 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Classical Saxophonist
Date: 2016-12-23 10:35
Hello,
As my username suggests, I play saxophone, so I'm not super knowledgeable about clarinet mouthpiece designs. Anyways, most clarinet mouthpieces I've seen are semi-rectangle shaped; straight on the sides and round on the top and bottom. Saxophone mouthpieces, however, come in a variety or chamber shapes, such as round, square, horseshoe, and semi-rectangle. They also come in various sizes: small, medium, and large.
For example, here's a picture of a saxophone mouthpiece with a large round chamber. It's completely open with no blockages:
https://caravanmouthpieces.com/images/Mpc_Interior.jpg
Are there any clarinet mouthpieces that have a round chamber, either large, medium, or small? What about other shapes?
Post Edited (2016-12-23 10:45)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-12-23 19:12
I am skeptical that the Bari Esprit has a round chamber. I have not looked inside one but I think it is more likely that this is an error in the listing.
One could customize a junk mouthpiece to try out a round chamber. But just hogging out the sidewalls and throat will make the chamber volume larger and throw the intonation off. A shorter barrel will be needed and even then not all notes will tune well.
Epoxy putty could be used to make the rounded chamber smaller to get its volume back to the original size. This has a better chance of working intonation wise.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-12-23 19:37
But why (in your opinion) have clarinet mouthpiece makers not seemed to be inclined to experiment with this kind of variation in mouthpiece design? There are higher and lower baffles, A-framed and straight, wider and narrower throat openings, scoops behind the tip, wider and narrower bores and all kinds of facing curves, but the overall shape of the chamber - straight side walls, concave ceiling (baffle) - isn't very different among the available mouthpieces.
What (in your conjecture) would be the effect of making a round or oval chambered clarinet mouthpiece or even of just making the side walls a little concave? What does it do for a sax mouthpiece?
Karl
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-12-24 06:01
I know that others will be able to speak more intelligently about it that I can, but I think it has to do with timbre. Clarinets are naturally darker and saxophones are naturally brighter. Vertical sidewalls brighten the sound, and curved sidewalls make the sound richer. Also, as far as I know clarinet mouthpieces have always had vertical sidewall, whereas saxophones moved from rounded to vertical.
To my ear, vertical sidewalls seem to focus the sound and emphasize higher partials. I am not using the word "focus" by analogy with the physical form, that's just the way it actually sounds to me. Rounded sidewalls allow a richer blend of harmonics. IMO modern saxophones are far too bright. A rollover baffle alone can give you all the edge you want. I think the saxophone tone really looses a lot of richness with vertical sidewalls, and tends to become thin. I suffered for years playing Vandoren C series mouthpieces.
The clarinet however, benefits very much from that focus and brighter sound. You want to be heard in an ensemble (not just play really loud), and you want a "ping". I've never heard a clarinet mouthpiece with a round chamber, but I do know that a very dark piece with a deep convex baffle it can make it difficult to compete even in a small chamber group. I assume it would be even more true with a round chamber.
Clarinets are capable of a very large dynamic range, from barely audible to loud, and can tend to a homogeneous sound. Most saxophones are fairly loud, and are anything but homogeneous. IMO clarinets require bringing out the sound, whereas saxophones require reigning it in. Of course both require developing a big sound, but I think you know what I'm getting at. When kids pick up a clarinet, after they get over the initial "honking" stage, they need to work to develop a big rich sound. Some kids never get over the honking phase with a saxophone. Getting a dark controlled saxophone sound is the challenge.
I hardly ever play saxophone anymore, but I did get a Caravan. It was like a miracle. All of the stuff in the sound that made my teeth hurt was instantly gone. I did not find it a resistant at all, but I can see how you might say that if you switched from a big open piece with a big baffle and a very soft reed. The round chamber is kind of like putting it in low gear so that you don't have to ride the brakes all the time. Clarinets don't need that.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2016-12-24 07:31)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-24 07:45
Matt74 wrote:
"Also, as far as I know clarinet mouthpieces have always had vertical sidewall"
According to the following patent documentation, (made by Jerry Hall & Hans Zinner) "inwardly extending vertical sidewalls" were first used (slight "A" frame bore), but, as time went by, this feature was removed. See 3rd paragraph under "History of the Related Art":
https://www.google.com/patents/US5105701
It's rather technical, however, I believe I understand it correctly.
Post Edited (2016-12-24 10:09)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-12-24 09:50
Clarinet mouthpieces have commonly been made with parallel "H-frame" wall chambers as well as A-frame chambers. Some of the early Selmer "bottom logo" mouthpieces from the 1920s have pronounced A shape tone chambers. Ben Redwine (on Amazon) offers an "A-frame model" made from a Zinner blank. Many of H. Viotto mouthpieces have A-frame chambers, especially the models for the German clarinet. Brad Behn uses A-frame chambers in both his small and large-chamber Epic mouthpieces and his Sono mouthpiece model as well. You can clearly see the A shape of the chamber in this photo of the Sono model from his website:
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/sono-clarinet-mouthpieces.
In describing Boosey and Hawkes mouthpieces made from circa 1934-1946, Ramon Wodkowski says they "had a large, long window with a wide A-frame
chamber . . . ."
http://ramonwodkowsi.wordpress.com/?ref=spelling. Entry for Sept. 14, 2013 "Boosey and Hawkes Pre-War Mouthpieces"
A-shaped chambers were also a common feature of many of Ralph Morgan's clarinet mouthpiece designs.
A recent Nick Kuckmeier Soloist M model mouthpiece I own (from Austria) has a very pronounced medium size A-frame and plays well on most French Boehm clarinets (Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha).
Post Edited (2017-08-28 21:24)
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Author: Classical Saxophonist
Date: 2016-12-24 10:32
Thanks for the responses so far.
On saxophone, a large chamber makes the sound darker and more "spread" or homogeneous. The large chamber classical saxophone mouthpieces also have no baffle, which increases the roundness. These large chamber mouthpieces also have carved-out inner sidewalls. ie. the walls starting from the tip are carved out instead of straight.
The large chamber with no baffle was the original mouthpiece design created by Adolphe Sax. I wonder why he went with this style? You would think he would use a design similar to the clarinet mouthpieces. What were clarinet mouthpieces like in the mid 1800s?
My current classical sax mouthpiece is a Vandoren Optimum AL3, which has a medium round chamber and no baffle. It doesn't create a sound that is too much different than the medium square chamber Selmer s80 C*. Both produce a sound with medium brightness and no edge. I wonder what different chamber shapes actually do?
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-12-24 19:39
See my post #15 in that thread.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-24 22:25
Mojo, good point! And, your analysis appears to be exactly what the O.P. of this thread is saying. It is interesting, though, that one poster found the "square chamber" to be "brighter" while another said it sounded "darker" to him.
Different hearing abilities? Or, different "mental sound interpretations" in the brain? Can 2 people hear the same sound and one say it sounds"dark" while the other says it's "bright"?
Just a thought...
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-12-24 22:41
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Different hearing abilities? Or, different "mental sound
> interpretations" in the brain? Can 2 people hear the same sound
> and one say it sounds"dark" while the other says it's "bright"?
>
Or more differences than just the bore shape between the mouthpieces being described?
Classical Saxophonist wrote:
> The large chamber classical saxophone
> mouthpieces also have no baffle, which increases the roundness.
>
> The large chamber with no baffle was the original mouthpiece
> design created by Adolphe Sax.
I don't understand this - or my understanding is incorrect of what the baffle is. I think of the baffle as the top of the chamber extending from the tip to the throat. What does the inside of a mouthpiece without a baffle look like? Help!!
Karl
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Author: Classical Saxophonist
Date: 2016-12-24 23:31
The higher and bigger the baffle, the edgier the sound is.
Here's a classical sax mouthpiece with no baffle:
https://www.google.com/search?q=otto+link+baffle&client=ms-android-verizon&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3ypGWx43RAhVKLSYKHTPzDM4Q_AUICCgC&biw=360&bih=511#tbm=isch&q=vandoren+al3&imgrc=b3vJdXRE7T0-dM%3A
Now here's a jazz mouthpiece with a rollover baffle. Notice the raised part after the tip:
https://www.google.com/s
earch?q=otto+link+baffle&client=ms-android-verizon&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3ypGWx43RAhVKLSYKHTPzDM4Q_AUICCgC&biw=360&bih=511#imgrc=Kv2jNIsrEO8TDM%3A
And here is a high baffle mouthpiece:
http://www.doctorsax.biz/musical%20instruments/mouthpieces/sax/tenor/vandoren/jumbojavaT95new/pict03.JPG
Post Edited (2016-12-24 23:39)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-12-24 23:47
When I said "C series" I meant "S-80 series" (it's been a while - The marking on mine looks like S-80, with a big "C" around the s) I used a C star, C double star, and D.
I was aware of "A" frame clarinet pieces, but I wasn't aware they were originally made this way. Thank you!
"In the following thread, saxophone square chambers and round chambers appear to produce different, conflicting sound results for different players. There appears to be no absolute consensus. An important point brought out, though, concerns the acuteness of one's hearing abilities."
It is undoubtedly true that the same piece will sound different when played by different players on different horns. However, I think a lot of ideas and expectations affect players descriptions of "light" and "dark". There is a difference between the way something sounds, and the way someone describes it. If the S-80 sound is considered "classical", that sound is also termed "dark". simply because it's "classical". It may be dark compared to a jazz piece. However, it's certainly bright and edgy when compared to virtually any clarinet (or oboe, bassoon, recorder, etc.).
I think of the modern saxophone like a jet fighter. They design fighter jets to be aerodynamically unstable. Some of them can only be flown with the help of a computer. This is because the instability makes it more agile. You can turn faster. That's why you can get such a range of sound out of a saxophone. It's flexible. A rock solid stable aircraft like a jumbo jet won't turn 360 on a dime. The clarinet is more like the jumbo jet. Boats are the same way with their keel design. The clarinet wants to sound a certain way, so "souping it up" (aka "Hot Rodding") is beneficial.
"On saxophone, a large chamber makes the sound darker and more "spread" or homogeneous. The large chamber classical saxophone mouthpieces also have no baffle, which increases the roundness. These large chamber mouthpieces also have carved-out inner sidewalls. ie. the walls starting from the tip are carved out instead of straight."
I don't know. It may be the size of the chamber, or overall internal volume of the mouthpiece, rather than the shape, that really makes the difference. (The "chamber" in saxophone mouthpieces also includes what would be called the "bore" in clarinet mouthpieces.)
As I understand, the size of the internal volume of a clarinet mouthpiece has a considerable effect on the intonation of the instrument. Because the Saxophone is so much larger relative to the mouthpiece than the Clarinet it might be that Adolphe Sax tried to compensate for this with a mouthpiece with a larger internal volume, and eliminated the sidewalls to do this. it may be that if you created a larger volume clarinet mouthpiece by carving out the sidewalls, that you would have to shorten the mouthpiece bore, and your intonation would go out the window because the overall length of the horn and mouthpiece was too short. That's just a guess.
I wish we were better educated about these things.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Classical Saxophonist
Date: 2016-12-24 23:52
I think a saxophone with a classical mouthpiece is much darker and less piercing than an oboe. Compare the same piece of music played on an oboe vs. a classical soprano sax.
Post Edited (2016-12-24 23:54)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2016-12-25 01:21
Classical Saxophonist, Thank you for the links to the pictures. After viewing them, I'm pretty sure the "no baffle" referred to is actually a perfectly flat baffle, both vertically and horizontally, from the tip to the throat or bore entry.
Interesting, on Brad Behn's website, a larger clarinet chamber produces a "broader tone" and nothing is said about it being "darker", just a more spread out sound (my interpretation). A smaller chamber simply produces a more "focused voice". (Please see http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/epic-clarinet-mouthpieces and scroll down to the section on "Small or Large Chamber?")
Now, let me try to answer my own question concerning perception of dark and light musical tones. After reading the following article, my interpretation of that which is written is that it simply boils down to "acuteness of hearing". Some people, like me, simply cannot hear the partials that make up a "pingy sound" or a "bright sound". (Yes, I use "very strong" hearing aids.) Also, in the article, the concept of a "pingy sound" is, IMO, very clearly defined.
http://www.earspasm.com/omega/dark-tone-vs-bright-tone-vs/
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-12-27 13:51
I've never seen a round chamber clarinet mpc. On alto sax I can not hear much difference between a modern Selmer C* (square chamber) and a vintage C* (small round chamber). So my guess is also the shape is less important than the dimensional area.
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