 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nbclarinet
Date: 2014-05-29 06:57
I've been playing on my new (to me) mouthpiece for almost a year now. It's a very old vandoren blank (I believe a 2rv from the 1950s) refaced by Ramon Wodkowski. I must say that he is a fantastic mouthpiece maker/refacecer and I am extremely happy with this piece.
The one downside is that when acquiring the piece from him, I never got any specs on the piece. Although I love playing it, I'd like to be able to determine some basic information regarding the face curve length etc purely for my own curiosity.
I have read a few articles on how to measure the facing using feeler gauges and a glass plate. My question is, can these measurements be taken using gauges designed for auto repair (given that I match the correct thicknesses), or is there something special about the gauges made specifically for mouthpiece work? They tend to run for under 20$ as opposed to 100$+ and given that this is an experiment for curiosity's sake I don't want to spend more than 20$
Also, what constitutes a long,medium, and short facing by today's standards? Please correct me if I'm wrong but this measurement would be taken in mm from where the thinnest gauge contacts the mpc to the tip rail?
Thank you in advance
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-05-29 17:48
For the measurements to have any value in comparisons to other mouthpieces, you'd need to be using the same thickness feeler gauges that are in the basic set that other people are using. And the glass plate needs to be reliably flat and marked off in 1/2 mm intervals, so if a feeler stops at 12, it's really 6 mm from the tip. If the thinnest (.0015") standard feeler stops at 36, the curve would generally be described either as a 36 (with "on a standard plate with a .0015" feeler" understood) or as 18 mm, although everyone also understands that the curve actually continues a little farther. So, assuming you could find the right feelers, the glass is really the more important part of the kit.
The glass, feelers and a tip opening gauge are all available at Music Medic http://www.musicmedic.com/, are normally available but apparently currently out of stock at Ferree's Tools http://www.ferreestools.com/. They're not expensive. The glass and feelers will break your $20 maximum, but not by much. (I have no connection to either Music Medic or Ferree).
If you're looking for a tip gauge, you'll probably have to buy one dedicated to the purpose or have a tool maker produce one for you, which will be much more expensive than the taper or dial gauges commercially available. Tip gauges tend to be inconsistent from one to another, so a tip opening advertised by a specific maker may not be the same as the measurement I get with any of my tip gauges - in fact I have three and they don't agree with each other.
> Also, what constitutes a long,medium, and short facing by
> today's standards? Please correct me if I'm wrong but this
> measurement would be taken in mm from where the thinnest gauge
> contacts the mpc to the tip rail?
>
I can't begin to guess what those descriptors mean in other parts of the world, but I think for American players you could say short is 32 (16 mm) or 33 (16.5 mm) or less, long is 37 or 38 or longer and medium is in between. Other players may quibble about the edges of those ranges.
Keep in mind that the curve and tip don't constitute a complete description of what makes a mouthpiece play the way it does. Two mouthpieces from different makers with exactly the same curve and tip measurements may play very differently from each other.
Karl
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Author: rdc
Date: 2014-05-30 05:18
The gauges generally used for measuring mouthpieces are .0015", .010", .024", .034", and for larger mouthpieces, .050".
You could use the auto gauges, but I have found two problems:
1. Most of the inexpensive gauge sets won't have all the correct sizes you need. The .034" seems to be especially hard to find.
2. I once bought an inexpensive set to get a new .0015" gauge, but it turned out to be grossly inaccurate. Much larger than marked.
Hope this helps!
R. Chest
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-05-30 15:36
Karl.....Thank you for providing as clear and complete an explanation of this subject as I've seen........
Bob Draznik
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-30 20:58
As I said in another thread, there seems to be no reasonable way for the non-tech (or even the tech) to evaluate the facing dimensions on a random used (or even factory new) mouthpiece one has obtained from whatever source. So if you like it, or don't like it- maybe it's representative of others of the same make and model or supposedly of similar tip dimension, or maybe it isn't. And maybe it's as originally made, or maybe it's been redone by someone of high or low skill, who could know? Maybe it's had 0.3mm or more of its facing eaten away by a Clorox bath in an attempt to make it black again (sorry couldn't resist).
The university or symphony artists who've been evaluating mouthpieces for 40 years can probably tell you with 10 seconds of blowing everything you might want to know about said mouthpiece. The rest of us remain in the dark. All we can do is try what we can afford to get our hands on, and choose what works best for us. The science of it is elusive.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-30 21:00)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-05-30 22:20
fskelley wrote:
> As I said in another thread, there seems to be no reasonable
> way for the non-tech (or even the tech) to evaluate the facing
> dimensions on a random used (or even factory new) mouthpiece
> one has obtained from whatever source.
Well, for less than $75 (depends on your definition of "reasonable") you can have the tools to measure the curve and tip opening. If you know what it was *supposed* to be when the mouthpiece was new or in the case of a new one, what the advertised specs are, you can certainly tell if it's been changed significantly or not. A mouthpiece that started life with a 32 length and a 1.00 mm tip opening that now is 38 with a 1.04 tip has clearly been altered. If I bought a new Vandoren M15 from an online outlet and find that I can't get a sound out of it with reeds I use easily on my regular mouthpiece with a similar facing, I'll check the facing measurements. If I discover that the tip opening is 1.07 or 1.08 (should be nominally 1.03), I can strongly suspect someone tried to experiment with it before giving up and returning it to the vendor (which would be grounds for returning it).
On a very old mouthpiece that seems to have the facing measurements it should have had when new, restorative touch-up work may not be easy to detect unless there are marks, which a good mouthpiece re-finisher wouldn't leave. Touch-ups are often done when a player suspects a favorite mouthpiece isn't playing as well as it once did.
A mouthpiece's exact measurements really don't matter much to the player. Whether it feels good - plays well - is far more important. Measurements have their interest, mostly to us mouthpiece nerds. But they can narrow the field if you're looking for a replacement. Mostly they're important for mouthpiece makers to be sure they're producing consistent products.
Karl
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-05-30 23:02
You may find the following information informative and useful:
www.musictrader.com/clarinetmouthpiecerefacing.pdf
(You'll have to copy and paste because the normal < > didn't work for me to make it a clickable link. Also, for very accurate feeler gauge thickness accuracy, the use of a very good digital micrometer to verify the gauge thickness has worked quite well for me in the past.)
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