 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Khefren Sackey
Date: 2016-04-06 00:56
I've working on this piece that requires I tongue 16ths at 120 bpm. Any tips on how to develop a faster tongue?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-04-06 01:42
...slow down the metronome and slur notes from the passage as well as articulate them.
"Slur two tongue two" https://youtu.be/RVBod2kPAnc?t=5s
Slowly pick up the pace of the metronome, no faster than you can articulate.
Then slur 1 and tongue 3, etc.
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These are generic answers, given my being unaware of how fast you tongue now.
Longer term solutions would be to learn how to double tongue---although I think most pros would say that 120 16th notes is a single tongue skill.
This won't come overnight!
...hard for me to teach tonguing over the internet, also check out some good youtube videos on this.
Post Edited (2016-04-06 01:49)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-06 02:16
I'm not a pro that puts a speed on what should be possible. Some tongues out there are just slow......mine included. I think I get to about 116 on constant 16ths and that's pushing it.
Double tonguing may be the only answer. You should approach that slowly at first as well, but then it will open up new vistas for you in short order. One good video to look at is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoInFr4b8kQ
Remember, technique is there to make music making easier (and more fun).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-04-06 02:20
Khefren -
Almost anyone should be able to tongue 16ths at 120. It's standard march tempo. If you're having trouble, you're definitely doing something wrong.
Tell us more. Do you put the tip of your tongue down behind your lower teeth and push your whole tongue forward ("anchor tonguing")? If so, you should change to "tip-to-tip" tonguing, where the tip of the tongue is free and touches the reed at or near the tip, with the area just slightly back of the tongue tip.
Also, remember that the tongue doesn't start the tone. It simply releases the tip of the reed so that it can begin to vibrate because of the pre-existing air pressure.
Hold the bell on or between your knees, finger low C and put your right hand on your belly just below your ribs. Then tongue quickly. If you feel yourself making a puff of air on each note, you are limiting your speed by using the large, slow abdominal muscles. Get used to blowing smoothly and using your tongue alone.
Also, watch yourself in a mirror to make sure that your jaw isn't "chewing" as you tongue and that your throat doesn't move. Your Adam's apple shouldn't bob up and down. Your tongue should be independent of everything else.
Play low C, position your tongue just behind the reed and flick it up, BUT MISS the reed tip. Then very gradually move your tongue forward until the tip barely brushes the reed. When you can do this reliably, play a 5-note scale, C-D-E-F-G. Your objective is to make the smallest possible movement.
Give this a try and come back in a week to tell us your results. If you're still having trouble, there are other exercises. If you're getting better, there are other more advanced exercises.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-04-06 02:38
Ken Shaw wrote:
> Khefren -
>
> Almost anyone should be able to tongue 16ths at 120. It's
> standard march tempo. If you're having trouble, you're
> definitely doing something wrong.
But that's a half note at 120 beats per minute. Eight 16ths per beat. Or are you talking about quarter notes at 120, so 4 16ths to a beat?
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-04-06 02:39
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> Then slur 1 and tongue 3, etc.
>
Huh? Was this tongue-in-cheek?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-06 03:41
Ken, I don't want to be harsh, but we should avoid "articulation shaming."
There is no minimum that makes you a great player. Further more a player may be able to tongue like a lizard and still play like crap. Musicianship is more important than tongue speed. I do concede that faster tonguers have a greater advantage out of the gate, but as I said (and demonstrated in the videos), one can compensate for this (double tonguing isn't just for playing like machine gun).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2016-04-06 05:29
Karl..meant to say that in a passage that you can't articulate in its entirety at a certain speed, start slurring more than tonguing, and seek to change that ratio over time with practice.
..never tried sluring with literal "tongue in cheek" though ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
...I limit myself to only the metaphorical verison of same while [trying] joking
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-04-06 05:31
It was the slur one, tongue three that I was having trouble with. How do you slur one note?
Karl
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2016-04-06 05:42
My tonguing got a lot better when I realized I didn't HAVE TO use the exact tip of my tongue. I use slightly lower than the tip and in this position in able to have better speed and control.
Fernando
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-04-06 06:42
I've developed a good enough tongue (sustained 16ths at 120, but can burst one or two beats at around 132, just can't sustain it yet) and have gotten more relaxed with it, so I'll try to point out what has helped me to get quicker and how I continue to work on it.Quote:
Do you put the tip of your tongue down behind your lower teeth and push your whole tongue forward ("anchor tonguing")? If so, you should change to "tip-to-tip" tonguing, where the tip of the tongue is free and touches the reed at or near the tip, with the area just slightly back of the tongue tip. while I don't anchor tongue, I wouldn't focus TOO much on the words "tip to tip". It doesn't have to be the VERY tip of your tongue. But somewhere towards the front part of your tongue must CONSISTENTLY touch the tip of the reed. Use the same part of your tongue every time.Quote:
My tonguing got a lot better when I realized I didn't HAVE TO use the exact tip of my tongue. I use slightly lower than the tip and in this position in able to have better speed and control. Yup. Perfectly fine, if it works for you. Quote:
Also, remember that the tongue doesn't start the tone. It simply releases the tip of the reed so that it can begin to vibrate because of the pre-existing air pressure. This is key to remember. Also, realize that you do NOT have to exert a lot of pressure on the reed to stop it from vibrating.
Watch this clip on youtube starting here.... https://youtu.be/4ytdtPIdmG0?t=2m41s
So what he's showing is that tonguing is "stopping the reed from vibrating" and releasing the reed and ALLOWING it to vibrate is what make the note sound. He also explains that you do not need to put a lot of pressure to stop it from vibrating. Practice it VERY lightly (to the point where you can still feel the reed buzz and "tickle" your tongue held against it) and learn that it only takes a LITTLE more force for it to stop buzzing against your tongue.
Also, when you're playing any long tones, slurs, well, anything, keep your tongue as CLOSE to the reed as possible. Once again, you can start with that light "buzz" against your tongue and then just pull back a hair. This way you're slowing re-training your tongues natural "open" position to be EXTREMELY close the natural "closed" position (open and closed referring to the reed being allowed to vibrate, and the reed NOT being allowed to vibrate).
Quote:
Hold the bell on or between your knees, finger low C and put your right hand on your belly just below your ribs. Then tongue quickly. If you feel yourself making a puff of air on each note, you are limiting your speed by using the large, slow abdominal muscles. Get used to blowing smoothly and using your tongue alone. THe exercise in the video linked in my post is a good one for this. It'll help show whether you have a "puff" of air or not. Another good exercise I worked on was (and I caution you as my teacher did me, do NOT do this exercise for more than a minute or so a day as it is reinforcing BAD habits), is to PURPOSEFULLY leak air out of the corners of your mouth while tonguing (literally, only for ONE minute a day, if even). Just enough that you can hear and feel the "hiss" of leaking air while playing a whole note. Then try tonguing a scale. If that "hiss" doesn't stay consisent, then your airstream is not consistent. If you hear or feel the hiss changing pitches or velocities, then you are in some way trying to use your diaphragm to help you tongue. This exercise is good to force you to learn to continue to expel air a the same rate, even when you're tonguing or doing other stuff with your fingers.
And above all, work slowly, but focus a LOT on using minimal tongue movement and being consistent as to where you hit the reed, and with what part of the tongue. When I was tonguing slowly (and even today, when I tongue slowly), it's very easy for me to pull my tongue much further back, or put much more pressure on the reed, because, well, I have a lot more time between notes and it won't affect my timing. But as articulation becomes more rapid, it's MUCH easier to keep a consistent airstream, and use as little range of motion as possible between tongue on, and tongue off the reed. It makes tonguing MUCH easier.
Alexi
PS - It doesn't come in a day. But take that metronome and put it up one click a week, and in a year, you'll be 52 bpm faster than you were were you started. And then tonguing will be the LEAST of your worries!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-04-06 07:00
Alexi,
Thanks for a great post on how to articulate and the very helpful video from "Earspasm." In tonguing, lightness and riding the tongue on the air column are the key. Tension and force will never do the trick. Earspam's advice to hold back and push the tongue forward only enough to stop and start the tone are right on target.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-04-06 08:12
Paul -
I don't think I was "articulation shaming." The questioner wrote that (s)he was having trouble tonguing 16ths at 120, and I asked whether (s)he was anchor tonguing. If so, I said switching to tip-to-tip might improve things. I also gave a number of other tests and exercises.
Ken Shaw
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-04-06 09:00
Double tonguing can be a fine solution to lack of tongue velocity, but if the mechanics of single-tonguing are not secure to begin with it can just create a bigger mess. First things first.
The idea of "shaming" has spoiled discussions on this topic before. Might we just all assume the best of each other this time and get on with the business of helping each other to be as successful as possible?
Also it should be noted that are some fine players who anchor tongue, and that while it may not be the ideal way, those with uncommonly long or thick tongues are often left without any other practical options. Most of us are almost certainly better off NOT anchor tonguing, but it shouldn't be entirely dismissed out of hand.
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