 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-21 05:36
I have taken apart the Upper Joint, but did my first Lower Joint today. Well, actually, I lack one Pivot Screw from finishing the L/J repad.
Those pesky little screws can be a problem. I kept them marked and i kept them put away while placing back on horn one at a time.. But I dropped one on the table as i was putting back on a nd it bounced off the Table and into the floor.
Latkah, our Welsh Corgi, had it for a snack. <grin>
Now to find another Pivot Screw !
Best,
mw
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Author: jerry
Date: 2001-05-21 11:56
Can't help this time but place a white sheet over the table next time. It helps to prevent the bouncing screw, makes it easer to see the potential bouncers and cushions the clarinet -- don't want any dings in the table (I mean the clarinet).
~ jerry
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-05-21 14:13
M W, All of we "garage-type" repairers have lost a pivot or worse. After I learned to be very careful, on removing a key or stack, I return the pivot screw or rod to its proper location, threaded in a couple of turns for security, not having to resort to a labelled "storage board" like my pro friends do. At times, I still have to resort to a magnet to pick a Li'l Devil up out of the carpet!! Luck, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2001-05-21 15:15
Remember, what goes up, must come down--in/out--get the idea??? Good luck!!!!!!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-21 15:30
William, we (all family members) discussed the Theory related to your comment. There were *NO VOLUNTEERS*. Further, I (even) discussed the _possibility_ of remuneration to a (successful) "SEEKER". This last concept generated a fair amount of dialogue. It was the opinion of the majority that (any such) remuneration should be paid regardless of a successful/unsuccessful search. At this point the meeting deteriorated .... it really just "crapped out".
We have checked with Latkah's vet and have been told not to worry! (but keepo those cards & letters comin')
Now for my search for Pivot Keys ....
Thanks all.
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-21 15:34
Jerry & Don & others, thanks too for your thoughful comments. I think white paper is good idea. I think Don's comment about not backing off (enough, also so that pivot point do not sustain damage) entirely from the post or putting back on before reassembly makes sense to.
Again, my thanks to all. Its hard to stay mad at yourself when your laughing THAT hard!
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-05-21 19:08
If you use a garden hose to "search" the dog's digestive products, it will melt away the "ahem" stuff and you should find the lost metal item fairly easily.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-21 19:21
Brenda, thanks for your idea. Man's Best Fried has a little over 1/2 acre in our back yard to call his own. He has bird & squirrel friends & likes to let them know he was there ... every tree & post & bush. I asked my wife a few minutes ago he she knew when Latkah did his "thing". She said "all the time". I just suggested to her that the the grass (surely) needs to be watered later today!
Best,
mw
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-05-22 00:00
MW,
I have a friend who lost a dental crown. By using zip lock bags a successful and not too messy retrieval was accomplished (water can be added to help out if you need it). With this being said, I would suggest just going in to a repair shop instead and parting with the $0.50 it is going to cost for a new screw! You don't have to admit to having yielded a screw driver if you don't want to.
Terry
P.S., I still love the dog's name. Do you speak a bit of Hebrew or is he named for a character from "Taxi"?
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Author: jerry
Date: 2001-05-22 01:10
Terry,
But for the cost of a "crown", I don't think I would feel too comfortable with that one in my mouth -- knowing where it has been! But "crowns" are not cheap (not even inexpensive at half their cost), sooo........
I mean you can just about find a good R-13 for the price of a root canal and a crown.
~ jerry
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-05-22 01:15
.50 for a pivot screw !?.......not if it's a Buffet! We're talking $36 per dozen or $3 a piece for the old style. (They like it when they have you by the cajones!) Other makers are cheaper.
John
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-22 02:13
Well this was intended as joke & a "funny".... some of us enjoyed it, I think.
FWIW. its my understanding that all Pivot Screws are not created alike. John is (as always) correct. Also, I wouldn't want to put any Pivot Screw in, it should be the right one. (one that fits)
I would suggest that if anyone should call Boosey & Hawkes it will soon be discovered that Pivot Screws are not available on a onesie basis ... you'll quickly find out that they are sold by B & H in complete sets by instrument. YES, complete sets of Pivot Screws. (& with the move to CA the Parts Dep't is behind). AND, don't forget about the UPS freight There is no free lunch. Heck, I run a business & don't begrudge them one bit.
Anyway, could I go to Brook Mayes and get a Pivot Screw for $3 ? Not in my neck of the woods.
Best,
mw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-05-22 02:32
Actually if you are on good terms with your local repair tech, they will sell you little things like this at their cost. The ones I know don't mind doing so as pivot screws get lost on a regular basis. Nor do they get excited about you putting them in yourself. It isn't hard to do and the ones I know have enough work that they don't feel like you are taking work away from them.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-22 04:20
Thats fine, just as long as you don't feel that evrybody should feel the same way that you do. I own a business & my company does more than its share of pro bono work. However, we don't give other work away for free to walk-ins; I don't expect others to do it for me. I certainly would _NEVER_ ask! I don't doubt the inherit goodness of others. I have seen too many business fail because of kind heartedness that was not repaid through patronizing that merchant later.
Actually I am privy to discussions on another Thread where customers who come to their local Music Store to buy Pads are not looked upon so favorably (at all times) by music repair professionals --- rather they chuckle about the nerve of some people --- it appears to be somewhat of a standing joke. We have a number of people here who partake or listen in on the OTHER Thread.
I have plenty of (old & new) E-11 & R-13 Pivot Screws on order. I doubt that I weill want for them in the future. AND, I feel confident that I can replace the AWOL SCREW!
Best,
mw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-05-22 11:22
mw wrote:
>
> Thats fine, just as long as you don't feel that evrybody
> should feel the same way that you do. I own a business & my
> company does more than its share of pro bono work
I never, ever said a think about pro bono work. I said that some repair techs *NOT ALL* are willing to sell you a pivot screw and some of them will even do so at cost. I don't expect it of course.
Please do not read into a post those things which are not there.
I certainly want good businesses to stay in business so that I have qualified places to go when I need goods and services.
However, every instrumentalist really ought to have some basic fundamental skills. If a screw falls out at a concert, you ought to be capable, under ordinary circumstances, of putting it back in. Of course if there is a chance that something is bent or otherwise not up to par, a tech should look it over later.
Personally, I take my good instruments in to a repair tech about once a year and happily pay them to look it over to find any little things that might be developing. Sometimes they find something and sometimes they don't. Either way, I glad to pay for their time.
Also keep in mind that some people live or used to live "in the back of beyond" where repair services are a major problem. When I was a kid, I lived in a very rural area. There were no repair techs anywhere close. You needed to be able to replace the occasional screw or pad. Then when there was enough stuff to go over or in the case of a major problem, you made a pilgrimage to the big city and left it to be fixed up right. Of course this trip would be combined with whatever else you might need to do in the city. A month later you made another pilgrimage to pick it up and do more errands.
You ask what about sending it off. Not back then. Students and band directors didn't know about these specialists. Nor would many of us have been willing to trust it to the mail or shipping services. We used a lot of mail order in the country and some of the packages were severely damaged but being soft goods like clothing it wasn't usually a problem. There were times we had to send back for a replacement though.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-22 13:20
When a Repair Tech sells you Parts at their cost with _no markup_ that IS pro bono. They are foregoing a MARKUP.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-05-22 14:35
Jerry,
We all have good autoclaves. It does make a good story about how you "processed" your dental work. More importantly is why did it come off in the first place? That "processing" won't improve it's retention!
Cheers, Terry
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-05-22 14:46
Hey guys lighten up. If I go into a store and ask for and get (free or $3) a screw for my horn, I'm a happy guy and I will return and buy parts, music, reeds, stands, maybe even a new or used horn. If I walk in and the guy at the front sort of quivers and says "go ask the repair guy" then the repair guy says essentially go take a hike.... you bet I will. It boils down to if the store treats you right you return. If they don't want to sell you a pad, a screw or two now and again I understand, but that is why the mail order companies are dong so well. They have discovered what brings in return business.
Like I said before in an earlier post, go to the repair guy for a screw and pay the $.50.... or the $5 if that is what it takes. Otherwise just go to a jewler or machinist or retired machinist, or to almost any gunsmith and have them make you up a screw. Remember this technology isn't exactly cutting edge new.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-22 15:13
Ok, Terry. But, it was Pivot Screws, NOT Autoclaves!
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-05-22 16:28
Note that I *NEVER, NEVER* said that I expected them to sell me the screw at their cost. I have *NEVER* asked them to sell me any items at their cost or provide it for free. My statements merely recorded what sometimes occurs. I always expect to pay for material and also for the retail markup. That some sell at their cost is their choice and I assume that they do it for their own reasons (such as customer relations). Naturally I appreciate it when they do and make a point of return and additional business with companies I like. However, what a company may choose to do to promote their business is not and should not be considered pro bono work.
You sound as if you have had some bad experiences that have made you a tad bit paranoid on the subject. Please don't paint all customers with the same brush.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-22 17:21
Dee said:
"Actually if you are on good terms with your local repair tech, they will sell you little things like this at their cost."
----------------------------------
Sorry, but the above is what you wrote --- I think you are splitting hairs now.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-05-22 23:21
Nope you are the one splitting hairs. You took what I wrote and assumed that I actually expected such service. I don't. Then you classified it as pro bono when it wasn't. And seemed rather upset that repair techs sometimes do these things.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-05-23 13:47
You are a lucky person if you can buy, sorry obtain, a screw that is a perfect fit straight away. How far a 'headed' screw goes into the post, for tapered-end screws, adjusts the sloppiness out of the pivot. Accurate linkage connections and pad seating reliability depend on close to zero pivot sloppiness. Even if the pivot scews are switched around on one instrument it can often cause some pivots to jam and others to become sloppy. This is evidence that even one maker's pivot screws for a given model are often not built the same (euphemism for poor quaitly control). Add to this the way some manufacturers keep changing the threads on their screws.
For soprano clarinets alone I stock 22 different pivot screw, none of them interchangeable on account of different shape, thread, length, style, and yet I still have to frequently modify a post or screw for correct fitting.
I have about 13 different threads of taps and dies approximating clarinet pivot diameter, some of them quite obscure. And yet still I frequently encounter "special" threads, i.e. com;letely non-standard ones that have been used by a manufcturer especially so that they cannot be duplicated without the enormous expense of custom made taps and dies.
So replacement is often is not that simple. No wonder "repairers" have so often used totally unsuitable replacements.
My screw stock, with its exceedingly slow turnover, would need hundreds of % profit to cover costs of sourcing, obtaining, minimum purchase quantities, organized storage, tabulating of threads, wrongly-filled orders, dead nature of the stock, etc. And indeed, if they were low turn-over car parts, they would be exorbitantly expensive, not available, or you would have to buy the entire "unit" (1/2 clarinet?!).
I have sometimes resorted to making them from scratch, about 1/2 hour on a lathe, etc, for an accurate job. Not cheap!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-05-23 18:58
Thanks, Gordon. John Butler has been working at educating me (slowly as I don't take that quickly to Engineering). I know what you say is 100% correct, too. John has mentioned the Lathe & it sounds like a real art.
I certainly can tell when a key is binding. No doubt, if you get the order or placement of screws mixed up it can present a real problems. SLOW/CAREFUL is the order of the day.
My problem here was isolated to Buffet. (I have limited my slection of horns to work with to reasonably well made, working, not to expensive horns to practice on. The Buffet E-11/B-12 & Yamaha 20/34 seem to fit the bill.
Buffet tells me that on an E-11/Evette or a (old Pivot screw accepting, pre-426,xxx serial #) R-13 ... that there are basically three (3) different types of Pivot screws available/involved. I think that the new design (plastic locking head, post-426,xxx serial #) Pivot Screw there are three (3) types as well.
Of course, now lets bring in lots of manufacturer's .... and everything is multiplied as you have listed above.
Best,
mw
PS I think its important to recognize one's limitations in maintenance/repair work. Yet, the only way to learn is to endeavor & try. I wish John Butler had his Clarinet-Instrument Repair School "enrollment ready".
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The Clarinet Pages
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