 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kristian
Date: 2003-06-30 02:33
Who knows about the reliability and durability of Greenback Valentino pads? How do they compare to other pads? Help!
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-07-01 02:28
Kristian, having installed a fair number of these pads, the best answer I can give you is...it depends.
First of all, I would only install them on normally closed pads in the upper section as well as the side B in the lower section. And even on these keys, their reliability would depend principally upon how the hole matched up with the pad. I have seen compression rings right at the edge of the pad. IMO, this is definitely bad and their reliability falls into the questionable category. If the compression ring is more or less centered in the pad, the pad may last a long time.
I say may because of the following catch 22 situation. IMO, the Valentino requires a little more pressure than other pads to seal well. However, increasing the pad pressure will result in a deeper and deeper compression ring over a long period of time. If the springs are set so that just enough pressure is placed upon the pads to produce a good seal, the pad should last a long time. A higher than actually required pad pressure, IMO, will cause the compression ring to just get deeper and deeper.
IMO, on the open holes, especially the 2 large open holes in the lower section, more effort is required to produce a good seal. This is because the outer surface of the Valentino is rather hard and getting the 2 large open pads to seal properly can be a bit difficult because the linkage applies different pressures on the pads. Even when both close at precisely the same time, extra pressure, IMO, will be required to seal the pad that is receiving less pressure because of the linkage.
So...to make a long story very short, on the smaller, normally closed holes, they are OK if the compression ring is not too close to the edge of the pad.
On the open holes and on the 2 large normally closed holes in the lower section, I recommend a high quality double bladder pad of your choice. Simply because, IMO, they will seal better with less pressure.
Valentino's as well as cork pads work well on the normally closed keys because moisture will not affect them as they would a bladder pad.
All of the above simply represent my observations and I hope you have found the above information useful.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-01 05:04
If you do a search of this site you will find considerable opinion.
So far, in my experience of encountering them but not installing them (as a repairer), I have found them to have as many problems as they solve.
Post Edited (2003-07-01 10:09)
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-07-01 05:33
They are only good for emergency repairs while on a tour or a cruise. No professional repairer would use them. Gordon is right again, more trouble than you can poke a stick at.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-07-01 05:33
I, too, have removed lots of Valentino pads and I have some of the smaller sizes I intend to install on a couple of school horns just to 'see how they do'. From what I've observed from the ones I've taken out I don't really find any great advantage. They seem to have as many flaws as any others. I don't know that they really last any better than regular ones. I've yet to try kid skin pads but I've heard that they're quite durable.
In my own experience and practice I prefer plain ol' double skin pads.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-07-01 17:52
Kristian, I decided to do some more further investigating. Only this time, from the standpoint of the distributor. I figured that they should have a pretty good point of view because they sell them to installers all over the country and they listen to their customers.
In keeping with my agreements with both distributors, company names and names of individuals will be kept confidential. However, both gave me permission to use their comments for this posting.
From Distirbutor A came the following comments:
"We are selling far more now than we every expected to."
"We are getting a lot of positive feedback from people in the field."
"People are putting them on pro-horns."
"We have a customer that has thousands of clarinets in their rental stock with Valentino pads."
"Yamaha has the Valentino on their YCL-250 clarinet."
From Distributor B came the following comments:
"We are selling more now and ever before."
"I know of a college teacher who recommends the Valentino pads to his students because of the sound quality and longevity."
"I install them myself on lots of horns."
"I have never had one returned because of the Valentino pads."
"A lot of Valentino pads are simply installed incorrectly."
So it appears that even though there are professional installers on this BB who don't like them (and that of course is OK), there appears to be many, many installers all over the country who are well pleased with them.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-01 21:58
The last post seems a little naive to me. Those sorts of comments are exactly what I would expect to hear from a distributor of ANY product when they have a financial interest in the sale of that product.
Whenever we like, we can read raving reports on pretty well any product, no matter how poor the quality of that product is. It's called marketing!
Marketing is adept at telling only what it thinks the prospective buyer wants to hear in order to believe in the product. Integrity is revealing the WHOLE truth about the product, warts and all, but this is is incongruous with marketing.
For keys that are normally closed, the type of pad is not too fussy, although very deep seats do tend to cause buzzy sounds, and pads that are insecurely glued, or which have glue which softens in a warm place, are unreliable.
However a pad that is normally open is quite demanding in its design needs if it is to be reliable. It so happens that pads based on wool felt, when properly installed, fit these needs superbly.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-07-02 00:14
Gordon wrote:
"For keys that are normally closed, the type of pad is not too fussy, although very deep seats do tend to cause buzzy sounds, and pads that are insecurely glued, or which have glue which softens in a warm place, are unreliable."
So, Gordon, after analyzing the above statement...if the Valentino is installed correctly on normally closed keys, with only a light compression ring, and is securely glued with high temp glue...it should constitute a realiable pad on the instrument.
Would you agree???
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-07-02 03:30
Dan,
The BACKING on Valentinos is insecurely glued to the pad with sticker type glue. That's the biggest problem of the pad. I don't really see any other problems. IMO, they seal excellent on any key.
Vytas Krass
Post Edited (2003-07-02 03:46)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-02 11:14
Quite! I have found sticker-type glue unreliable in EVERY location it has been tried on instruments, and in most locations on cases as well.
My intruder detector unit has just fallen off the wall. And what stuck it to the wall? You guessed it.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-07-02 12:10
Go back to wax and shellac boys, au naturelle. Anyone who advocates the use of
a) hot melt glue
or
b) rubber pads
should leave it to somebody who knows what they are doing! Go Gordon! What about cleaning that crap out of key cups? What a bloody nightmare made doubly worse if somebody has used rubber pads of any type. May as well use neoprene glue with the Valentinos, they will never come out. Valentino pads are only emergency fixes. If you cant go to the trouble of installing proper pads with proper wax/glue/shellac then you shouldn't be touching instruments. Another gripe is with the genii/ geniuses out there who attach tenon corks with epoxy glue such as araldite. Some of us out here in "television land" have to deal with instruments that have been bodgied up and it is a real piss off.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-07-02 16:27
Gordon: It appears that all of the problems you have had with the Valentino pads is in their previous installation. Is that correct??? Going back to my original question, if they had been installed correctly with high temp hot glue, would the Valentino pads have been reliable on the normally closed keys?
As to the "naive" report from the distributors...I have talked to these individuls now and then over a few years and have found their advice to be in the high integrity catagory. So over a period of time, they have earned my trust.
ron b wrote: "Valentino pads are only emergency fixes."
ron, would you care to more fully explain why the Valentino pads should be used for emergency only? Why are they "improper pads" to put on a clarinet???
My thanks to both of you for expounding upon your opinions.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-07-02 17:23
Don,
I think you are not getting the point. THE BACKING of the pad is glued TO THE PAD with sticker-type glue. It has nothing to do with type of glue you would use for gluing them to the cup.
I recently got a Vintage Buffet R-13 with Valentinos already installed on all keys. I think, the pads were installed a couple of years ago. I checked for leaks and found that the pads sealed perfectly. Also I've noticed that two pads on the Lower –Joint (F/C and E/B) were installed to deep in the cup and decided to fix that. I heated the key and the pad easily popped out with the light touch of my finger. To my surprise backing of the pad was still in the cup. Even hot shellac had a stronger bond than the sticker-type glue used to glue the backing to the pad. Same thing happened to the other pad. End of the story! Good luck with Valentinos.
Vytas Krass
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-02 22:11
Dan wrote "I have talked to these individuals now and then over a few years and have found their advice to be in the high integrity category. So over a period of time, they have earned my trust. "
For perhaps decades, "Smith" has be a distributor of Valentino products. I don't know if they are 'THE' distributor.
I once bought a range of the products, before the days of 'Greenbacks', naively trusting the hype surrounding them. The very first time I tried using them I realised I had been duped. Although Smith sell some good repair gear, I most certainly no longer send any trust in their direction.
Since then, I have encountered Valentino products on a range of cheap (and not so cheap!) instruments, and in every case they are causing problems. A typical example is a clarinet only a year or two old, where the key "corks' are sliding off the keys. It is conscientious repair technicians who have the unfortunate task of explaining to players that they have been deceived regarding the quality they thought they had bought.
Valentino and their agents must certainly know about the problems associated with these products, yet still cry their praises and aggressively market them. For me, that is NOT the stuff that builds trust.
As for removing the messy adhesive used for the laminate when changing pads.... Removing messy adhesive can double the time needed to change a pad in a cup. Although that is not a lot of time, it is a cost that has to be passed on in some form.
Dan, regarding your other comment, "if the Valentino is installed correctly on....", I hope Vytas has clarified your misunderstanding.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-07-02 22:32
Vytas, thank you for taking the time to give an in-depth explanation. I had not noticed this characteristic before. All in all, it still sounds like an installation problem. The reason I say this is because I usually put sufficient hot glue in the cup to have some go along the sides of the pads. Perhaps this is why I haven't noticed this before and perhaps this is what "Distributor B" was referring to in our conversation when he stated that many were being installed wrong.
Also noteworthy is the fact that you had to heat the cup before they "popped" out. I take this to mean the under normal operating temperatures, the Valentino's were basically secure???
I have carefully reread the preceding posts and yes, there was talk about the "sticker type glue being unreliable" but, no one really mentioned if the pads were "popping" out under normal operating conditions. If this is what Gordon and ron b were talking about, it would have been nice for them to have added this information. I simply could not glean it from the words that they had written.
Thanks again, Vytas, for the complete and thorough explanation. It is much appreciated.
Dan
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-03 11:37
My main gripe is the unreliable seating for the normally-open pads.
For the small, normally closed pads:
I don't like the 'mattress syndrome'. At the edge of a mattress there is far less support unless there is special springing here.
Likewise for a pad, there is less pressure exerted very close to the edge than there is further in. Valentino pads, because they are unstepped, are of significantly less diameter than traditional stepped bladder pads, so they can contact the tone hole very close to the edge of the pad.
Also, the bladder pads have EXTRA support near the edge form the edge of the key cup.
Add to the mix of parameters the fact that many key cups are not concentric with their respective tone holes (such that there is uneven pressure around the tone hole - from the mattes syndrome) and you have a recipe for unreliability. As a repairer I gamble with reliability as little as possible. That would be a major factor contributing to my reputation as a technician.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-06-27 01:07
Just wondering if there might be an update in opinions here 14 years later. A number of highly respected repair shops have started using the Valentino Master's pads. I have played and inspected a clarinet done with these and it looks and plays quite well. If I didn't know better I would have assumed they were high quality leather pads.
Updated thoughts??
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-06-27 04:57
I like them if done correctly. Yes they can be tricky to set. Sometimes you have to throw away several before finding the right pad that fits properly. The above post stated using Master pads. They work well too.
For the upper registers I still prefer the Valentino cork pads. The cork is very soft. It takes a lot of time and effort to seal them though. But once you have a perfect seal the cork will last for years and years and the horns sound very nice. You should get about 10 years or so out of the pads before they need replacing from too much chatter. I prefer the sound quality of cork pads on clarinets. Yes there is a slight difference. It's often hard to hear of course, but compared to leather pads there is a difference. I don't think I'd run out and change to cork pads if the clarinet isn't leaking with normal pads, but if I were to do a major pad change I'd surely consider going with the Valentino soft cork. One of the secrets to a achieving a great seal is to lightly sand the pads with 2000 grit sandpaper.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-06-27 11:46
Bob, do you mean the J.L. Smith Valentino synthetic pads in cork colour, or real cork pads from J.L. Smith (who now owns Valentino, although they don't list the cork pads as a Valentino product)?
>> Just wondering if there might be an update in opinions here 14 years later. <<
I recently tried some Valentino Greenback pads (in addition to Masters which I already have) and my impression is they are different from whatever Valentino pads were many years ago. They used to be very soft and sticky and I guess maybe the Quick-Fix model still is since its purpose is to seal without any alignment of the key or pad. The Masters and Greenbacks are different and a big improvement.
Post Edited (2017-06-27 11:47)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-06-27 11:50
clarnibass - The REAL cork pads, not the fake stuff.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-06-27 13:49
Bob, the synthetic pads are not fake cork, they are just available in a few colours, one of them is tan/cork. It was confusing because you called them Valentino. So you just mean the cork pads from J.L. Smith right?
AFAIK all cork pads come pretty much from the same companies, regardless who the supplier is. Some suppliers maybe pay more for higher quality, or just have better QC on their end, I don't know. Quality can vary and I got some terrible cork pads from some suppliers. Smith generally has good quality but I've gotten excellent cork pads from a few suppliers.
Post Edited (2017-06-27 13:52)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-06-29 19:23
I mean real cork pads that you can work with, sand, that made a dent on pads from the tone holes. They seal so well.
I'm not talking about something like some of the wine bottles that use fake cork to bottle their wine, such as those $2 bottle of wines!
At one point I would use real cork from wine bottles to make pads. I made a punch and everything. But the natural cork from Smith is pretty darn good. I still have to use a sharp razor to cut/trim the cork to fit the key holes correctly. Also nail files come in handy.
The problem with cork from wine bottles is it varies in hardness, so you can sometimes hear the cork pads hitting the key holes and it gets worse as the cork ages. So the key was finding soft wine cork.
Right now the cork from J L Smith is really great. It's nice and soft. But it does take a lot of time to seal. Once you get a nice seal your horn can hold a seal for a minute or longer. Basically the horn doesn't leak and won't leak for many years. It's such a joy to play on horns that don't leak. As already noted, every Buffet leaks badly, so it's hard to tell when you have a good horn. Yamaha horns seal pretty darn well.
It's amazing and a treat to play on sealed horns and it's why I still like cork pads! No stuffy notes, free blowing horns, easy to play, no squeaks.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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