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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-08 21:49
Been reading about sanding the back of reeds.
1. is to put the whole reed on a sheet of about 300 grit on glass and sand back and forth.
Q: won't this make the tip thinner even though your not putting finger pressure directly above the tip?
2. is to sand the back like above but leave the tip overhanging the edge of the sand paper not touching the tip at all.
Q: won't this create kind of a step when your trying to make the back flat?
Thanks!
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-08 23:16
1. Yes, sanding over the tip will thin the tip no matter where you apply the pressure. Whether or not you want this depends on why you're sanding to begin with.
2. There could be a slight step created. You aren't taking much off, really. When I've done this, I've never noticed anything that suggests this is causing a problem.
Karl
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-08 23:33
Thanks Karl, got it. One question about #1, will thinning the tip lower the reed strength to any noticeable degree?
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-09 00:05
Whenever you remove material, you weaken the reed.
I've taken the "hanging off the edge approach" to treating the flat side of reeds (when and if I ever do this). But I had given up on sandpaper a LONG time ago. The only thing I used for years was a sharpening stone. This way you are guaranteed not to take off too much material. The process is really more akin to "polishing" the flat side.
The more recent step I took was the Vandoren "glass thingy" that came with a reed rush like glass wand. Though I can't even tell you when it was that I had used it last (that was a while ago).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-12-09 00:57
I would think that 300 grit is a bit coarse for reed work, 400 and 600 would be my choices.
Yes sanding the tip will reduce it's strength but by very little if finger pressure is kept further up the vamp.
Using a gentle reed rotating motion with the tip overhanging the edge will not cause a step as you are constantly changing the exact area of edge contact so creating an infinitesimal ramp, in fact this is one of the techniques suggested by Vandoren for using their glass block.
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-09 01:30
I have viewed videos that show using 220 and 240 grit and sliding reeds backward away from tip along the paper and going own to maybe 600 grit, but I thought that tis was to fix some problem and you just didnt sand all the time only to be doing it Then I saw where the reed was soaked for a few minutes the rubbed down vamp with fingernail to seal, and on flat side and heel to polish and seal using flat surface like back of a clipboard. This was more a preparation and after - play procedure I think. I wondered about the above things also and would like to read more about it.
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Author: Something Music
Date: 2015-12-09 02:35
>1. is to put the whole reed on a sheet of about 300 grit on glass and sand back >and forth.
>Q: won't this make the tip thinner even though your not putting finger pressure >directly above the tip?
Yes. As other people said, 300 is way too coarse for de-warping the backs of reeds, which is why you should get 600 or so, which is what I use.
>2. is to sand the back like above but leave the tip overhanging the edge of the >sand paper not touching the tip at all.
>Q: won't this create kind of a step when your trying to make the back flat?
Possibly: use a figure 8 motion instead of a straight back and forth. This will prevent any 'step' on the reed and also won't go against the grain of the reed as much.
Also the goal of sanding the back of the reed isn't really to remove material, but to remove just barely enough to make the flat side of the reed level, which helps increase responsiveness among other things.
>Thanks Karl, got it. One question about #1, will thinning the tip lower the reed >strength to any noticeable degree?
Kind of. Technically, the strength of the reed is based off of the heart of the reed and not the tip. However, taking material off the tip can change how the tip vibrates, affecting how the reed will play and potentially ruining the balance at the tip.
-TJ
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-12-09 03:06
I kind of think of myself as a better than average reed guy. I avoid sanding the tips, because most of the time the reed problems are behind the tip area. Often the tips are only 0.006" thick, about the thickness of 2 human black hairs. Not much! Blond hairs are thinner, so that would equal about 3 blond hairs. I know what some of you may be thinking, that's really thin, or Bob is nuts! Probably both. A measuring tool I really like are called calipers. You can pick these up from about $20 to $500. Buy the $20 ones at a place called Harbor Freight. Order online. These are also very good for measuring the rails of the reeds, making sure that the side rails of the reeds are balanced. Get the 6 inch ones.
http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-digital-caliper-with-sae-and-metric-fractional-readings-68304.html On sale right now for $15.
I usually use 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper. 400 grit is OK too, if the reeds are a bit on the hard side, or if you plan on clipping the reed after sanding it. I think reed clippers are a great tool to have. So if you decide to sand the whole reed, tip included, using a tiny nick reed clipper will help bring back the thickness of the tip and also keep the reed from playing too soft.
One of the best reed books I've ever read is by Fred Ormand. It's very much worth buying and the price is very reasonable.
These clippers and the caliper, along with Fred Ormand's book will surely solve a lot of reed issues. Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-09 04:57
Again, thank you all for a wealth of information. I copy and paste all of it in my notebook. No problem in the needed supplies, I turn writing pens of exotic woods and acrylics so have packages of sandpaper down to 2000 grit for shaping and polishing the barrels. And thanks to my machinist dad he left me with all sorts of precision tools.
Bob, interesting, last night I was measuring one of my reeds and the very tip is right about .006. I was trying to see if I can measure the "ears" on both sides and found it's rather difficult to get a accurate reading because of the reed taper.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2015-12-09 18:12
I have a piece of a nice sharp bastard file mounted on block of wood for smoothing the back of reeds. It was given to me by a teacher and is labeled "Warp-B-Gone" and made by R and M Enterprises. The web page listed returns server not found. Seems to me I was supposed to post a photo of it ages ago and never did. I'll dig out the camera today.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Filettofish
Date: 2015-12-09 20:04
When removing cane from the table of the reed, my only objectives are to flatten and polish the cane. A flat bastard file is fine enough that it won't remove the excess of cane which sandpaper can - rather, the file will remove a small amount of cane with a few strokes, an appropriate amount to give a reed that "shine" on the back which comes from matting down the fibers of the cane. If the polish is not universal across the table, that is an indicator that the table is warped in some capacity; this can be remedied by running the reed across the file a few more times.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-12-09 20:59
I agree that a bastard file works very well for this purpose and does not take off of the vamp area if you only put pressure on the bark portion of the reed. I have found it to be the best solution for me.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2015-12-09 21:54
Attachment: IMGP1380.JPG (166k)
Here is a photo of my Warp-B-Gone
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-10 00:44
Thanks bill for the photo, that file looks like the one they use for auto body fender work in taking down Bondo.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2015-12-10 19:19
I've been trying to find a cheaper version of that file. Isn't that just a curved cut file? I don't know if there is a more accurate name for this type of file.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2015-12-10 19:36
What works better for me than sanding, is to use a chatter-resistant (thick-bladed) oboe reed knife, with a very straight edge and well sharpened, to scrape the bottom of the reed. Quick and effective.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-12-10 20:57
I believe that I have seen these files listed as auto body files or a flat mill cut body file
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2015-12-11 16:21
Do not sand the bottom of the reed for any reason. What it will accomplish is to make the reed much less "beefy" in tone due to the heart being sanded also.
I heat up the bottom of the reed by making circular motions on a sheet of paper (computer paper, etc) which burnishes the bottom, and gives it a glass like surface. That doesn't take any material off of the bottom of the reed, and seals the pores so that moisture doesn't go directly into the heart of the reed underneath.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-12-11 17:27
Before something as drastic as sanding or filing the reed, try polishing the flat side on a sheet of typing paper. This seem to make a real difference on reeds that just seem to have something funny in the response.
IMHO, it is best to avoid sanding ... it thins the tip in a non uniform way, usually. I have found that a very light "figure 8" sanding pattern on maybe 400-1000 grit sandpaper seems to do the most uniform sanding. Turn the reed around 180 degree for 1/2 the passes.
The Legere reeds don't like this type of sanding, and are very tough and resist sandpaper more than cane.
My 3 cents ...
Tom
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2015-12-12 18:55
I never touch the flat side. It does no good and usually causes more problems than it's supposed to solve.
See Ridenour's video on reeds or my previous posts on the subject, if you're interested in knowing why.
(Couldn't resist being heretical again.)
B.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-12-13 08:26
Like most other people I also agree in NOT sanding the back. I usually just get my reed geek and use that to flatten out the back.
Post Edited (2015-12-14 05:51)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-12-13 09:54
Why do the backs of reeds warp? I've never had (or never noticed) this. I have had the tip warp, but that's surely not the same thing, and it goes away once the reed is moistened enough.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-12-13 18:14
I forgot about this. The backside of wet dry sandpaper, the black sandpaper kind of has a waxy feel to it. If the bottom of the reed is so warped that the sound of the clarinet suffers and you are suffering with your embouchure trying to control the reed well sand it, file it, do whatever you like to do with the bottom of the reed and then use the back of the sandpaper to polish or a better word is to try and seal the reed with the waxy side of the sandpaper. Sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn't, but it's worth a try. The reeds do need to be wet so maybe too much built up of the waxy stuff kind of repels the moisture. If this happens you can always try lightly washing it off with water. I wouldn't sand it off.
Before sanding or filing the reed you can try rubbing the reed on te waxy side of the sandpaper first and see if anything happens. You will probably see where the reeds are warped.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-13 19:08
Philip Caron wrote:
> Why do the backs of reeds warp? I've never had (or never
> noticed) this. I have had the tip warp, but that's surely not
> the same thing, and it goes away once the reed is moistened
> enough.
Why reeds warp seems to be a point of dispute among single reed players, though I doubt if there's much debate in a lumber yard. When wood gets wet, it expands. When it dries, it contracts. If a board is wet throughout but lies on top of another board so only the top surface is exposed to air, it bends - warps - upward toward the drier surface. The bottom surface of a warped reed - the surface that should be flat - generally has a convex curvature running lengthwise.
You're right that the crinkling or waviness in the tip when you first wet a reed to play it isn't warpage - although it's related in that the cane along the tip isn't absorbing water evenly and some parts are expanding sooner than others. Once the area is thoroughly and evenly wet, the tip straightens out.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-12-13 20:09
Karl - I noticed that if after use I stored my reed in a flat-backed holder to dry, when next used the tip would warp a lot and require a lot of wetting to straighten out for play. I reasoned that there is probably different densities of longitudinal fibers in the typical reed (and they are visible held up to light, despite uniformity being wanted), and so denser regions would take longer to absorb and release moisture than less dense regions.
I decided that holding the reed against a hard flat surface while drying probably forces fibers out of alignment, at least until next wetting. And probably the alignment returns to normal upon next wetting - probably - but also it may take some time. I'm now wondering if this forcible misalignment can lead to the back warping.
Anyway, I stopped using the reed holder to dry the reeds. When I'm done playing, I wash them (I'm a washer) and lay them backside down on a paper tissue to dry. No force. To my mind this lets the drying proceed "naturally". I note that on next use, there's to my perception less tip warping than when I used the flat back holder.
This may all be delusional.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-13 21:26
Philip Caron wrote:
> ... I reasoned that there is probably different densities of
> longitudinal fibers in the typical reed (and they are visible
> held up to light, despite uniformity being wanted), and so
> denser regions would take longer to absorb and release moisture
> than less dense regions.
>
I think you have the right basic explanation for tip crinkle. But an actual longitudinal warp doesn't straighten out when you re-wet the reed. Hence all the different back-sanding and straightening techniques.
> I decided that holding the reed against a hard flat surface
> while drying probably forces fibers out of alignment, at least
> until next wetting.
From my limited experience with hobby carpentry and home building projects, I don't think you can "force" wood to do much of anything without quite extreme amounts of pressure nor can you prevent wood from changing if natural forces are leading it to change. IMO, the pressure put on reeds to hold them down by the flat glass holders I've seen doesn't come close to what it would take to stop a reed from warping or at least springing to the warped shape it "wants" to make when you remove the pressure. Again, IMO (others will argue differently) the best way to keep a reed from warping is not to create the conditions that encourage it to.
> Anyway, I stopped using the reed holder to dry the reeds. When
> I'm done playing, I wash them (I'm a washer) and lay them
> backside down on a paper tissue to dry. No force.
I think it works even better to dry them flat side up. The exposed cane in the vamp is still exposed to air because of its taper. The bark area is sealed in any case and doesn't allow much drying no matter which way the reed lies, but you still allow drying from both surfaces. Lying flat-side- backside?)-down even on a paper tissue (which is itself lying on something else more substantial) tends, I think (opinion - only anecdotal evidence, nothing scientific), still to limit or at least retard bottom-side drying.
> To my mind
> this lets the drying proceed "naturally". I note that on next
> use, there's to my perception less tip warping than when I used
> the flat back holder.
>
> This may all be delusional.
>
We all live with and act on our delusions every day. If it's a delusion, it's not a destructive one.
Karl
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-13 23:02
You people with the calipers: where are you measuring the reed tip? Across the end of the reed from side to side where the straight side ends and the curve begins, or some other way. Thanks.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-14 01:34
I've been unsuccessful getting a meaningful reading with calipers or dial indicator with a very small point because a reed tapers throughout.
You can measure a certain point on one ear but how do find exactly the same point on the other ear?
I haven't been able to do it, but probably doing it wrong. Need the more skillful to answer.
I've just been doing the tried and true turning the mpc from side to side while blowing.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
Post Edited (2015-12-14 01:37)
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-14 01:44
When I made this thread, in sanding the back I meant to polish the surface, it wasn't to correct any warping. Luckily I haven't had any warping whatsoever, not even a wavy tip.
After playing, I dip the reed, wipe it off and place it on two thin 1/16" rods of plastic to dry so air space all the way around the reed. It stays like that until next day. Of course I never go anywhere to need a case of any sort.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-14 02:25
knotty wrote:
> I've been unsuccessful getting a meaningful reading with
> calipers or dial indicator with a very small point because a
> reed tapers throughout.
>
> You can measure a certain point on one ear but how do find
> exactly the same point on the other ear?
>
If you want to spend the money, Ben Armato's PerfectaReed tool is made for this. See it at http://www.wwbw.com/Reed-Wizard-PerfectaReed-472741-i1437117.wwbw. It's designed to give you reference points both across and along the reed.
Karl
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-14 02:25
Do you do anything at all with a reed but wet and play, and only do this polishing, sanding, scraping, clipping, whatever, if and when reed performs poorly say 3-5 times on different days?
Or do you maybe polish and seal before and/or after each play?
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-14 03:08
BG I try different things, what I do today, may not do tomorrow, I just like to see what seems to work for me. Right now I'm trying back sanding just once the lifetime of the reed. I mainly play test and after I'm sure the reed needs adjusting, do a Dutch rush on the offending ear....haha! if that works, no more trying to adjust the ears. I just try to get the reed decent.
Quite often a reed may be "stuffy" then I take a very stout, short bladed knife and scrape fine dust shavings off of areas behind the heart. Doing this multiple times until I get a noticeable effect. Then that's it.
But I'm a eternal neophyte so not much lost with goof ups.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: knotty
Date: 2015-12-14 03:15
Karl, that Armato's tool is about what I did. I have almost the exact Starrett made dial indicator with a lathe magnetic mount. I laid out lines and even stop blocks to hold the reed in the same place but even moving the reed half the width of the lines makes a .001-.002 difference. Perhaps I need to not look for such small differences but learn to average readings side to side. A lot of tedious work.
Think maybe play testing by turning the mpc and Dutch rushing may be more my lazy speed.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
Post Edited (2015-12-14 03:16)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-12-14 04:16
knotty wrote:
> Think maybe play testing by turning the mpc and Dutch rushing
> may be more my lazy speed.
>
No argument about that from me. I have a PerfectaReed and have found it useful in understanding a little about reed design and general characteristics of particular reed models that were not necessarily what I expected. I don't know what Ben Armato meant the tool to be used for, but play testing for balance is always going to be more to the point. After all, if thickness were the determining factor of reed strength (and balance), all reeds (within a model line) would be the same strength and most would be balanced right out of the box, because they're all cut to the same dimensions. You can't measure density or flexibility with a dial gauge.
Karl
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