 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-03 07:18
Hello everyone!
I have been looking into the ATG reed finishing system for quite some time.
However, my parents do not understand why it is a necessary product to have in order to use all cane reeds to maximum potential.
Could all of you please share your experiences and thoughts on this product- so that a layman could understand it?
Thanks!
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2015-02-03 07:24
Have you showed them the video demonstration? It is kind of hard to explain to people who do not understand the frustration of playing unbalanced reeds.
Also by fixing your reeds, you get more good reeds out of a box than buying multiple boxes trying to find a good one, which in the long end will save you a lot of money.
While I agree the ATG system may be a little expensive, I feel that it is invaluable, and I don't know what I would do without it.
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-03 08:04
I showed my dad the video.... he said "you are not a professional clarinetist- you don't need this!" He thinks I can play on any old reed.
I tried to explain about saving money by getting more reeds out of the box... nothing.
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-03 16:35
Another common rebuttal is:
"But ---- does not use this, and ------ is a professional Clarinetist!"
Could you please give me some points to help me explain why this is necessary to get?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-03 18:32
IMHO the fact that you aren't a professional speaks just as much, if not more to buying/using ATG than if you were a professional.
Reed makers like Vandoren use excellent cane and cut it according to design with tolerances of less than a human hair.
But the fact is reeds have diversity, and ironically, balance, so necessary for good play, often only comes after adjustments to the reed that involve playing it, and making non-symmetrical changes to it with respect to its thickness.
ATG not only pays for itself in less disguarded reeds, but not having it or something like it is like someone buying you a car, but offering you few driving lessons.
Pros have numerous adjustment methods at their disposal, and often devote larger portions of their budget (as small as some my argue it is) to reeds.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2015-02-03 18:42
This product is not just for professionals, any sufficiently advanced student will benefit from it, and also learn to better manage and adjust reeds.
Reeds are the single most important piece of equipment a clarinet student has, learning to break them in, and adjust them is critical to success. I sometimes recommend the ATG system to my more advanced students who are wanting to learn to adjust reeds. The schools are funny about giving students razor sharp reed knives these days, the ATG system is a good compromise. It is highly beneficial. It pays for itself within a year or less, since you can resurrect otherwise dead reeds. The DVD that comes with it in of itself is worth the price of the product.
I really get annoyed when I have students who's parents won't buy them new reeds every 6 weeks or so, have their instruments serviced annually, buy method books, etc. Its a real handicap.
If your parents won't buy it for you, can you do some odd jobs for neighbors, and earn what you need to buy it yourself?
Do you have a private teacher? If so, what does your teacher say?
Good luck.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-03 19:19
I have the money needed, but I am incapable of ordering it off of online.
That is why I am dependent on parents. I offered to pay for it.
I believe it is a good and worthwhile purchase. Money is not a problem.
I do not have a private teacher, so I am asking for help here...
I know... I know.... I should have one.
How long does the sanding surface in the system before it needs to be replaced?
What are the main benefits of this system.
I am looking here for feedback from the pros so maybe my parents could reconsider their firm decision about it not being needed.
Please be as specific as possible, so they will understand it..
Many thanks!
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-03 19:32
Let me explain to you what they think.
"Vandoren is reputable- so the product works."
"Reeds are produced in a factory- so they are consistent."
"You played fine before... so why do you need this?"
I tried to explain about inconsistensies, but to no avail.
My parents allowed me to get feedback from the pros, and depending on it, they might reconsider their decision.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-03 19:36
I don't want to get you in trouble- but... I don't think online is really required. Go to the post office and buy a money order (or even your local grocery store). Snail mail it to the Ridenour folks with instructions on what you want, and I am absolutely certain they will ship you an ATG system. Of course you'd probably want to call them first- likely you'll be dealing with Ted.
WRT the ATG system- I put off spending the $$ way too long, didn't get ATG until about a year ago. Wow, no looking back. Not much to say other than my playing experience is so much better than it ever was. This is a bigger deal than what brand of reed, what strength, what mouthpiece, even what clarinet (assuming all those things are at least marginally OK)*. After you've worked with ATG for 3 months (might take you that long to be good at it and understand what you're doing)- tell me if I'm right.
I bought 2 or 3 sheets of abrasive at an Ace hardware for a couple $ and cut to the right size, and that's been enough for the whole year. Your experience may vary.
Good luck!
I have no affiliation with Ridenour Clarinet Products, other than that I depend on them for clarinets, advice, and other essentials.
*What I mean by that is- if I had to give up all but one of- my preferred clarinet, my preferred reed strength and brand, my preferred mouthpiece, or ATG balancing- ATG is what I'd keep... assuming all the other things were OK, just not my favorites.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-02-03 19:46)
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-02-03 20:07
It's a piece of cake to use. Out of a box of 10 reeds, 2 may be perfectly ready to play. If you throw away the other 8, that's a lot of money per reed that you're spending. In the long run, you'll save money by having the ATG system because EVERY reed in the box becomes perfectly ready to play. I use it on all my reeds in addition to his "how to break in reeds" video on youtube. Nine out of 10 reeds are great to play and last a long time...great money saver.
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-02-03 20:56
Think about this, what did musicians do before the ATG product was advertised? Breaking a reed in very slowly is required no matter what adjustments you make to a reed. Reeds change, and that is normal. As far as adjustments, most of my career was spent using nothing more than some very fine sandpaper, and a piece of paper to polish the bottom. I used to use a reed knife, but alas my surgical skills are lacking. I did purchase a ReedGeek a few years ago, and carry it with me. I only use it to keep the bottom of the reed flat if needed. It works great for that. If there is any air leakage on the bottom of the reed and the mouthpiece you will have problems. There is no one product that will guarantee that all reeds will work great. Each reed is different, they change, and somehow musicians have been able to adjust reeds for a very long time without the ATG system. Reading up on how to adjust reeds from knowledgeable sources will do wonders. Will you really be satisfied with reeds that are playable but not really great sounding? You pays your money and you takes your chances.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-03 21:10
Vandoren applies precision to a natural substance, cane, that, like all living organisms, is subject to variability between reeds, and within the reed itself.
Reputability should not in any way be synonymous with consistency here, anymore (and for the same reason) that a reliable dog breeder produces identical puppies. And that reason is primarily genetic diversity.
Case in point, as an example of diversity, vandoren cuts every strength reed of a brand and instrument identically. It then subjects them to stress testing to see what strength to classify them at. Without natural diversity, a different method of developing strengths would have to be developed.
I'll concede that other brands may play better right out of the box, but IMHO nothing beats a well adjusted vandoren, and nothing beats an adjusted reed from any cane reed manufacturer.
Maybe cane reed makers will someday find ways of harvesting and cutting cane that yields more out of the box consistency.
If dad thinks reputable=consistency he should be reminded that even the most reputable car makers tweak the living daylights a out of the vehicles they use to publish MPG statistics.
Still more to point, vandoren makes their own reed adjustment tools. Something tells me the vandoren company line here is not that such tools were only intended and needed on non-vandoren reeds.
Finally, you asked about longevity. I purchased a pack of the 8.5 x 11 sheets of the wet/dry sand paper from a wood workers website. Each piece must make 20 sanding sheets. My point, ongoing costs are trivial.
Post Edited (2015-02-03 21:21)
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2015-02-03 21:14
1) listen to your parents - they know you and your needs better than any of us
2) I have used the ATG system for over 10 years and have found it to be useful, even revolutionary in its approach to making reeds playable
3) Vandoren reeds (and other fine brands) are precisely made and used by clarinetists everywhere.
4) reeds are made from a natural material that suits the clarinet, but the material is variable, thus requiring knowledge about how to make them work in the real world.
5) The real value in the ATG system is the knowledge and techniques that Ridenour provides.
6) listen to your parents
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-03 21:41
Thank you everyone for your advice!
Of course, I listen to my parents.
I just disagreed with them here, and I was trying to gain insight as to why their doubts are not really understanding of reeds.
You all mentioned buying abraisive sheets at a hardware store... what sheets did you buy? Maybe you could post a link to the type of sheets you bought?
The cost for the sheets, you day is minimal, but that the real cost of the reed system is the dvd/knowledge about reed working?
Thanks!
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2015-02-03 21:51
<Of course, I listen to my parents.> Good!
<buying abraisive sheets> I buy wet-or-dry sandpaper using 400 and the lighter 600 grit sizes. You can buy this in places where they sell hardware and/or paint supplies. Being wet or dry, you can clean it with a few drops of water and it lasts for a very long time if you do so. The secret is not in the paper, but in the design of Ridenour's little sanding block.
<the real cost of the reed system is the dvd/knowledge about reed working?> yes
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-03 23:17
Many thanks for your informative reply, johng
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-04 00:23
I might be able to convince my parents now.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-02-04 01:20
Nata -
This has nothing to do with the $79.95 for the ATG. I'm sure your parents have bought you a cell phone and a tablet that cost much more than the ATG.
This has turned into a contest of wills, which you're certain to lose because he controls the money. Nothing will convince him, because he's dug in and will now lose face if he changes his position. Even if he gives in, he'll remember it and look to get even.
Try offering him something -- washing the dishes, taking out the garbage, shoveling snow, cleaning up your room. If necessary put dollar amounts on the services until you reach the cost of the ATG kit. Go the extra mile. It will make him feel obligated.
You might offer an act of contrition and fealty -- try asking him for help with your homework, even if you don't need it, so he feels competent and in charge.
And it wouldn't hurt to apologize (even though you're right) and once again go the extra mile by telling him you love him.
Finally, remember that you're not 100% right either. I adjust reeds just fine with a knife and sandpaper. The ATG makes it quicker and easier, with less time devoted to developing expertise, but even with the ATG, you will need to learn to make the final tweaks by hand.
Make peace with your father.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-02-04 05:12
Ken Shaw wrote:
> Finally, remember that you're not 100% right either. I adjust
> reeds just fine with a knife and sandpaper. The ATG makes it
> quicker and easier, with less time devoted to developing
> expertise, but even with the ATG, you will need to learn to
> make the final tweaks by hand.
The ATG (Against The Grain) technique can be used without the sanding block Tom Ridenour sells with the kit, and the abrasive (wet-or-dry sandpaper) can be bought at any hardware store. What makes the ATG kit unique is the video that comes on the DVD in which Tom demonstrates the technique using, of course, his sanding block.
But ATG, either the technique or the tool, isn't the only way to balance reeds and, IMO, is sometimes not even the right way. Every stroke that you make with the flat sanding block Against The Grain (from the tip toward the heel of the reed) takes a little wood off the tip area, which is often already thin enough. Tom, from what I remember of the video, solves the problem by starting with reeds that are a little too heavy. If you start with a reed that is more comfortable to begin with, it can be hard to balance the thicker area of the taper without also over-thinning the tip.
So, there are many problems of reed balance that are better worked out with a technique that doesn't swipe over the tip area on each stroke. Possible tools can be as simple and inexpensive as a piece of sandpaper over your fingertip to reed rush to a knife (a penknife or Exacto will do with good technique). You can even use these tools Against The Grain, if you like, without always running over the tip.
Buying an ATG kit may well make some of your reed work simpler, but it isn't the only way. While you're working on your dad, start reading about other methods. They'll always be good to know, whenever you finally get a Ridenour ATG kit.
Karl
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-04 05:36
Lots of presumptions being made about this young person, the father, and their relationship. It doesn't seem that this is what the original poster was looking for, and it's probably not at all helpful to any of the parties involved, especially assuming they will all be reading this. Also, it is, well... presumptuous as we do not know these people and their personal dynamics.
I, for one, love the ATG system and am sorry I waited so long to get it. Yes, you can do similar work with other materials and no, it's not going to magically solve every reed issue. It is simply the most efficient, quick, and easy way to do the most impactful things that can be done to improve many reeds (at least in my experience so far).
Once my students and I get through our current preparations for our big yearly evaluations, I will be recommending the ATG to all of my intermediate and advanced students, and most of their parents will (I predict) happily purchase it based on what their kids have already said about it as I result of my fixing their reeds in lessons, and the realization of the money to be saved on getting more out of each box of reeds. Happy reeds make for happy clarinet players. I know I'm much happier as a player since getting the ATG.
I have no affiliation with the Ridenours others than an appreciation for their work.
Anders
Post Edited (2015-02-04 10:01)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-04 06:24
You could just switch to Legere reeds ...!
The ATG system will pay for itself in a few months ... it will improve your playing by allowing you to balance and voice reeds which will make your conductor happy and add awe and respect from your section members ... it may help you place higher in your section ... and place higher in regional and state ensembles ... which may lead to some scholarship money in college ... which may lighten your parent's load on paying for advanced education ...
I use Legere mostly, but I have to adjust almost every Vandoren reed (or any brand of reed, for that matter). This is not an option ... you MUST have a good way to fix reeds ... and the ATG system is one of the best ... and it's cheap!
Call Ted Ridenour, get a total cost, and purchase a money order. Ted is friendly and will be happy to help you out ...
Tom
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-02-04 12:48
"However, my parents do not understand why it is a necessary product to have in order to use all cane reeds to maximum potential."
Is this really an actual question or an advertisement for the ATG system? This is just one of many products on the market, and is certainly not "a necessary product to have in order to use on all cane reeds to maximum potential." In reality the ATG system can not guarantee to maximize the potential of all cane reeds, and they still need work even if you buy this product. Somehow this whole topic is just not ringing true to me in the way it is being presented. Does it deal with the bottom of the reed? Does it address the breaking in of a reed and polishing it? Does it deal with other adjustments to a reed? Does it deal with the constant changes in a reed? Advertising can take many forms.
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Author: nata
Date: 2015-02-04 17:29
Sorry if the whole situation has been misinterpreted.
This is not an ad for ATG, but I have heard rave reviews.
I was trying to get some feedback regarding its usage so that my parents could see that it could help my playing, not try and blow this up.
I would suggest that this thread be stopped- for the danger of this blowing up even bigger is too great.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-02-04 18:16
nata wrote:
> Sorry if the whole situation has been misinterpreted.
>
> I would suggest that this thread be stopped- for the danger of
> this blowing up even bigger is too great.
Nata, I don't think it's been blown up, especially. Of course, Mark Charette can close this thread at any point if he thinks it's gotten out of hand or too personal.
But I think you're missing an important point, one that a couple of us have maybe been a little late in trying to make. You've presented this to your dad, apparently from your original post, as "necessary" to your optimal use of reeds and, perhaps by extension, ultimately to your progress as a clarinetist. The issue Larry (Wisco99), Ken and I have raised is that, while ATG is a useful product, it's an exaggeration to say that it's "necessary" or essential. Our only point is that, as you've presented the argument here, you're over-selling it to your father (but we haven't heard the actual conversation, so we can only judge what you've told us of it).
You posted asking for support in a family discussion (dispute? argument? it's hard to tell) and some replies have seemed to offer that support. Others of us have said, in effect, hold on - there's more than one way to skin a cat.
While personally I agree that ATG is a viable way to adjust reeds (scraping in the opposite direction from most traditional approaches) and that the sanding block that Tom Ridenour sells is a convenient and useful tool with which to apply it, I have simply expressed an opinion that "necessary product to have in order to use all cane reeds to maximum potential" is a little hyperbolic as a description.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-04 18:27
I plugged ATG above and yet completely respect Karl's thoughts, and why he's arrived at the opinions he has. ATG is IMHO a wonderful innovation that has made my life so much easier as a clarinetist on cane reeds, but I managed without it before it was introduced (i.e. there are other methods), and didn't suddenly develop the "ability to play both my Beefer and A clarinets simultaneously" once I started using it, if you'll pardon the metaphor.
Post Edited (2015-02-04 18:28)
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-02-04 19:31
This is kind of reminding me of buying laundry soap. There are many different brands on the shelf, each extolling their virtues in ads, and of course there is always "New And Improved". They will all get your clothes clean.
There are many methods, books, and products to work on reeds to get them to play better. Mr. Ridenour has this video on youtube showing the advantages of the ATG system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MBpL-h2dfk
He wears a white sheet over his head to show that you really need no skill to use the product, in fact you do not even have to see. What bothers me is he includes a DVD with the product, and some have mentioned that is really a big part of what you are paying for, all that information. My gosh, why would you need that when all you have to do is put a sheet on your head and in a few seconds without even looking you have a reed playing great. I rest my case.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-02-05 05:09
In any case, we here shouldn't be injecting ourselves between Nata and his father by characterizing his father's side of this. Nata asked for opinions about the importance of his having an ATG kit, which is really all we should be offering. We don't, for one thing, know for sure his father's motivation. For another, *if* this has escalated into a "battle of wills," we can't know for certain what has been said in the heat of battle by either combatant. Better to stay out of the dispute and just comment on the ATG kit itself.
Nata needs to decide if the answers he's gotten here support or weaken his position.
Karl
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-02-05 08:14
Or he could make his own for a few bucks.
The ATG system is essentially a small plastic sanding block with two grades of fine sandpaper, a rectangular piece of glass to lay the reed on when you are sanding it, and a user's manual and an instructional CD. Others will surely disagree but, for my money, the most important information in the manual and on the instructional CD is contained in this free article on Tom Ridenour's website:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/adjusting.htm
I think it's to Tom Ridenour's credit, BTW, that he has left the article on his website even after introducing the ATG system. Perhaps you can use the article to help convince your Dad that the benefits of the ATG system outweigh its costs. But the truth is that you can also use the article with a homemade sanding block and a small thick piece of glass from a hardware store to accomplish pretty much the same thing as the ATG system.
That said, I bought an ATG system several years ago (when the price was a bit lower) because I thought Tom Ridenour should be rewarded for his efforts. It works and I agree that it will eventually pay for itself but I also agree with those who argue that similar functionality can be obtained for a lot less than $80.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2015-02-05 08:21)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-02-05 16:11
Hi All,
I have watched this thread with great interest. I bought the ATG system about a decade ago and use it all the time. It works very well for me.
But I think the use of the word "cheap" or use of the notion of "getting off cheaply" might have been better phrased by using "value" or "the ATG has good value." I'm always looking for good value just like Warren Buffet always does. I think that Nata's father might be looking for the same.
The ATG is a good value. There are other ways to work reeds but with the ATG and a white sheet, just about any clarinet player can achieve some dramatic results.
Best regards,
HRL
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-05 19:18
My thoughts, which of course are not the last word. People are entitled to feel differently.
* Adults on this board have responsibilty, in absense of concrete evidence of clear and present danger or abuse to a minor, to encourage minors to follow the directives of their guardian parents, even when lawful purchases arise from monies lawfully earned by the minor, and even when we may feel that those decisions by a parent appear at first glance to be, shall I say, less than what we might see as "best practices." We should not advise or suggest methods of "making a run around the end zone" that is a child's parents.
* Nathan. A "post and a thread goes, where a post and a thread goes." You are not responsible for the thoughts and feelings of others. You did not start a bon fire here, anymore than if one exists--itself questionable--are you responsible for that: as you are not. This is not to say that your desire to not be a catalyst in fights isn't duly noted as a worthy attribute for a young man like yourself.
* Cheap = what reasonable people would construe, in possession of all relevant facts, which we clearly don't have, is irrational frugality.
* While I do respect the difference between labeling a person's particular actions as cheap, as opposed to that person being cheap, I think it's unfair to call someone cheap without knowing them. Speaking in generalities, maybe a parent can't afford to purchase the ATG method, much less Vandoren reeds for their child because they need those monies to pay for grandma's life saving treatment, not covered by her insurance--or one of 10,000 reasons we're not privy to, but if we were, we might conclude was a wize decision, even if on the surface, it seems like a cheap one.
* We all come to the table with biases. Some of us, I'll mention no names, specialize in teaching gifted High School students, and may be justifiably frustrated by parents who won't spend the money to get their kids the equipment they need, even when they can clearly afford it.
* The moderators run a system with a plethora of emoticons available to us so that when we joke, we can make that clear. As it is, so much is lost in translation in the art of even face to face communication, that when we talk with the written word, it could serve us well to express our sentiments at the time of writing, if not otherwise clear.
* I am a huge fan of ATG, or equally important what I've learned from it. Case in point, I've been able to transfer some of the skills I've learned from it to use of its techniques with the Vandoren Reed resurfacer product (sans the reed stick that comes with it): a piece of etched glass, tiny in size for my case, that doesn't wear out like sandpaper. I hope this point speaks not only volumes to Tom Ridenour's techniques, but equally important to the idea that those here who take a different stance than me, and argue that ATG isn't the last word (nothing is), have extremely cogent arguments, as I'm not even using Tom's tools sometimes, just what I've learned from him. This is not to say that there isn't brilliance in the simplicity of design of Tom's highly effective tools. Still more, its learning curve is so simple that even intermediate players can learn it quickly. I don't think that's true with a lot of other reed adjustment techniques.
* I am a huge fan of helping students out, but not to the extent that it denies designers like Tom Ridenour rights to earn profit on his intellectual property. Still more, I think, like so many of Tom's videos that try to be not merely sales pitches, but informative, he has once again earned unjust criticism for adjusting reeds blindly, using ATG. I think that all Tom's showed is that once the techniques are mastered, it isn't sight that's the primary sense for effecting the skill set he promotes. Instead, we adjust reeds with a sense of feel and hearing, in combination with his techniques. There's not much to "see." The minute (MY NOOT) amounts of material removed from a reed using the technique aren't visible to the naked eye anyway.
* Larry: please rethink leaving the bboard. I've enjoyed and found your comments in the past balanced and well considered. In any group we enjoy of even small size, we all find people we like more than others. The trick is to not "throw out the baby with the bathwater."
Post Edited (2015-02-05 19:22)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-05 20:13
It's unbelievable to me that the level of discourse between a few members of the BBoard has caused me to have to edit and close this thread.
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