 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-05-30 22:09
It's my feeling that you can only truly develop "a sound" with the dutiful rehearsals of ONE fine conductor and her/his vision. The guest conductor route leaves you with an amorphous vision.
I would hope Valery Gergiev is on some list somewhere. He is the ONLY conductor I've heard in the last 30 years that bothers to even HAVE an interpretation (whether you like it or not is not even the point - too many conductors are afraid to have an opinion these days, and it sounds like it).
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-05-31 00:13)
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2015-06-03 09:53
I just truly hope it isn't Thielemann. He's great at what he does but not the direction the Berlin Phil should be going imo. They have become somewhat of the "modern" orchestra and I like it that way.
Fernando
Post Edited (2015-06-03 09:54)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-04 00:09
I just listened to Thielemann and Vienna performing Beethoven 7, and I have to agree with you (though probably for totally different reasons).
Of course I compare with Berlin from the late 70s under Karajan. Just taking the Allegretto (slow mvt), I can't believe how noisy Thielemann let things get in the first pronounced fortissimo. It was a veritable "free-for-all." I just read the perfunctory bio of Karajan. In it a music critic leveled a criticism against Karajan for his performances (and recordings) being too "formulaic." I think the only formula Karajan had was the pre-eminance of the melody AT ALL TIMES, and of course, clarity, clarity, clarity. The Karajan version of the Beethoven becomes boisterous as well but there is no question what the important voice is even at this point. Later, as the oboe, flute and bassoon take up the main melody there is some playful writing in the strings where sections toss arpeggios back and forth. To Thielemann it is ok for this jocularity to take over the moment. You can certainly make it out in the Karajan rendering but the melody (as it should) takes precedence.
There is a YOUTUBE video somewhere of Karajan in has waining years interviewing an injenue soprano. In it she turns down an obvious invitation to his Easter Festival due to a prior commitment. He responds by politely remarking that many conductors allow the accompanying ensemble to play too loud, causing the singers to sing louder, resulting in lost years from their careers. I think that little moment defined Karajan's interpretive outlook quite well.
Where are today's wonderful conductors?
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-06-04 02:24
"Where are today's wonderful conductors?"
Gergiev, Harnoncourt, Santi, Antonini, Haitink, Nelsons, Welser-Möst, Dohnanyi, Franck, Petrenko, Altinoglu, Hengelbrock, Jurowsky, Minasi, Janssons, Mehta, Fischer...
...to name a few.
Aren't they wonderful enough for you?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-04 04:32
Furtwangler, Reiner, Munch, Celibidache, Toscanini, Karajan.......
.........not with us anymore.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-06-04 06:43
Paul, what about these older conductors do you prefer to the younger ones? (Though it's really "younger"--Haitink, for example, was born in 1929, meaning he overlaps with much of your list.)
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2015-06-04 09:22
Perhaps he feels older conductors have specific styles and interpretations that they worked towards while many conductors today sort of out everything together and let the orchestra do as it will for the most part. This isn't exactly true, however it can sound as though it's true. Thielemann with the Vienna on Beethoven's 7th is a good example of this as Paul pointed out. There just isn't any "interpretation" to be heard in it.
I'd like to add that Nelsons and Gergiev would be my top picks.
Karajan is my favorite amongst the oldies.
Fernando
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-04 15:34
Very much on the money with that Fernando.
We recently posted a Robert Marcellus sound recording of a master classes and I recall him saying,"whatever you do..... phrase; phrase badly but phrase." Of course he meant the word "phrase" in the active verb sense of "do SOMETHING in terms of movement from note to note."
As a student I sat through a performance of Beethoven's Fantasia for Piano Chorus and Orchestra played by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra under Sir Georg Solti. Now the piece is a little stilted to begin with (we don't hear that performed very often perhaps for that very reason), but I recall one point where the orchestra was literally just laying down one note after another like brick layers. I wanted to stand up in the middle of that presentation and scream. It actually took some self control to keep myself seated!
Ever since then I try not to waste my time listening to "interpretations" that are merely just 'readings' of a piece of music.
It firstly takes FORETHOUGHT on the part of the director (no matter who she/he is) coming into a rehearsal to create the proper balance and dynamic contrasts (and ALL the other sonic possibilities you have available in a full orchestra) that make up a well written piece of music in such a way that it brings the work to life both as an accurate representation of the composers wishes and a truly organic piece of sonic art that has its own life.
THEN, you need rehearsal savvy to get what you want done in a way that engages the orchestra and accomplishes "the vision" in a timely fashion.
This brings up the most important point, for me. It is NOT about 'stick technique' or looking 'sexy' on the podium. It is doing WHATEVER is necessary in the preparation of the work at hand to make it come alive in performance. My favorite example of that was one performance of the Montreal Symphony I witnessed live with Pierre Monteuax. I really enjoyed his recordings but never actually saw this person conduct before that. His physical movements were perfunctory bordering on silly looking. But as usual he got a wonderful product from the ensemble.
Music, great or otherwise is NOT JUST NOTES. Music is a sonic structure in time. If that structure resembles a pile of building materials - not interesting. If that structure is more like the Parthenon or the Great Pyramid of Giza - more interesting.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Filettofish
Date: 2015-06-05 01:41
Nelsons is still in his first season with Boston, and he seems rather comfortable where he is. Maybe in a year or two he will reconsider, but for the sake of all American orchestras I hope he stays in Boston. The States need another charismatic conductor to balance out with Dudamel
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2015-06-05 03:44
Being at the artistic helm of an organization like the Berlin Phil involves quite a bit more than conducting. Rattle was transformative to the institution and really modernized (for better or worse) both the image and sound of the orchestra.
there is a nice documentary on youtube talking about his first program where he programmed a piece by Thomas Ades, setting the tone with both the orchestra members and the audience for his tenure as a champion of new music and adventurous programmer (have you seen St Matthews passion staged by Peter Sellars?!)
There is a good article by Alan Gilbert that is worth reading. I can't find the original, but here is a related article with excerpts:
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/in-lecture-the-conductor-alan-gilbert-gives-job-description-lauds-new-music/?_r=0
It puts in perspective the many challenges a music director must contend with and how organizations are often short-sighted by the fame factor, but fail to do any decent planning for the artistic future of the institution.
I don't know how the process of electing a new conductor in Berlin works. Is it solely decided by the players? Is management involved?
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-06-06 01:52
Paul- you list the following as being necessary criteria for conducting "wonderfully":
-forethought
-engaging the orchestra during rehearsals
-bringing it alive in the performance
You also mention that music is NOT JUST NOTES. To most of us I would assume that this is blatantly obvious. It's hardly the kind of revelation that needs to be capitalised.
All of the conductors on my list fulfill all of your criteria and much more. There are plenty of other conductors not on my list who achieve the same. To claim that there are no more wonderful conductors alive is just the same as the sports spectator who, even though he's never actually been able to play the sport himself, insists that there are no more good tennis players around any more.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-06 03:22
You put Zubin Mehta and Bernard Haitink on the same plane.
I can't make my capital letters any bigger.
:-)
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-06 16:41
I realize the Zubin Mehta is a really nice guy. I also get that he is a well educated musician. As an instrumentalist, I've heard Mr. Mehta perform beautifully (most notably with his friends Itzhak Perlman and Pinchas Zukerman) in a film of the Schubert Trout Quintet (rehearsal and performance).
However
Something gets lost when he stands in front of the orchestra. I don't know if its because he is being nice to the players, or he just doesn't have a clear idea of what he wants, or he just doesn't know how to get it, BUT (another capitalization) I have not heard anything remarkable from any recording or video of him as a conductor.
Again, I do not besmirch him as a person or as a musician/performer, only as it relates to "getting the job done" as a conductor. He just can't do it.
Easily the most bland on your list. Almost as unlistenable as much of Solti with Chicago (a terrible combination).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-06-06 18:27
My list is probably somewhat arbitrary and almost certainly leaves out many of today's wonderful conductors. I wrote the list spontaneously as a response to your question "where are today's wonderful conductors?". All of the conductors on my list are people that I have worked with and stick in my memory as being wonderful in some way or another. Others have come to mind since I wrote the list.
With Mehta we did Don Carlos. His conducting had a drive from beginning to end (Don Carlos is not a short opera!) which balanced moving lyricism with electrifying energy. The performances were riveting and anything but bland. The result was definitely NOT JUST NOTES.
Tastes may differ, but my point is that there certainly are conductors today who are wonderful in many, many ways.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-12 16:47
I was listening to this recording of Celibidache conducting Til Eulenspiegal and had to post the link for this amazingly transparent and musical rendition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jScX7cryKnA
This though didn't necessarily come out of nowhere. I was listening to a local NPR broadcast the other day of an old Leonard Bernstein album where he explains "musical jokes." He goes into a very detailed analysis of examples through Haydn, Beethoven and this Strauss work using piano, recorded full orchestral excerpts and recordings of sections of the orchestra playing the "jokes" in isolation. Listening to this FULL presentation I gained a better understanding of where Bernstein was coming from (at least for Til Eulenspiegel) and why his versions of things where not always "beautiful."
Now, speaking of this YOUTUBE rendering, under the posted date there is a mini description "Live recording from 1986. Wonderful Orchestra!"
To me that would be equivalent to approaching Martin Frost after a performance and saying, "Wow, you have such a great reed tonight!"
It's a shame that there were a number of players in the MPO that refused to perform with him. Even sadder that a number who did where not up to the technical prowess of the Maestro (as evident a few times in this recording).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2015-06-13 01:29
Yeah, Celibidache was such a gentleman. Didn't he make a real fool of himself by trying to out a female trombonist out of the Munich Philharmonic, just because she was a woman?
No thank you. I don't care how golden these recordings are to your ears, this isn't the kind of role model one wants for any modern conductor.
And no an orchestra is not an instrument or a piece of equipment. In fact many orchestras do just fine without a conductor.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-13 03:29
I would respectfully disagree on the statement about orchestras not being the conductor's instrument.
As you can clearly see, we musicians can't agree on anything, let alone how loud the oboes should be compared to the violins, or how the violinists should bow a certain passage. All that stuff NEEDS to be cohesive in order to render a truly artistic product.
Of course with the state of ensembles today, I can see very easily why someone would think that. But you don't have to listen back too far though (as in the provided link) to a day when conductors mattered.
As for rating a conductor on his social skills, I think you may be looking for something other than a conductor. Yes, it would be ideal if everyone in the band loved the guy upfront, but that is NEVER going to happen. Even if it were Jesus Christ himself, someone would get a wild hair because he is not Krishna.
Personally, if the person doing the job is doing the job better than everyone else I could care less if he doesn't happen to like the same kind of pizza I do. And I do not wish to trivialize the particularly awful situation in Munich, but that seemed to be in regards to that person not being the quality of trombonist Celibidache wanted (much like how Karajan nearly got canned for bringing a woman in to play principal clarinet - go figure).
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2015-06-13 06:40)
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