 has a bigger bore than three different M30 mouthpieces I compared with.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-18 04:36
Buy measuring tools, or make them as I did! I didn't come up these these out of the sky! I have the mouthpieces sitting on my desk!
If you email me I'll send you pics! Or do pics lie too?
People can be in disagreement. That's fine. But some people just want to argue. The chart is pretty much useless. If you want to see the actual proof send me your email address and I'll send you the true measurement facts. But you may say something like well that's just one mouthpiece. Actually it is not. I have well over 200 mouthpieces in my collection. Vandoren mouthpieces happen to be the most inconsistent. Or maybe Rico is. It's hard to say, because they use stinky rubber that can shrink up to 30 percent. Thus the reason why it is so hard to find decent mouthpieces.
It's getting to the point when a few selected people don't want to learn to become better players. I hope I'm wrong...
It is good to question facts. I surely will answer and back up my statements to you Johan. I've been doing this since 1984 so I'm happy to teach people something.
So Johan if you want concrete proof write to me. I'll be happy to take pics for you. You probably still won't believe these facts though, but they are available to you.
By the way, I also have the tools to make the bores that are too small correct in size. These are called tapered reamers. I'll take a pic of one for you too. So I can actually make any mouthpiece bore perfect. Even it the bore is too large I can heat up the rubber and shrink it. Who can do that? To my knowledge, only me.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-18 04:38)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2017-12-18 05:26
Hi Larry! Haven't heard from you in quite some time ...
Mark C.
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2017-12-18 18:23
Original Poster here....
bought a used Van Doren M30 off eBay
Post Edited (2017-12-18 20:10)
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2017-12-18 19:09
Hi Mark...long time...
What can I say, I try to keep a low profile in order to stay out of the crossfire and noise here. Or - putting it another way - practice more, post less? 😉
But I just couldn't resist this time....my bad? 😱
Hope all is well!
L
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-12-19 00:06
D’addario Mouthpieces are milled from rod rubber. Therefore, I don’t see how it shrinking by any particular amount during cooling could have the negative effect you’re referring to. This would apply only to Vandoren.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-12-21 01:34
While I agree that there is potential with the new Selmers, I have to disagree with Bob on most all of his other points.
First, the curve of the new Selmers is beyond excessively long (46 or 23mm). Simply shortening the facing to get into the realm of what is commonly considered long (M30 for example at 40/20mm) improves the way these pieces play significantly. I'm not aware of any other Bb mouthpieces in the US that have 23mm length facings, certainly is pretty far outside the realm of normal unless you're making German mouthpieces.
Second, the quality control and finishing of the rail widths is horrid. Aside from the negative effects on how it sounds/feels (slowing response, dulling the sound, stuffiness), it's aesthetically objectionable.
Thirdly, even if you've found a magical spot in the chamber that compensates for these deficiencies (which I find to be doubtful), you'd still be left with a pretty ugly looking mouthpiece. I'm going to assume cleaning up/reshaping the rails would be a part of what you do with these new selmers.
D'addario mouthpieces are certainly 1) more finished out of the box and 2) better facings than Selmer. D'addario's definitely play better after some hand finishing of the rail widths and shape, but are a lot closer than Selmer.
These things are even more readily apparent if you look at their Bass mouthpieces.
As somewhat of a sidenote- I haven't heard of anyone else getting ill from D'addario reeds (or any other reed for that matter). Not to say it's impossible that Bob could get sick from reeds, but it does seem surprising that it isn't more common place given how popular their reeds are.
Vandoren's inconsistency in their mouthpieces over the years is pretty much a waste of time to even type, even my M13Lyre from 2003 looks MILES AHEAD of what's available today. So Bob, I'm with you on that one.
What I wish could be explained is why Selmer does such a wonderful job with their instruments, which are becoming more and more popular, but don't provide the same amount of thought and effort into their mouthpieces. The potential is there to be decent players, but you'd be better off buying a vintage oval or table stamp and having it refaced.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-12-21 02:25
NBeaty wrote:
> First, the curve of the new Selmers is beyond excessively long
> (46 or 23mm).
Did you measure this, or are you going by Selmer's description? I saw this measurement, too, when I looked at theses mouthpieces on the site of my usual vendor. I wondered about it. But the only point of comparison I have is the more or less standard measurement with a .0015" feeler. That point is normally somewhere between 16 mm and 19 mm, though I've played on outliers at 15 mm or 20 mm. If they're using some more precise measuring technique, could it be that even a normal curve (e.g. 18 mm with a .0015" feeler) really does continue to somewhere close to 23 mm?
Karl
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2017-12-21 03:55
The handful that I’ve measured and refaced all measured around the 46 mark with the .0015 feeler. By far longer than anything commonly available in the French/American (non-German) tradition. 15mm is much more common than you may think, not at all abnormal on zinners.
For reference, Clark Fobes CF bass mouthpiece has a length of 46 (23mm).
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-12-22 22:43
I think Bob Bernardo is correct on pitch issues on the 13 series ... they play proportionally more flat in the upper register, depending to some extent on the barrel length and taper. That's been my experience as well ...
I've used an M30-lyre/non-13 and it plays quite well and is very articulate. Need to pull a little with a 66mm reverse taper barrel, but tuning is okay.
You might think about a M15, which is available in 13 and non-13 tuning. It's a medium close tip with a long lay.
I've actually found the Vandornen MPs to be pretty consistent ... but's it true, to find a really good one, typically 1 out of 10 ... and usually 1 out of 10 will be a dog. The remaining others are OK. I always give each a visual before buying/trying ... looking for even rails, especially the tip rail.
Tom
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-12-22 22:58
Was always having to pinch a bit in the altissimo and some of the notes below open G were really flat for me. Teacher told me to switch to a regular M30 that wasn't 13 series, and after trying 8 of them, I chose one. It has helped me fixed my tuning issues for the most part. Although I still don't really like the M30 that much. There are so many options out there to explore.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-23 00:41
Bob Bernardo,
The measurements I attached were taken with Mitutoyo Borematic tools, which is top of the industry. There is no need for home-made tools to measure inner diameter.
You have presented claims about bore Vandoren mouthpiece dimensions that I easily can falsify at any time.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-23 00:49
TomS, regarding "13 series ... they play proportionally more flat in the upper register":
Sounds very odd since a bigger mouthpiece bore widens the twelfths for the left hand tones. And for the longer right-hand tones the impact of a change in the mouthpiece bore is relatively smaller. The biggest impact is in the throat tones, G4 to Bb4.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-23 01:22
Johan H Nilsson - I have a set of Mitutoyo Borematic tools. Mine are much more accurate. If you happen to be going to the NAMM convention let's get together and share some knowledge. It would be fun to meet you!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-23 01:32)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-23 02:17
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Johan H Nilsson - I have a set of Mitutoyo Borematic tools.
> Mine are much more accurate. If you happen to be going to the
> NAMM convention let's get together and share some knowledge. It
> would be fun to meet you!
Your Mitutoyo Borematics are "much more accurate"... Than what?
There is a reason you have to keep your measurements "private".
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-23 08:45
Don't get it? They aren't private, I already gave them out! I guess the conversation is sadly over. I would have liked to meet you.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-24 02:08
I can only talk to rational people anyway.
Even a finger can be used to separate a mouthpiece bore difference of 0.1 mm. Just insert your finger of choice and see how deep it goes.
The Mitutoyo Borematic tools can be seen on the desk in the lab at Backun.
https://youtu.be/lwIA8fXFYWE?t=22m2s
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-24 04:08
What measurements do you want? I'm an open book. Stop with the name calling please and simply send an email. I'll give you the measurements of whatever and anything you want. I cannot do anymore than this. If I've upset you I am TRULY sorry. My offer still applies. I'll send you any and ALL measurements you want; in some cases 3 times thinner than a human hair. This is all I can do! Please accept my apologies if I've said something wrong. I'm here only to help people become better players and help them choose gear wisely. If I can offer scientific measurements than I will. Heck I went to Caltech.
I looked at the video you posted. Thanks! I already have all of these tools and much more. Some were made at Caltech. I did find this video clip very interesting though! Enjoy the holidays! Let's start the New Year on a good foot. I am offering you the measurements you may want, with pics! I really feel badly if I offended you.
Cheers!
Bob
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-24 04:28
I have falsified your factual claims about the bore dimension by posting four actual measurements of M30 and BD5 mouthpieces.
If you don't want to defend your claims it is up to you. Everyone visiting this thread will see that I provided actual measurements while you did not.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-24 19:29
I wrote something and decided to edit out Jahan.
If anyone wishes to see any measurements please contact me. I've already heard from maybe 25 plus people, so I've decided to delete anything related to entertaining Jahan and edit this post in a positive productive move. For those that responded to my emails, thank you and hope the information was useful. As always I will continue to assist people as much as I can. Some of you even commented about the Kaspar bores and the old Chedeville bores. Yes some of them were smaller and larger. Yes Babbitt made some of the Ann Arbor Kaspar's, but not all of them. Great questions. To answer a few more questions the Selmer Concept mouthpiece I feel is pretty close to being a very good mouthpiece. There are a few issues, but they can be addressed. I recently worked on a Selmer Focus and this too played really well, but the Concept is just a shade better. Both play better than the M series Vandoren mouthpieces as far as tuning. The Focus will be a huge hit in large halls such as Orchestra Hall in Chicago, because the sound will really carry well.
Cheers folks!
Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-25 07:45)
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-12-25 04:51
At the very least, let's have a ceasefire for Christmas...please...like the WW1 Christmas truce
But really, there is no point for all of us to see this duel. Even Bob has requested for a more private conversation via email. I'm tired of reading all these arguments whenever I open up Clarinet BBoard, which is set as my homepage.
Let's stop arguing so we can all enter the Christmas/New Years spirit.
Cheers!
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-25 21:08
There is no conflict. Like I said, Bob Bernardo's claims have been falsified and if he doesn't want to defend them, it's up to him.
I didn't know zhangray4 was forced to open threads that does not interest him.
Truth seekers don't need holidays to find peace.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-25 22:30
Ray, I'm sorry for this man. You are a nice guy. Just ignore him.
Lets close this thread. He's now picking on a very nice man.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-12-25 23:04
Mr. Nilsson, you are correct. I am not forced to open this thread. I did not say I was forced to open this thread as well.
I open this thread to read because I am interested in the original topic of the post: regarding people's opinions on the M30 mouthpiece. I click on this thread full of hope that I will be able to read about something informative or interesting regarding the M30, or answer any questions people may have, since I've played on quite a few M30s.
Unfortunately, I scoll to the bottom of this thread only to find you attacking Bob simply because his measurements differ from yours. And when Bob offers to talk to you via email to discuss this topic further, you proceed to attack his character and musicianship while not talking to Bob in a coherent manner.
I keep clicking on this thread because I keep having hope that the discussion will turn towards the right direction. Unfortunately, Mr. Nilsson, people like you make me lose hope.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-25 23:38
I can't help people who get offended by facts. Btw it doesn't help since the universe is what it is and does not care about feelings. These actual measurements I presented won't change just because someone wants them to.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-25 23:43
Ray, don't respond to him. Thanks my friend.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-12-25 23:48
[ Alright kids - Back on topic without the hostility. Please - GBK ]
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Author: Episkey
Date: 2017-12-26 00:49
If y’all want my two cents on the subject, for Vandoren mouthpieces I would recommend the BD5 or M30, in that order, followed by the M13 Lyre if you wanted something more close.
For something with more immediate playability I would recommend the Reserve line.
What do I play on? Personally I play on vintage blanks adjusted by Brad Behn.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-12-26 02:13
I recommend the M30 since all other mouthpieces have asymmetrical facing. Don't try to falsify this factual claim. That would be both childish and is off subject in a discussion about the M30 mouthpiece.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-12-26 02:40
Bob, I don't think this guy is ever going to give up. Either he's nuts or he's a troll.
Tony F.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-26 11:54
Tony, he may actually need medical attention. Normal people don't act like this. I'm now trying to protect others, like Ray.
We know that Rico reeds have PESTICIDES on ALL reeds. I wish I could help him. He has my email and phone number but refuses to contact me. Hope he is OK. I'm saddened by this. I'm actually praying for him now. Let's all say a few prayers that he is OK. Thanks!
I'm actually wondering if he plays on Rico reeds and the pesticides have affected his brain slightly. I don't think this is his fault and it could be medically related. I'm sure he is a nice guy. I said this above, by inviting him to meet up.
If he plays on Rico reeds even part of the time, he should surely contact me so he can get treated and sue Rico for millions. Pesticides can screw with lots of parts of your body. Hope it's not the pesticides....
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-26 12:19)
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