 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-03-11 08:43
Hello! I'm currently a sophomore looking to get into Wind Ensemble at my high school and I was thinking of buying my own Eb bass clarinet. I've looked into this thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=285018&t=285018
And getting the Yamaha 221II + Fobes Debut mouthpiece seems really promising, but I saw this on Amazon and it really attracted me because I'd like to save my parents some money, you know?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B005D6P1J6/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
If anyone knows of this model and brand, please leave comments on if it's suitable especially compared to the Yamaha 221!
Also, is there a difference between Yamaha 221 and Yamaha 221II? Are they the same thing? Just making sure because I heard 220 is a lot worse and I'm really surprised that there's such a difference. Better safe than sorry!
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-YCL-221-Student-Bass-Clarinet/dp/B0002F7CJK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457668636&sr=8-1&keywords=yamaha+bass+clarinet
vs. this next one that doesn't say the II part
http://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-YCL-221-Student-Bass-Clarinet-with-Low-Eb-461372-i1142814.wwbw#/product-details
Thank you to anyone who can help!! I would just like to have a plan set before bringing it up with my parents. Please respond soon as I would like to switch to it ASAP before my auditions in May.
[Also appreciated: any further recommendations on models, reeds (RICO vs. Vandoren? Never heard of this debate until today), mouthpieces, and just overall tips to help me make the cut!! (Also any good, cheap sites selling the Yamaha model would be very cool ^_^ ) THANK YOU!]
Post Edited (2016-03-11 11:22)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2016-03-11 16:42
Ridenour 925e. ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Check the posts on this BB, ignoring the "bad keywork" comments from long ago.
B.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2016-03-11 17:26
Baas clarinets are in Bb, Alto clarinets are in Eb. But that's just me.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-03-11 18:13
He/she probably means range to low Eb vs low C.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-03-11 19:43
Hi Banangerine,
You are off to a great start with the "I would just like to have a plan set before bringing it up with my parents." Nothing like showing solid initiative also by getting info from the BB.
I play bass clarinet and have an older Selmer Model 30, a Ridenour 925e, and have played several 221IIs; I like them all. However, the Ridenour 925e would IMHO be your best bet. It has the double register key, comes with many features found only on more expensive instruments, and best of all has terrific intonation. While I prefer my Selmer, having a 925e as my backup is the best of both worlds.
You can get a trial period on the Ridenour and although I do not use Tom's bass MP, I would imagine it is good. I can't help you with the Berkley bass but I doubt seriously if this is the way to go.
On reeds and other stuff, check this link to Michael Lowenstern (a terrific player and a real nut). He has other videos that are terrific as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wer5Zr26vrI
Please report back on how you do.
HRL
PS The Yamaha 221II is wonderful (I play Yamaha CS Custom clarinets and saxophones) but there are some tuning problems that you can find out about on this BB.
Post Edited (2016-03-11 22:42)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-03-11 21:41
The Yamaha is a great, great horn in every way but one: tuning. I have no direct experience with the Ridenour, but I know several people whose opinion I respect that love it. Were I in your shoes, that's the one I'd choose.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2016-03-12 02:12
Quote:
The Yamaha is a great, great horn in every way but one: tuning.
I think it's A442. I just pull out the neck about 3/8 of an inch.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-03-12 03:07
Repair technicians perspective (also my wife plays bass clarinet).
Please stay away from the Berkeley. Yamaha is better made than other student bass clarinets and will give you fewer problems down the road. It will also have good resale value. Jupiter is OK but I would still get they Yamaha since the price is not much different. Sorry, I'm not sold on Ridenour.
Steve Ocone
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2016-03-12 08:22
Yamaha quality is generally excellent. The problem with asking the Internet for advice is that it turns into a poll of what responders own. I don't know what is near you for retailers, but it might be worth a trip to LA to visit someplace like RDG woodwinds if they have different basses in stock.
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-03-12 12:16
Glad I could cross one option off my list and get a better one in return!
Post Edited (2016-03-12 12:24)
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-03-12 12:22
Thank you for all the replies!
First of all, I was wondering what a double register key was? I looked at the Ridenour, and I can see that it's more complex than any bass clarinet I've used (which are only the ones my school provides). Would I need/use the double register key? I'm still quite a novice player, so I'm not sure if it's best. Opinions? Hindrance vs. beneficial to learn to use? (I'm assuming it'll be good to get this model for the tuning slide too; I've never had one on a bass clarinet!)
Next, I'd also like to ask on opinions on neckstraps. Do you like them? Do they help you maybe play better, or is it just for comfort?
Also, I love Michael! He's such a funny person and is a great role model. I saw this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neKCvVMQ5Mw
And I was wondering if it would be wise to purchase the kit he featured (the one from musicmedic.com), but I'm not sure if I should since I've never tried to fix a bass clarinet before but having this kit may save me some money from getting it repaired because something won't play just because a screw is loose. Would it be okay to get this and learn to maintain my bass clarinet as such or just leave it to the experts?
Anyways, thank you so much! I appreciate the replies. You don't even know how excited I am to ask for a bass clarinet; my heart is practically bursting!
Hope to hear from you all soon! Thanks!
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-03-12 18:32
The double register key is automatic. You do not need to learn any new fingerings.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-03-12 20:06
Hey Banangerine,
Looks like you are off and running. Michael is very funny but has a tremendous amount of great advice.
On the strap, here is a thread that I started recently that will probably answer your questions. Personally, I use a harness and a peg; my fingers are free to do what they are supposed to do. Please note that there is some disagreement about this topic; read but you don't need to let any of the divergent views trouble you are this point.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=434370&t=434297
The tuneable neck is a must and you'll have no problems with the automatic double register key. If you end up with the Ridenour 925e you should note that although you can separate the upper and lower section for a 5-piece case, Ridenour is now supplying a one piece case so you can leave the two sections assembled. As a former HS band director, I always had the school get one piece bass clarinets so students did not have to deal with bridge keys.
Also, I use a one piece Protec case for my Selmer bass although I have a 5 piece case.
Good luck,
HRL
PS You do not need to get a repair kit right now; check the discussions about band directors/teachers showing their students how to make repairs. I have very strong opinions on this topic as you will see. You probably already have a small screwdriver and so key oil; just use it the same way as you do when checking over your clarinet.
Post Edited (2016-03-12 20:21)
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-03-13 06:02
Thanks! I'm gravitating more and more towards the Ridenour. Would any of you mind sending some sound files comparing the Ridenour to the Yamaha? I can't seem to find any decent ones. I prefer a darker tone than a bright one (which is why I switched from Bb to Bass, haha).
Also, would you please mind telling me what reed and thickness you use (for each one)? Honestly, I JUST learned that thickness is based on your mouthpiece, not only your skill and embouchure. I was extremely shocked that no one had told me this before!
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-03-13 07:04
kilo,
The horn I tried tuned (everything pushed in) at A=448.
Chris
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-03-13 13:47
Banangerine,
I believe you are over-thinking this. You may be approaching the point of "paralysis by analysis."
First order of business is to get an instrument that plays well and in tune, learn to make it work, then worry about bright or dark and the reed thickness later. You have a long way to go yet but in a year or so, you can begin to experiment with reeds.
Comparing sound files is very difficult. To demonstrate this, check out the Mike Lowenstern's ligature example. Could you tell the difference? He sounds great on everything; good players have that gift.
HRL
Post Edited (2016-03-14 16:26)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-04-01 08:51
Don't just walk away from the eBay Berkeley bass -- RUN. At that price, it will barely play at all. Notice that it has a single register key mechanism, with no vent on the neck. All the descriptive language is just hype. It's undoubtedly a Chinese knockoff of the low-end Vito, made by people who don't know and don't care about musical instruments.
Ken Shaw
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2016-04-02 20:06
I've looked at the Ridenour but can't comment on its sound nor fit and finish. I did read Dave Spiegelthal's excellent review of an earlier version of that bass and it raised some concerns. I will say that I contacted Ridenour Clarinets and spoke to Tom's son who is/was very helpful which is a real plus. You won't receive such personal service from another outlet.
With that said, I play the Yamaha YCL-221 which tunes to 440. The YCL-221ii tunes to 442. It has the simpler single register mechanism but plays well and I can play all of the repertoire that our community band plays. We play relatively demanding music from several genres and have a good band with many semi-professional members. I've received several compliments on my tone from respected band members. I'd be wary of the 221ii as I have to pull the neck out a half inch or more for tuning purposes with mine and think it may make it difficult to tune but it may be mouthpiece dependent. The advantages in my opinion are: quality construction and consistency, durability (the mechanism being single register vent requires adjustment infrequently), 5 piece breakdown for compact carrying and storage, relatively light weight due to the case construction and ABS is lighter than grenadilla, RESALE PRICE if you lose interest, and it uses rubber rings in place of cork in several locations which I thought was dubious when I purchased it but have turned out to be quite well designed and durable. I'd highly recommend the instrument for anyone to use up until the point that you are committed to buying a Selmer or Buffet professional model for serious money (for college majors or professional use)!
Regarding the strap, I use a BG and am very pleased with it.
Lastly, I'd buy a nice mouthpiece. I personally have had good results from Clark Fobes Nova Bass mouthpiece. It is reasonably priced in the realm of bass mouthpieces and has been a good upgrade. There are other excellent options but it is hard to find one at a good price.
Hope my comments are helpful.
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-04-19 04:58
Hi! I know it's been a while, but I've been really busy.
I've gone to a music store to test out the Ridenour (because of shipping, it's at the store to check for anything bent or loose, etc) and the other b.c. they have, the Jupiter 675N.
I tried the Jupiter and it was okay. The tone is better than the one I'm using from the school (LeBlanc something, I can't read the engravings well... "L60"?), but it felt weird in my hands, probably since it's new or whatever. It's kind of hard to speak a high G (the middle C fingering + register key, sorry my musical vocab isn't grand) but then again it's the same way for my current one so it's probably just I'm not that experienced at it yet and I just have to keep practicing.
Now I think for the Ridenour they were still repairing it as the lady at the front said she retrieved it from their repair area, and when I tried playing it, I just couldn't get anything to speak. I don't know if maybe I put something together wrong (there's a lot more rods in many places than the one I'm using, so maybe I put on the throat wrong or something? ...) and nothing would come out or just squeak. I'm coming back at the end of the week to try again though since I've read many satisfied reviews as of recently and I refuse to give up on this Ridenour.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-04-19 15:25
Banagerine,
I'm a little confused here; help me understand about the Ridenour bass you are referring to in your most recent post. Is this an instrument that you purchased directly for Tom Ridenour and is it a new 925e? If so, it should come from him and not need any repairs.
How did the music store people get involved and/or what's their role in having the instrument?
HRL
Post Edited (2016-04-19 18:39)
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-04-22 05:35
Yes it's a new 925e and I'm pretty sure the store directly purchased it from his site (I specified exactly the maker and what product I wanted). My parents wanted me to try out at least another bass clarinet so the music store has a Jupiter and offered to order the 925e for me. It must've needed at least a checkup since I live in California and the products are from Texas and must've been shipped. I honestly think I may have put it together improperly, probably not aligning the neck correctly. The repairman wasn't there though when I visited and the lady at the counter does not have very much experience with bass clarinets but the repairman will be there when I visit this weekend so we can make sure everything is good.
Post Edited (2016-04-22 05:37)
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Author: bassclgirl92
Date: 2016-04-22 07:49
I'd steer clear of the 221 II. That's my current horn. Plays well, but tuned more for European bands. Always sharp.
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-04-26 10:13
So, my 2nd testing. Well, I could play it now (Ridenour). Mostly.
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[WARNING: VERY LONG]
TL;DR: Jupiter plays fine, Ridenour F#, Bb, C# kind of airy on upper joint. Cannot get clear sound on low Eb, it sounds muted and cannot play it loud. Must pay more to change this stuff because apparently it's how the instrument was built, they suggested using a different mouthpiece and reed. The Ridenour didn't come with the mouthpiece so, I don't know if that would've worked better. I don't want to settle for the Jupiter because I like the Ridenour's sound and extra stuff, not sure if I should care about sound too much at this age and skill level (I'm pretty intermediate, I'm not great). I'm scared of not being able to fix the problems I have with the Ridenour but I still want to get it and really work with it to smooth these things out, but it's $2000+ of my parents' money. Help is appreciated.
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The F# and Bb and C# on the upper joint sounded kind of airy and the low Eb was quite hard to get out, only sounding quite muted, not able to play it very loud. I also squeaked more often than I usually do. Any ideas why? I don't usually have this problem with the one I'm borrowing from the school. The high notes played more easily than the one I have now or the Jupiter, but the part that covers the register key tone hole doesn't lift much which I'm just not sure why. It plays high notes fine but just I'm just worried it's not fixed or something since the lift is so miniscule (hopefully this made sense).
The low Eb is on the bell, so I THINK it's not closing completely and I don't know if I missed putting it together correctly (I do think I lined it up correctly though) because the repairman couldn't show up due to an emergency. The thing is, I had these problems although they said it played fine for them... They suggested trying out a different mouthpiece and reed. Will having the Ridenour mouthpiece, since it's made for this instrument, magically make it sound these notes? :/
The A and register key on the upper joint is pretty stiff as well as the G on the lower. I'd have to pay extra to get it looser because I don't like it too much (for low G sometimes I forgot to press down harder to close the hole so I'd squeak pretty bad; how embarrassing). [they said my problems were inherent to the instrument? I don't know... tell me why I can't get the Eb to actually not sound forced and muted and quiet and why some notes sound airy then... it was fine on the Jupiter and my current one.... And apparently your repairman said it played fine, explain?? I'm just kind of pissed, sorry)
Also, the Ridenour didn't come with a mouthpiece for some reason. (???) If I get it, any thoughts on the Clark Fobes Debut? I heard it's pretty cheap ($) but really good quality. I tried the Vandoren B40 but it felt narrow and small in my mouth so I didn't really like it. I'm also using Rico 3's and testing's coming up soon so I don't know about trying out a new reed brand. I might though, Ricos thin out pretty quickly though I'm using a 3.
I don't know, I feel like I'm in a dilemma and just kind of a little annoyed that they're so eager to sell me the Jupiter. I mean, I know you want to sell stuff and make money, but I am really looking forward to this Ridenour. I don't know if I should just settle for the Jupiter since it's already ready but settling for a second and giving up on this would sucks. The only reason I'd get it is because it's easy to play on and ready to go. The thing is, I just love how the Ridenour sounds (The ABS resin of Jupiter can sound kind of harsh and almost metallic?? sometimes?? its sound kind of reminds me of a regular Bb clarinet which I don't prefer). Should I care so much? I'm only a sophomore, do I really need to care about these differences in sound?
Sorry for this super long typical sounding teenage rant, but this is basically my case right now. I'd like to have the Ridenour and work with it, but it would suck if I couldn't play it well and my parents paid for it and regretted it. It's just with an instrument with all this extra stuff and at this price and I really do believe the quality is great, I'd hate to lose this opportunity. (probably just going to get them to check on the Eb and airy notes, worry about stiff keys later since they're still playable; I just feel like a really pushy customer at this point...)
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Also, Hank, thank you so much for your advice. It's really helped me with this process. Being serious about buying a brand new instrument is a completely new experience for me and your guidance has been greatly appreciated.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-04-26 16:43
Hey Banangerine.....
I've had my Ridenour 925e for just over a month now. I love it. I'm in a 75+ member community band (returning to playing after MANY years of absence). I researched bass clarinets for HOURS upon hours. I was prepared to pay $6K+ for a used Eb horn; I gained a lot of good information from this blog.
I "met" Hank on this blog who suggested I check out Tom Ridenour's horns, which I did. After comparing the cost and features of used horns to Tom's new horns, I thought for the price difference and getting a new horn... this isn't rocket science. (It took me awhile to get past my belief from years ago that a clarinet isn't "real" unless it's grenadilla wood).
My first impression was how easily it played over the break... break? what break? I could zip up and down the scales on this horn unlike having to wrestle a Selmer USA student model (which was loaned to me).
I, too, had a few "issues" when my horn arrived. I complained about my low B# sounding stuffy. A huge advantage is Tom Ridenour is very available to help out with any minor adjustments, questions, and suggestions. He talked me through minor screw adjustment which helped my low B tremendously. I still heard a bit of stuffiness so I asked my teacher to pop his MP onto my horn and play it for me. I was astounded at the tone and clarity of the horn. When he played the low B, it's sounded perfectly in tone with no hint of "stuffiness". He explained that with all horns, it's difficult to "hear" yourself play.... you don't hear it as others do on the other side of the MP..... I do have a couple of keys which are a bit stiffer than others, but I've adapted and don't even think about them any longer.
I'm so impressed with the horn, I talked to Ted (Tom's son who handles the business end of the operation) and have made arrangements to upgrade my horn to the low C model.
I'm certainly not a professional, like many on this blog, but wanted to add my 2 cents, for what it's worth. Chris, Hank, and other on this site were very helpful in my decision making process.... I thank you all again!
Phil
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-04-26 17:16
I think you need some help from a local person who can play bass clarinet. Even if you had to paid for a "lesson" for them to try out bass clarinets at the store to see if their observations are the same as yours.
Getting the same kind of information across a forum is not possible IMO.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-04-27 07:33
Banangerine and Tucker,
I'm happy to have been able to assist you with advice. But as I have said to others "you need to make the final call on any purchase."
In Banangerine's case, my take is you are on the right track but with the 925e, there are several additional bridge keys that need to be properly aligned during assembly. If these are not correctly positioned, you will have playing problems. On the low Eb, press the Eb key and look to see if the pad on the bell is closing fully. If not, turn the bell a little bit. Also, I purchased my 925e without a MP. I do not know what you are using but getting the right combo of reed and MP can sometimes be tricky. I believe that you need a clarinet teacher to help you get things correct. But maybe the tech is a clarinet player? And Mojo's advice is right on.
I also imagine that the Jupiter is a one-piece instrument with the low Eb on the body rather than the bell. Thus you do not have the alignment issue. When I was a HS band director, I always bought one-piece instruments as students are often careless. Final word, if you are not happy with either instrument, don't buy it.
In Tucker's case, we do not often hear ourselves accurately. I always play into a wall on sax or bass clarinet to see about the sound.
For clarity with the rest of the BB members, I use my Selmer Model 30 as my primary bass with the 925e (bought before I discovered the Selmer) as an excellent backup. More importantly, I receive no compensation of any kind from Ridenour Clarinet Products. I just like Tom, his instruments, and his and Ted's customer service.
HRL
Post Edited (2016-04-27 07:35)
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Author: banangerine
Date: 2016-05-03 06:58
Well, in the end, my dad decided that it wasn't worth paying for these "adjustments" and will buy the Jupiter. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed going through this but it is his money, and the Jupiter was still alright so...
I'm just grateful to get my own instrument that is new. Hopefully when I get older I can sell it (since Jupiter is pretty well known) and buy something even better. Anyways, thank you for all the help, I greatly appreciate it. Look forward to me asking around again soon for tips, since I'm determined to make it into my Wind Ensemble!! Working on my etude and sight reading
THANKS!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-05-03 15:56
Hi Banangerine,
Thanks for the update. Good luck with your Jupiter.
However, I am confused as to why the music store was involved in this deal in the first place. I have always worked directly with Ridenour and there has never been a need to pay for any "adjustments' on a brand new instrument.
Something is very strange here. If the music store is now the seller on some arrangement with Ridenour, the store should cover any tweaking needed on delivery. I'm scratching my head!
HRL
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-05-03 17:46
I agree with Hank. Something sounds odd here. I'm assuming Banangerine went to a music store and said he wanted to by a bass and voiced interest in the Ridenour... they purchased it directly from Ridenour.... then tried to sell it to Banangerine.
I'm not very experienced in shipping any musical instrument, however I would assume there COULD be some adjustments with any brand after shipping. I had an issue with my low B sounding stuffy when I received my new 925e from Ridenour. I was given Tom Ridenour's cell phone number for instructions for a simple adjustment (turning a screw a quarter turn). Turns out the other two issues I had w/ my new horn were issues w/ my embouchure, since I'm a returning player from years back. I had the teacher I'm working with pop his mouthpiece onto my horn and the "issues" were no longer there.
That being said, I've been incredibly impressed with the availability and assistance of Tom and Ted (son) Ridenour with my new horn. I couldn't be happier.
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