 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-01-09 06:08
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A few years ago I was given a set of R13's from the widow of a clarinetist.
The Bb and A had both been retrofitted with plateau keys in the upper joint and longer LH pinky keys to accomodate the left hand injury he had suffered late in life.
The tech work was elaborate and permitted him to play clarinet in his later years.
Photos attached.
...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-01-09 13:25
Difficult to see in the photos is the new raised tone hole insert for the left hand third finger.
...GBK
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-01-09 14:03
Do you know who the technician was who accomplished these modifications? The work looks excellent.
Susan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-09 14:49
Although the person doing the conversion could have retained the long Bb if they made the mechanism like a Leblanc basset horn or alto clarinet, though if the player could do fine without it and this keywork gave them more ease and more time to enjoy playing, then that's what really counts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-01-09 20:29
ohsuzan wrote:
> Do you know who the technician was who accomplished
> these modifications? The work looks excellent
The repair modifications were done by Tom Wheeler.
...GBK
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2010-01-10 18:05
I would be very curious to play a clarinet with these modifications. I bet playing over the break would be easier. Looks like excellent work.
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-01-10 20:06
Well I have two Vito clarinets. One Vito is open key and one is a full plateau. I can tell no difference is the tone, pitch or any other feature you can hear. The thing about the plateau tho` is that I can play flat out at almost any speed, if I want to, and not get a squeek or missed note. The reason of course is that you don`t have to hit the key correctly to get it to seal.
I also play a lovely Yamaha CSG Custom but still use the plateau on tricky music in the band.
I think a lot can be said for the plateau when someone is just starting and is so discourged they want to give up. Why make it hard for them.
All clarinets have additional keys and bits to help in playing so why not something to ensure you don`t squeek and can close each key with ease?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-10 20:10
I tried an old Jaques Albert plateau clarinet and it didn't feel strange under the fingers for me - pretty much like an oboe d'amore or cor anglais.
It is possible to have full Boehm keywork or clarinets with the forked Bb mechanism with plateau keywork, and probably much easier to make the forked Bb mechanism with plateau keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2010-01-11 01:51
An old friend of mine, who'd played in more big-band sax sections than I've had hot dinners, had to trade in his R13 for a Noblet plateau model a few years back because of some sort of irreversible nerve damage in his left hand. The plateau model does the job, but he misses his R13. (I give him a lot of credit--housebound, taking care of his bedridden wife, he's still practicing alto & clarinet, playing along with the big-band cable channel.)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-01-11 12:56
My Selmer Eb alto has plateau keys. They don't feel strange. I forget they're different. The only problem with them probably isn't a problem for better musicians: in a carryover from playing the recorder, I have what's probably a rather bad habit of fudging the intonation or making certain note-to-note transitions easier on some clarinets by half-holing. Can't do that with plateau keys.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-02-24 01:04
Any ideas where new or used plateau key Bb clarinets can be purchased? Or contact info for whoever does modifications?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
Post Edited (2015-02-24 01:06)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-24 01:27
There's a plateau Noblet on the UK iteration of that auction site for GBP577.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-24 02:57
I like the feel of plateau keys on clarinets - I regularly service a Vito with full plateau keywork for a player with arthritis and it plays nicely for a plastic clarinet. I have opened up the ventings and fitted cork pads on the main action keywork so it's not stuffy at all. It doesn't feel alien to me considering how much oboe/cor playing I do and that I'm mainly a sax player, so if anything I prefer the feel of a plateau clarinet.
And you can do pitch bends on them just as easily using your embouchure as opposed to a finger gliss, as well as the 'Rhapsody gliss' as that can be done without sliding the fingers off the toneholes - when you get to upper register C#, take your thumb off the thumb tube (but still on the speaker key) and lip that note all the way up to top C.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-24 07:33
Two part question:
1) Why the desire for a Bis key on a clarinet if you can do a C# to D# chalumeau, or G#/A# clarion trill with the lowest right hand upper joint right side trill key, without having to move the left hand? Is it that the upper note on either trill isn't known for its great sound (not that, given the trill, people are doing much listening to either of the notes alone)
2) What if any downside accoustical issues etc. would there be to designing clarinets the way this one was retrofitted, such that if a finger does not cover a hole perfect, the note stil gets played (i.e. see saxophone.) It might it make life easier for players, no?
I know higher end flutes have holes in key pads that lower end flutes often dont. Is there an analogous principle at play here on clarinet?
Post Edited (2015-02-24 16:53)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-02-25 07:20
Quote:
Author: Jerry (---.dyn.embarqhsd.net - (CenturyLink) Lady Lake, FL United States)
Date: 2015-02-24 01:04
Any ideas where new or used plateau key Bb clarinets can be purchased? Or contact info for whoever does modifications?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
Clarinet Connexion - (The Villages Clarinet Ensemble)
The Villages Orchestra
Village Voices Orchestra
Post Edited (2015-02-24 01:06) lohf and pfeiffer. I've played their plateau clarinets and they play very well.
They can sell you a new one with plateau keys or retrofit plateau keys on your horn.
They had an r13 green line last time I saw them and it played very very well. Trying to see if there's a way I can work it out so our band has them for outdoor missions since we march in up to 32 degree weather, and sometimes even below that. Brrr!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-02-25 16:37
Alexi -
At West Point, they issued us thick cotton (almost felt) gloves with the fingertips cut off, which gave little cold protection. They also issued us thin cotton gloves with vinyl fingertips, which were only a little warmer.
I ended up using Army-issued knit white wool gloves with the vinyl-tipped ones pulled over. I couldn't play at all with numb fingers, but the double combination worked, although it took me a few minute to get used to playing.
I remember an honor guard for a visiting 3-star general when it was 15 degrees and the wind was whistling down from Canada. He arrived 20 minutes late, saluted and shook hands all around, chatted for 10 minutes and then conducted an inspection. Trombone slides and trumpet valves froze, and half the clarinetists couldn't play at all.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-02-25 17:10
Thanks, Alexi. I emailed them with an inquiry: New, used, or retro fit an R-13.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-27 12:40
I have a problem with carpal tunnel syndrome, mainly in the right hand. It's aggravated by an old neck injury and I'm advised that while carpal tunnel surgery will help it is unlikely to completely eliminate the problem. Recently it has got to the point where I can no longer rely on my r/h fingering to be where it should be. I'll have surgery in a few weeks, but in the meantime I've just bought a Vito plateau clarinet on EBay. It looks to be in good order and I can fix anything that needs fixing. It will be interesting to see how it works out. Both bands that I play in have busy music programs coming up and I'd hate to have to miss out on them, so I do hope this works. I'll let you know.
Tony F.
Post Edited (2015-02-27 16:16)
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-02-27 21:01
Thanks, Tony.
In my case its a pinched nerve in the left elbow that has degenerated the muscle, strength and coordination in the left hand. I also expect to have surgery in the next few weeks.
What clarinet(s) have you played before your carpel tunnel got to this point?
There is another plateau Vito on ebay I'm considering. And if it doesn't work out as hoped, it could always be sold without any painful loss.
Please let me know how yours plays - intonation, etc.
Seeing that you're from Australia makes me want to have a steak on the barbie.
Jerry
Jerry
The Villages, FL
Post Edited (2015-02-27 21:09)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-28 04:01
Hi Jerry,
Interesting, the one I've bought comes from your state. It won't be with me for a couple of weeks, so I'll just fumble on until it arrives. Buffet keywork doesn't work very well for my shovel-sized hands, so recently I've been alternating between a lovely old B & H Imperial heavily tweaked and a Bliss. The Bliss is the better instrument in terms of tuning, but the keywork is flimsy and requires constant adjustment. The Imperial sounds better and is built like a brick outhouse. The barbie is on tomorrow afternoon, drop in.
Tony F.
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-02-28 05:20
That Vito you bought was the one on eBay for $349 plus $14 shipping, right? That sounded like a good deal. I'll be looking for one like it. Let me know how it plays for you and if it needs any tweaking.
If I got on the plane right now I'd probably be too late. The following Saturday.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-28 06:48
Hi Jerry,
That's the one. I offered him $300 and he accepted the offer. Shipping costs to Oz come to $58 though. A couple of years back when there was a strong Oz dollar and a weak US dollar I could buy good instruments in the US for very moderate prices, but now the pendulum has swung the other way.
Tony F.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-28 17:29
Dave,
About your question "Why the desire for a Bis key on a clarinet if you can do a C# to D# chalumeau, or G#/A# clarion trill with the lowest right hand upper joint right side trill key, without having to move the left hand?"
You are not a sax player, right? As a doubler, having a BIS key on a clarinet would add some very nice fingering options for several passages that are hard to do with the sliver or a trill key. Most saxes have a BIS key.
Add an articulated C#/G# and numerous other fingerings come into play. One of my bass clarinets has this key and if you get into G or A concert for a show, many rapid passages are much easier. Most saxes have an articulated G#.
So you can see that for someone that is a doubler, the absence of a BIS on clarinet seems odd. And at times I catch myself trying to use an articulated C#/G#on clarinet and I do not have such a device.
HRL
Post Edited (2015-03-01 01:44)
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-03-12 00:37
Among those of you who have experienced a variety of clarinets, INCLUDING PLATEAU key clarinets, I have a few questions, seeking your advice:
I currently have an R-13 that I am unable to reliably play (hand problem). I am looking at 2 LeBlanc Normandy Vito plateau key clarinets, one wood and one ebonite.
What intonation and tonal differences are there generally between wood and ebonite in this brand of clarinet? Is there enough difference to warrant a 2X price difference?
What differences in tone and intonation might there be between a good playing R-13 and either of these plateau models?
I play in an orchestra and want to make sure I'm not throwing away $400 to $800 on something that will not pass muster. In other words, is it time to throw in the towel and admit the time has come for a different hobby, or might either of these plateaus be suitable for volunteer orchestra use? The wood plateau is at the very high end of my financial limit, unless I sold my R-13 which I don't want to do before I know whether I can resolve the hand issue, which may take a year or more.
Jerry
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-03-12 20:32
I've just received the plateau Vito that I mentioned above. It had an exciting trip to Oz, having got snowed in along the way. It's in excellent condition and needs no work. I found that it was a bit flat with the Yamaha C4 supplied, but tunes very well with my Vandoren A1 crystal or my M30.
I found the transition from conventional keywork to plateau keywork to be a non-event and completely seamless. The tone is a little brighter than I'm used to from my Imperial, but I had a spare barrel from a Bliss which is dimensionally similar and which darkens the tone slightly while improving the tuning.
I found that my r/h fingers slipped on the very slick plateau tops, so I've fitted some thin cork discs on to the top of the tops. Problem fixed. I've fitted it with a Ton Kooiman thumb-rest and given it a couple of hard workouts and so far I'm delighted with it. It enables me to continue to play despite the loss of sensitivity in my r/h index and ring fingers. Hopefully carpal tunnel surgery will alleviate this, but until then I can play as before. Maybe even better.
Tony F.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-03-13 02:06
Tony -
[I thought I'd never type that name again ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) ]. If, a everyone hopes, your surgery is successful, and you no longer need the plateau clarinet, please let me know.
Many thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-13 02:11
Jerry,
Don't bow to prejudice - if you want to play a plateaux clarinet in an orchestral setting, then do so if it offers you security and the ability to carry on with what you love doing.
Just because the 99.99% of orchestral players play standard ring key clarinets, that doesn't mean you have to suffer and struggle on with something you're having a tough time with. So pick the right instrument for you if it gives you many more years of playing.
I would go over to plateaux keyed clarinets if they offered them in full Boehm form - but the chances are if I wanted one, I would most likely convert one of my clarinets myself to suit my needs if I had to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-03-13 02:25
I got plugs for all the open holes on my (Haynes) flute. For me it plays just the same, though my flute repair genius said she had to increase the key heights slightly.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-13 02:38
I sometimes regret buying an open hole flute as I tried a closed hole of the same model (a Yamaha YFL-624 - mine's a YFL-674) and that was far more responsive. Also I find mine's more responsive on the low notes if I plug up the open holes with 7mm cork pads.
Reason being is I often have small cuts and nicks on my fingertips from catching them on needle springs, point screws, screwdriver, scalpel or razor blade nicks that will cause leaks, not forgetting fingerprints have a lot of voids themselves so a certain amount of pressure is needed to get a perfect seal. This is easily demonstrated by doing a suction test on a top joint that's been repadded and is air-tight, or a piece of plastic tubing with some holes drilled into it and closed at one end. Do a suction or a pressure test (with a mag machine) with dry fingers using light finger pressure, then repeat the same test with increased finger pressure or wet fingers and you'll see a significant improvement in the time it takes the vacuum to go or which one gets a better reading on the mag machine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: NewHorizons
Date: 2015-08-31 23:50
Hello Jerry
Phil Fields (aka:Phil Pedler) has done excellent work on the various Normandy/ Vito plateau clarinets I have sent him, both wood and resonite. Being a experienced performer himself (MM from NEC), his standards are very high and exacting. In the past, he has emailed me an intonation chart for each instrument delineating the intonation tendencies for each pitch.
I originally became interested in plateau clarinets due to one of our members experiencing playing challenges because of her arthritis. The first plateau Instrument I received back from Phil allowed her to play the entire range of the instrument. Both she and I were delighted with the results.
Best regards
Len Allman, Director
Catawba Valley New Horizons Band & Orchestra
Hickory NC
(Please give my regards to Ward Green next time you see him. I had the pleasure of working and getting to know him at the New Horizons Band Camp in Holland, Michigan earlier this summer. Tnx LA)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-09-01 04:27
A Vito plateau clarinet that I overhauled a while back had been used little but had never been set up well at all at the factory, This was surprizing as I expected otherwise.
One of my mentors, Glen Johnston, added a bis key to his clarinet but later removed it as he said it caused him to make some errors. He was an expert on repair as well as playing the saxophone.
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-11-03 21:23
Tony, how is it going with your plateau clarinet - I hope you still enjoy it and it is keeping you in the mix.
Here is the short version of my encounters with trying to find a good plateau.
I've tried two so far over the past couple of months. They both suffered from the low B and A being extremely stuffy. Did yours have any of those problems?
I noticed on the 2nd one I tried that the low G plateau key was a lot closer to the hole than the other keys. I've learned that since plateau keys don't leave as much breathing room as open key clarinets, it is essential for the keys to be raised somewhat higher above the body for the note to vent properly. Otherwise the stuffy sound results.
One way to overcome that problem is to use thinner pads. The latest instrument I tried had very thick pads. This, along with the too low keys added to the problem.
I also noted that there was a lot more resistance than on my R-13. I am told that is because there is greater reliance on the many more pads attempting to seal up the holes, doing not quite good a job as sealing with the fingers.
However, the place that sent me this plateau agreed to replace the thick pads with thinner Valentinos, and make needed key adjustments. I have not yet received the modded instrument back to try out again. I tried to attach the spec sheet from the repair tech who tweaked it-Mark is looking into it. It shows a huge difference in intonation and leakage correction from the new pads and adjustments.
I'll provide an update when I receive it in a few days.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
Post Edited (2015-11-03 21:28)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-11-04 07:27
Hi Jerry,
I had the carpal tunnel surgery about 6 months ago and I'd say it was about 75% successful. The surgeon tells me it may improve a little more but not much. The plateau Vito kept me playing without much difficulty and as soon as I had my hand unwrapped I was able to play my conventional instrument. I'm going to hang on to the Vito, because the left hand is going the same way and sometime up the track I'm going to have to get the left wrist done as well.
As to how it performs, it's a bit brighter than I'm accustomed to and there was some degree of stuffiness around the right hand. I opened up the venting slightly and that seems to have fixed that problem. Apart from that I'm quite impressed with it. As a relatively low-cost student-level instrument it punches above it weight, and the keywork is typical Leblanc, built like a battleship. I haven't found it to be particularly resistant, and tuning is quite good, although not up to R13 levels. (Most R13's, I've come across some real dogs.)
Tony F.
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-11-04 08:20
Tony,
I had my elbow surgery about 5 months ago. Still numb small two fingers on left hand and overall hand weakness. Doc says to give it another few months.
I'm looking forward to receiving the tweaked instrument tomorrow and see if there is any significant improvement from the thinner pads and adjustments that were made.
Bet it feels good to get back to your original instrument. But it was good having something that worked pretty well in the meantime.
Take care. I'll post after some testing.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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