 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-13 19:53
It's a clarinet with Sax-type fingering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-13 20:25
Seems to be a plateau key, Oehler system clarinet (without the low E and F correction key).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-13 20:40
It's not an Oehler system - it's a Sax system (sort of).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-13 21:32
I'm going by the set up of the long key.....identical. Of course on Oehler you'd have to be able to play "C" above the staff with just the second finger of the left hand and this clarinet has all sorts of "stuff" happening right there.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-13 21:34
It's a mix of Boehm system main action but with German pinky keys.
No Bis Bb key though.
Loree and Louis (as well as Uebel) made Sax fingered oboes - now that's something I'd like, not to mention a Sax fingered cor anglais!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-13 23:48
Yes seems to be Boehm plateau on the main toneholes but also it looks like it has German type side keys on the top joint too.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-02-14 02:23
Richard Keilwerth, like other firms, made „gedeckelte“ soprano clarinets to a small extent till at least the 1990ties. They were aimed at saxophonists (misleadingly called “Jazzklarinette” by some) and people with handicaps. Every some months you may find one on the German auction site. Clarinetists in general don’t like them very much: stuffy, not flexible etc.
The “gedeckelte” Keilwerth clarinet you are showing here looks like new but the bellring indicates that it is an older model. It is mainly German system with rather basic keywork, with some modifications for saxophone (Boehm?) type fingering. Keilwerth must also have made one of their better designs, an Oehler model, in a “gedeckelt” version (Model 7a, as I've read in a German forum). In the actual Richard Keilwerth catalogue "gedeckelt" models are not offered.
On your photo the two Oehler typical resonance vents on the right side of the lower joint would not be visible; the bell seemingly doesn’t have the E improvement vent of actual Oehler models.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2014-02-14 04:02
Chris is correct it is a so-called saxophone fingering clarinet. These have a hybrid of Boehm and German fingering and also include a bridge key as on a Boehm. Richard Keilwerth made these with either their own name or stencil name - one of which is Lindberg. The ones I've seen were all HP so I assume they were made pre WW2.
The three upper stack side keys are typical German or Albert type. The rest of the upper stack is close to Boehm but some of the fork fingerings seem to work. Also the G/C key is a plateau key. Lower stack has the Boehm fork fingering for B/F# otherwise it's like a german system. It also has the usual plethora of adjustment screws you find on german systems (as opposed to Alberts or Boehms). These horns actually play very nicely 'tis pity they are HP. Unlike most german system horns these have an adjustment screw on the A flat key
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-02-14 00:02
''It's a clarinet with Sax-type fingering.'' CHRIS P
''Seems to be a plateau key, Oehler system clarinet (without the low E and F correction key).'' PAUL AVILES
''It's not an Oehler system - it's a Sax system (sort of).''CHRIS P
''It's a mix of Boehm system main action but with German pinky keys.'' CHRIS P
Chris is correct it is a so-called saxophone fingering clarinet. CHRIS MOFFATT
*******************************************************
I'll admit that I'm no expert but, having owned and played an Oehler system some years ago, it is closer to this type than most of the above comments suggest - Paul Aviles seems to have nailed it.
There are a multitude of Oehler setups and this one has 14 keys and one or two articulated keys. My Oehler (from memory) had a total of 15 keys and 5 rings and this one looks very much like mine, except for the plateau keys, of course.
I actually believe it's accidental that Albert/Oehler/Simple systems are ''convenient'' for saxophone players - the forked fingering would give rise to the view that this particular system of clarinet is ''saxophone fingering''.
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-02-14 06:51
I doubt that the Keilwerth is a ''mixture'' of the two.
As I mentioned, it looks like the Oehler I owned a while back, very much so, in fact, and thanks for the picture.
Whilst I've clearly not played the instrument in question, it does however look like a fair dinkum Oehler, given the key configuration, and, I'll bet the fingering - particularly on the lower joint which will facilitate the forked fingering. My guess is that the use of plateau keys instead of rings has confused the issue somewhat.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2014-02-14 07:11
My comments were made based on one of these I have currently right here on the desk. No confusion.
Incidentally if your clarinet had 15 keys and 5 rings it was not an Oehler system clarinet (5 rings + Griffplatte). It may have been a type of german system horn (anywhere from 14 keys/4 rings on up to 27keys/6 rings) or a type of improved Albert system.
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-02-14 08:02
Thanks Chris - I'm sure it was an Oehler - pretty much as per your photograph. I recall it had the two upper joint trill keys in between those particular rings - amongst other features - but not the plate on the bottom joint. It was not an ''improved'' Albert, of that I can be fairly sure, as there was German writing on the bell.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-02-14 09:17
I don't have one of these on my desk in front of me but I have played one before. The right hand "finger pattern" is the same as a Boehm clarinet (and thus the saxophone), the left hand "finger pattern" is the same as a saxophone (ie you will get f/c by going T-0X0) so I suppose it (left hand) is thus the same as an Oehler system clarinet.
As stated above VERY convenient for Saxophone players- no need to learn a new left hand configuration for Boehm, OR a new right hand configuration for Oehler.
dn
Post Edited (2014-02-14 13:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-14 13:43
IT IS NOT AN OEHLER SYSTEM!
How many times do I have to say that? JUST LOOK AT IT! It's patently obvious what it is simply by looking at the keywork!
It's a Sax system clarinet - it's NOT an Oehler (absolutely nothing like an Oehler), nor is it pure German system (which don't have the Oehler mechanism for RH2), nor pure Boehm system (LH and RH pinky configuations aren't duplicated and there's no link to the left thumb), but a mixture of them all plus Sax fingerings for the left hand (minus the Bis key).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-02-14 19:48
Attachment: Oehler.jpg (203k)
Couldn'we see the Keilwerth from its starboard side? As mentioned above:typical for Oehler are the two small resonance vents on the right side of the lower link which are closed by the "Griffplatte" for RH2 (see photo of my F.A.Uebel from 1936). I suppose Keilwerth made both: "Gedeckelte" Oehler as well as "German" (6-ring) clarinets .
What is called "Volloehler"- standard for professional level german clarinets- (but probably not built by Oskar Oehler himself but only later on by his pupils and successors like Warschewsky, F.A.Uebel and others) has, in addition to the "Griffplatte"- mechanism, an E improvement vent in the bell and an F improvement mechanism. (At the Musikinstrumentenmuseum Markneukirchen, http://www.museum-markneukirchen.de/ , a detailed monograph about Oehler is available, in German but with lots op photos)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-14 16:08
This clarinet doesn't need the two side keys as Bb/F is fingered as xxx|xoo as on Boehm systems and saxes, so doesn't require any further venting as opposed to the German/Oehler forked Bb/F fingering (xxx|xox) which needs a forked F vent to compensate for RH3 being closed.
On this clarinet, low E, F and F# (and upper B, C and C#) are played as on simple/Albert/German/Oehler system.
G/D, Ab/Eb and A/E are as both systems (and also Ab/Eb with the LH Ab/Eb lever).
Bb/F and B/F# are as Boehm/saxes (Bb/F - xxx|xoo. B/F# - xxx|oxo or xxx|xo/o).
C/G, C#/G#, D/A, Eb/Bb and E/B are as both systems (using the side or cross Eb/Bb key for Eb/Bb).
F/C is fingered as oxo|ooo as on saxes or with the middle side key.
F#/C# is with just the thumb as on simple/Albert/German/Oehler systems (or like the open C# on saxes).
Thumb off gives open G and the throat notes are as all other clarinets (apart from Mazzeos).
IF it had duplicate RH and LH pinky keys, that would make it a very universal system with a bit of everything, although it will then be more Boehm system than anything else.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-02-14 21:11)
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-02-15 00:12
Chris P is correct- and Chris please note that your description and mine concur though you have been more precise (plus I didn't bother mentioning the low E/F etc as it is obvious what's happening down there). My statement "is the same as Oehler" was only referring to the left hand configuration.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-02-15 02:33
Thank you Chris, I think I’ve got it now: The RH forked Bb/F vent of German or Oehler systems (arrows on Foto!) is missing on the Keilwerth, so fingering is as on Boehm with the typical extra vent for RH1 Bb/F inline and close to the upper socket. Indeed the two side vents of Oehler (“Resonanzklappen”) have nothing to do with this point; here the question was only whether the Keilwerth is more German- like or Oehler- like- but their place on the right side can't be seen on the foto.
Post Edited (2014-02-14 21:39)
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-02-15 08:38
Now that there some more photographs of various instruments, although only one still, of the instrument in question, it is sort of, becoming a little clearer.
The ''original'' photo from CYCLOPATHIC and also sent later by, CHRIS P, shows what appears to be a plateau festooned Oehler system.
The second photo (from CHRIS P) shows a comparison between an Oehler and a Boehm.
The third photo (from MICHAEL W) show partial keywork from an Oehler? (at least that's what the file name indicates) and this instrument has keys near the right pinkys, which indicate it has some sort of quasi ''saxophone'' fingering. This instrument appears to be in...
...the fourth photo as well, (from MICHAEL W) along with a German instrument. This latter instrument incidentally (the part I can see, at least), reminds me of my previously owned Oehler system and also looks just like the bottom joint of my current Buffet Albert.
So, to my point. The instrument in question (CYLOPATHIC's) has just the one photograph to examine and whilst I printed it out and looked carefully, I did not see any ''saxophone'' type fittings.
Given the arrival of the later photos, it certainly appears that the bottom joint of a ''saxophone'' type fingered clarinet is pictured in the two photos from MICHAEL W. It does not prove that CYLOPEDIC's instrument, though, is of this nature. Perhaps there are saxophone type pads hidden behind (or underneath,possibly) the three lower plateau keys. The original photo is just too indistinct and instrument is on the wrong angle.
It seems that ''saxophone'' fingered clarinets have been manufactured - a point I am happy to concede - but I think the jury is still out (well, MY jury anyway) as to the nature instrument in question.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-02-15 20:31
No, my instruments are not “saxophone fingered”. Chris P has made it clear: cyclopathic’s “gedeckelt” Keilwerth has a Boehm-like mechanism for RH 1 Bb/F. Whether it has an Oehler mechanism for RH 2 with its two side vents you couldn’t see on this photo, and I doubt if that would be possible at all in combination with that Boehm-like mechanism.
The two from my photos have the typical “German” forked Bb/F mechanism for RH 1+3 with a vent top left between RH1 andRH2 (red arrows!), the German type instrument (student grade with only 5 open rings) as well as the classic F.A.Uebel Oehler with “Griffplatte” for RH2 and the two additional right side vents coupled to it.
Albert or “Simple system” clarinets can sometimes not so easily be distinguished from German system. They also may have up to 5 (or even 6?) open rings. As typical for Albert (but not always to be found) count a “wraparound” speaker key and “three in a row” vents on the bottom joint
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-16 03:33
I can see very clearly what the original clarinet is and I'm standing firmly by everything I've mentioned about it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-02-16 07:38
This is getting a bit ridiculous. Several posts have accurately described this clarinet. Just read what is written by people who know what they're talking about. The description of it as having "sax type fingering" is not trying to say that the fingerings are exactly like a saxophone, but that the fingering has been arranged to most effectively RESEMBLE a saxophone. It was/is easy to see from the first photograph posted that the right hand had the same finger pattern at the right hand of Boehm system. Admitedly the keywork on the top joint/ left hand is a little harder to ascertain from the photograph (if you've never played one before)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-16 16:10
I've always understood that Sax fingering did not mean "Like a sax" but that the keywork was as developed by Adolphe Sax. Not entirely the same thing.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-16 17:39
Saxes have come a long way mechanically since Adolphe Sax's original design that served for around 50 years - low Bb, automatic 8ves, articulated G#, long Bb, high F#, more ergonomic keywork (thanks to the Balanced Action), larger bore, infinite mouthpiece designs, etc.
While Sax himself was never instrumental in designing the Sax-fingered oboe, that didn't stop the 20th Century makers calling their alternative design (not including the Boehm system oboe) the 'Sax-fingered oboe' due to the keywork being based on the mechanism seen on saxes to make it an easier doubling instrument for dance band players. But they are viewed with disgust by purists who think it's best to stick with tradition rather than something that could happen to be easier for some people to play on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-02-16 20:26)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-16 18:02
Thanks for that, Chris. I have a friend here in Oz who plays an Oehler system clarinet, which are about as common as hens teeth here. Alone and proud, he considers all who play Boehms as effete. Mind you, he sounds pretty good!
Tony F.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-17 01:00
Have saxes actually come a long way since sax designed them??
I accept the points that Chris P makes but don't consider these as fundamental changes.
Some years ago I was overhauling a late Adolp Sax alto sax (c 1890s) and at same time had in a Selmer SA80 for service.
When both instruments were totally stripped with all keywork removed they looked remarkably similar.
I then measured all the tonehole diameters on both and was very surprised to find there was actually only very small differences there.
On a modern sax it looks different because the makers tend to make the key cups more consistent in size, which often results in the pad being twice the size of the hole!!
My contention is that in fact Sax got it so right that very few Fundamental changes have happened in over 150 years.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-16 20:34
The last and most significant change was in 1936 with the Balanced Action which made for a far more comfortable instrument with the better action of the bell keys and the offset RH main action toneholes. Things haven't progressed much from there.
Would've been interesting if they ever made a fully Sax-fingered clarinet with palm and side keys and no thumb hole, so the palm/side keys are used for G and high D, G# and high Eb, A/high E, Bb/high F and B/high F#
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-02-17 05:12
''Thanks for that, Chris. I have a friend here in Oz who plays an Oehler system clarinet, which are about as common as hens teeth here. Alone and proud, he considers all who play Boehms as effete. Mind you, he sounds pretty good!''
Seems we are both in Melbourne, Tony. I wonder if we both know your friend.
JK
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-17 17:40
Hi JK,
Probably not, he's an elderly Dutch farmer from East Gippsland who is so far off the mainstream he's almost invisible. He used to play in Holland but since coming here 40+ years ago only plays for his own amusement, and sometimes with some friends on flute and guitar. I'm up in Emerald, where are you?
Tony F.
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-02-20 07:34
Tony,
The bloke I know actually lives in Bendigo, as for myself, I'm in Box Hill.
chrs,
JK
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-04-28 22:29
In case anybody remembers the discussion about Cyclopathic's „gedeckelte“ Keilwerth, Boehm or not/ Sax fingering/ „Jazz“- clarinet: here is another sample of this rare species, sadly- judged by the photos- in not as fine a state. If I'm right it is not allowed here to refer to a link to „that“ auction site- but you could easily find it on the German ... site under „Antike Klarinette Ebenholz“, for 178 Euros as of today.
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Author: MelVintage
Date: 2014-05-29 13:08
Just thought I would add to this thread, I have a very similar clarinet on this thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=406965&t=406965
This is a a very interesting thread for me with lots of valuable information, what a great forum this is!
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