 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Richie
Date: 2016-11-13 21:13
All region final auditions are in a few days for me, and it just dawned on me that the tuning of my low e is not great. It ends up playing 10 cents flat, part of it is probably me, but my mouthpiece has a reputation for playing flat as well. Is there anything I can do to raise it's pitch a little? (Bonus points if anyone has audition tips, I'm a little nervous.)
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2016-11-13 21:32
10 cents on the low E is well within acceptable limits. Stop looking at the tuner.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-14 02:07
On the majority of clarinets, low E is normally a flat note along with low F.
It's necessary for it to be like that as if the low E and F were bang smack in tune, your upper register B and C would then be too sharp and there's no way of flattening them using special fingerings as you can do on other notes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-14 04:06
The main thing is play well. Keep the rhythms tight. You will be fine. Needless to say use the best reed you have.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-11-14 08:54
On a Buffet Prestige Bb R13 a few years old that I have, the low E and the low F are close on pitch as well as the middle B and C as it came from the factory, via Matthew's Musiek in the Netherlands. Why is this so??
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-11-14 19:46
Most of the time clarinetists who use Boehm system instruments (my understanding is that this is an idiosyncrasy of the Boehm system only) just accept the flatness of Low E and F routinely. At that pitch level, it's not as noticeable aurally as it might be higher in the compass. On the rare occasions where unisons with other instruments are involved and the difference becomes more noticeable, the other instrument can often make the needed adjustment. This flatness mostly becomes evident to people who put tuners in front of themselves.
The judges at the region auditions will not be checking anything with tuners, nor will you need to play in tune with anyone else (unless there's a piano accompanist involved, which introduces a whole raft of other intonation problems, flat E and F being the least of them). Unless your bottom notes are abnormally out of tune, to the point where it's obvious without resorting to a tuner, I agree with everyone else - forget about it.
If it's more serious than typical Boehm tuning, you really need to just get through the audition and then, once the deadline is past, work with a good repair tech to figure out what the problem is.
Karl
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2016-11-14 20:50
Ditto on what Karl just said.
However, it is very hard to affect the tuning of these notes without negatively affecting the 12ths above. Some clarinets tune better than others. Another reason to pick your clarinet carefully when buying.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Grabner Barrels on Sale
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-11-15 01:59
Walter Grabner wrote:
>> However, it is very hard to affect the tuning of these notes [E, F] without negatively affecting the 12ths above [B, C]. Some clarinets tune better than others. Another reason to pick your clarinet carefully when buying. >>
As I know very well that Walter knows, different instrument makers have partially solved the problem to varying degrees by locally altering the bore of the instrument. On French style instruments, that has been mostly done by increasing the 'flare' of the lower joint at the bottom.
The unfortunate collateral effect of that is to reduce the richness of the chalumeau register – and indeed, the richness of the whole instrument. German makers have mostly refused that compromise, and in some cases have provided an extra key to maintain the cylindrical character of the lower joint whilst providing a well-in-tune F and E, using the key.
But, as Walter says, the compromise is not 'all-or-nothing' on the standard Boehm instrument. Many other variables are in play, and some French clarinets do better than others.
Tony
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-11-15 05:11
At the audition, accurate rhythm is much more important than speed. Play at 90% of your best speed. If they want it faster they'll ask, and you will have the advantage of just having played the passage.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2016-11-15 21:27
Re your audition, please remember that the judges are not there to be mean. They honestly want you to do well. They're musicians just like you, and they appreciate and enjoy listening to good musicians.
They're hearing the same piece played over and over and it can become tedious. Go in with a smile on your face and be confident that you're going to make their day.
P. S. A flat low E is nothing to worry about.
Post Edited (2016-11-15 21:27)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-16 11:23
Take the flat low Es in your stride. It's just a characteristic.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-11-16 18:37
The slow movement of the Saint-Saens sonata has low E a number of times. I've a recording by a justly famous player, and overall it's marvelous, but listening to that movement jars my ears because the low notes are slightly out of tune with the piano. It spoils the effect of the music.
The replies above seem to indicate that there's no remedy for this. If the instrument has the low E problem, should this piece be avoided? Or, hmm, could (length) adjustments be made just for this passage, since it doesn't venture into the clarion register, with subsequent unadjusting before the next entrance?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-16 22:29
You could always detune the piano to match.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-11-16 23:19
Philip Caron wrote:
> The slow movement of the Saint-Saens sonata has low E a number
> of times. I've a recording by a justly famous player, and
> overall it's marvelous, but listening to that movement jars my
> ears because the low notes are slightly out of tune with the
> piano. It spoils the effect of the music.
>
Of course, in the age of digital sound processing, that should be remediable in the editing process for a recording - assuming separate master tracks of the clarinet and the piano are available. Pop artists do this kind of correction all the time, from what I read.
For live performance, I suspect it wouldn't be as noticeable. The sounds of both the piano and the clarinet are more complex in person than most playback equipment can reproduce, assuming the recording was able to capture it in the first place. I've only heard one live performance with a clarinetist other than me playing, and I didn't notice a problem.
> could (length) adjustments be made just for this passage...?
In any case, you'd have to make the clarinet sharper (shorter) for the lowest (longest) note on the instrument. Most clarinets aren't set up to allow pushing anything in to sharpen low E. I think you'd need to re-design the bottom section and bell of the instrument to give yourself that kind of flexibility *upward.* Maybe a different bell - shorter or narrower-bored would make enough of a difference, but it would have to be adjusted back on the fly to play B4 and C5 in tune, or a more traditional bell would have to be swapped back in. Some clarinets are designed with a vent in the bell - I don't know first-hand if they're normally covered (to preserve B and C intonation) and somehow open only for low E and F. Maybe easiest, design an insert for the bell that could be inserted and removed like a trumpet mute. I guess whether or not all this is worthwhile depends on the intonation of the player's specific instrument and on what you give up in resonance for the improved pitch.
Karl
Post Edited (2016-11-17 06:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-17 02:43
The Yamaha CSGIII has a low E and F correction key for the right thumb to raise the pitch of both low E and F.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-11-17 23:32
A solution that sounds radical, but in fact really isn't, is to bore a hole in the bell that passes through the tenon of the bottom joint, roughly in the centre of the cork.
Then, having the hole in the bell aligned with the hole in the tenon sharpens the low E, and to a smaller extent the low F.
A small rotation of the bell shuts off the hole.
The upshot is that, given time to make the adjustment – if you're well prepared, it takes around a second with a suitably greased joint – you can have a better in tune E/F.
(If you don't have the time, you're just unlucky:-)
Jon Steward ex of Howarths did this for me on an old C clarinet; it worked well for a particular problem I was having.
Tony
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-11-18 01:07
Tony, do you think there's any probability of weakening either the bell socket or the bottom tenon? How large (diameter) is the hole?
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2016-11-18 03:07
>> Tony, do you think there's any probability of weakening either the bell socket or the bottom tenon? >>
Well, I suppose the answer has to be, yes. But I don't think it's a significant worry.
>> How large (diameter) is the hole? >>
Four to five millimeters, I don't know exactly as I'm not at home.
I notice I haven't had it done on my standard instruments, and I don't know any professionals who have. But sometimes you just want a bit of help with the situation, and in my case that provided it. I can't even remember what the piece was...
Jon Steward said he'd seen the correction provided in this simple form on some German instruments.
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-11-18 04:04
Some reform Boehms have the bell vent hole going through the bell socket and the tenon as do some older Oehlers. But Oehlers tend to have a much larger diameter bell vent hole located below the socket to do the same thing covered by a large pad cup.
The Yamaha CSGIII has a very small vent hole drilled above the tenon to sharpen the low E, so all the mechanism is on the lower joint and not involving a bell key.
It fits with the principles that a small tonehole located higher up the joint will produce the same pitch note as a larger one placed much further down, but the tone quality is compromised using a small tonehole placed higher up the joint compared to a correctly positioned and much larger diameter tonehole.
A hole drilled through the tenon will weaken the tenon at the free end and a crack can run into the hole but shouldn't spread any further north. However, a hole going through a socket is supported at the top end by the socket ring, but it will increase the risk of a crack opening up below it and running down the socket and into the bell and all the way to the bell flare if it isn't stopped.
Full Boehms often suffer with middle socket cracks as the C#/G# tonehole goes through the socket and the crack often terminates in the C/G tonehole below it as there's nothing to support the pressure exerted within the socket below the socket ring. Same with oboe bells where the socket can crack and run into the bell key tonehole. Having a metal socket lining doesn't help much either and is often a contributor to socket cracks as the wood can shrink but the metal won't move at all and the wood is going to give first. So a bell with a vent drilled through or near the socket has a much greater risk of cracking than one without.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-18 08:41
Chris P is right about the extra key on the CSG Yamaha's. I tested one and it works well.
There are several things one can do. Start with the last one first.
1 - A shorter bell. Talk to a guy named Ryan,
Ryan Pereira ryancpereira7@gmail.com MAKE SURE you tell him I sent you. We had a booth next to each other. He makes synthetic barrels and bells. using 3D printing.
What is 3D printing? It's been around for a bit but it's still new and it's actually 3D molding. He was at the ClarinetFest and sold a lot. Even Michele Zukovski bought a barrel. They are light weight and made of assorted materials. I had some cracked ribs so wasn't able to test them. Measure yours and go 1.00mm smaller. My complaint, but in your case it to your benefit plastic can shrink a lot. If you are now sharp, just pull the bell out a tiny bit.
2 - SOME, but very few all German bells have a hole in the bell. You can try taking a drill bit, starting with an 1/8" bit and drill a hole in the center bell. If it helps raise the pitch. 5 cents well great, leave it alone. If the sound is effected cover it up with tape for now and when you have time use epoxy to fill it, black of course. If it only drops about 2 cents try a 1/4" drill bit. Same process.
3 - go on ebay and find look up bells. Measure the length of yours and find one smaller. Probably for about $35 or less used. I personally wouldn't bother.
4 - the people hearing you play may not hear 10 cents.
5 - add a few small 2 inch by 1 inch cut cardboard sheets of paper inside of the bell. See if this works. Go to a place like an art store, or any store, even a grocery store, a 99 cent store and buy a notebook, cut out the cardboard and use double stick tape to glue the cardbord paper inside of the bell. You want to use small pieces so the cardboard, it comes off and holds easily. You won't need much to raise the pitch 5 cents.
Why 5 cents? Well if you are playing a chord say C E G, the E will be out of tune if it is perfectly on pitch. The E has to be flattened to be in tune with the C and the G. Thirds are ALWAYS flattened to be in tune.
Unless the people have perfect pitch they will never hear 5 cents. Even with perfect pitch! 5 cents flat is about what is needed to play the C E G chord in tune. So if a clarinet if off a few cents don't worry. It's really hard to hear.
I'm 60 years old, with one heck of an ear. When we were going to school we had tuning forks or an electronic meter that plays only one concert pitch! They weren't cheap! $50 for 1 note! You can get them off of the internet for free. No need to buy one! Hope these ideas help.
Oh, based on my first post I wouldn't bother doing a thing! Just play the audition, because the people hearing you probably won't really care. They want to know how well you can play.
A really funny story. I took an audition one time outside of Philly in the late 1970's a concerto competition and you always ware a suit, tie, well I forgot the suit pants. walked in with shorts on. It was summer. Played the Debussy very well and won the contest. I performed it a few months later. The 5 judges had some very interesting remarks, such as music is not a joke. Another, I assume you were either really hot or the cleaners burned your pants.
So play great. Let us know how you do. Send a tape to me if you wish, before the audition. I may have some bells around that might fit if you are too far off.
savagesax@aol.com
Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-11-18 11:05
In the mid 1950s Mitchell Lurie suggested that I visit the legendary Glen Johnston because my pair of full Boehm Buffet one piece clarinets were a bit flat, maybe at A435. Glen adjusted some key heights, replaced a few pads, told some stories, and suggested that the bells be shortened by a repair person known as Big Mac. They were shortened by a ring width on a lathe and the ring replaced. Glen did some further tuning and it all worked great.
Later, he tuned a C clarinet for me and drilled a hole in the bell below the tenon on that instrument and that worked great, too. I still have those instruments. He undercut and overcut the hole in the bell. In those shops, the floors were so messy that if one lost a screw on the floor it might not be found.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-11-18 18:35
I just shortened a Backun bell for a freind. Needed to take 3/16" off to gain 10 to 12 cents. I sawed off the socket end and bored the socket a little deeper.
The wood bulge at the top is actually a glued on ring of wood. I thought it was just some lathe work. I cut about 1/2 of it away.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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