 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-12 18:27
I want to get a tuner. I have never owned one so I don't know anyhing about them. When I used to play in a school band, the band had one. If I remember correctly, it would only check one note. You would blow this one note (which note it was I can't recall, it has been 20 years) and it would tell you if you were sharp or flat.
I want to get one that will do that for any note. As a matter of fact, I would like one that you could blow a note and the machine would tell you what note it is! This would be very helpful for me as I am teaching myself how to play that tricky little Eb soprano flute Right now I am only using the piano to check the notes (Let's just hope my piano is in tune!)
Anyway, I am hoping to pick up something on eBay maybe. I see one on there all the time that is a Korg Chromatic tuner. Anyone familiar with this one? Will it do what I want it to do?
Shelly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-12 18:33
I (and many others) carry around a Korg CA-20 tuner --- very cheap (retails for $20 or less) and very small. Real basic, but does the job. I assume this model is still available, or it may have been replaced by a newer version.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-04-12 18:57
I have a Korg CA-20 too. Whatever note you play, it will gauge the pitch on its meter without further adjustment (unlike those monster tuners of yore). It also displays the concert name of the note -- so if you play a C on a Bb clarinet, it will display "Bb".
I bought mine at a local music store. This cash-and-carry purchase cost less than the average eBay auction price plus shipping.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-04-12 19:46
I use the software that comes with SmartMusic Studio. It has a "turner" feature and I can buy accompaniments for myself and students also! Real neat...but it is more expensive than just a tuner (still less than $100 for software and microphone). However, if you want to practice the Mozart at the house by yourself you've got the accompaniment (individual accompnaniment midi files can be purchased usually $15 for easy ones to $38 or so for more difficult ones). It can also "follow" you....in otherwords if you slow the tempo the accompaniment automatically adjusts. If interested go to the Coda web site. I don 't have the address in front of me, but it is the same company that developed "Finale" scoring software.
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2001-04-12 20:25
Since John mentioned a software tuner, here's one that's free and really sophisticated.
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
It has a tuning meter, and a frequency spectrum display so you can see the fundamental and those harmonics. You can select clarinet, and it displays the fingering you are using.
I am learning Shakuhachi (Japanese bamboo flute), and that's how I found this tuner which was initially designed for its tuning. It has other instruments too.
PRETTY NEAT!!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2001-04-12 21:04
If you are playing with an ensemble that tunes to a piano, it is important to pick a tuner that either: 1) can tune itself to match your piano; or, 2) can adjust what frequency to ascribe to "A". I've got a little cassette sized Yamaha tuner that does the latter - I'm very pleased with it. You select the key of your instrument, the value of A (440, 442, etc), and it names the note and displays intonation using red and green LED's. I like it very much.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2001-04-12 21:58
I also have the Korg CA-20. It's a nice little inexpensive tuner that has some good features. Here is a partial list.
1. Displays the concert pitch of the note
2. Has *BOTH* the little LED indicators and a "needle" indicator to show whether you are sharp or flat.
3. Adjustable pitch for A (within limits) so you can set for A=440 or something else if your band is habitually high or low.
4. An input jack for use with instruments like electric guitars.
At its relatively low price, just go down to a local music store and get one. No point in fussing around with eBay.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-12 23:44
Y'all are so helpful I am downloading the freebie and I will look for that Korg on my next trip to Tampa.
Thanks
Shelly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2001-04-12 23:52
Iv'e got a Seiko SMP-20 that I like. It is a combination tunerl/metronome that is small, has a sweep-hand for a tuning meter that is easy to read that lights up in the dark (don't like the led blinking lights kind), tells you what concert pitch you are producing, and the metonome part will divide the beats into different patterns (threes, fours, fives, triplets, etc) but I seldom use that feature. I like it because it fits easily into my case and is easy to use. Bad part is that it is expensive, almost to the point of being over-priced. Bought it over a year ago and paid in excess of $150.00--but it works well for me and I like it--that's the BL for me. Good clarineting!!!!!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Willie
Date: 2001-04-13 03:50
Thanks for passing it on about the tuner and metronom, Bill. Just downloaded me another toy to play around with.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2001-04-13 05:18
Shelly --
My playing experience goes back to the days of tuning forks. I still have a couple of them. Great progress has been made in this area from the days of the StroboConn or the big Peterson tuners, which could keep the coffee warm with the heat from their vacuum tubes.
Although the Korg seems to be the most popular, there are several brands of tuners available, all of which seem to do the job.
On recommendation, I bought a little Seiko 747 tuner at a local music store for about $30. Judging from Dee's description above, this Seiko has the same functions as the little Korg tuner. Another small low priced tuner which many people like is called Quik-Tune.
Although both my vocal and instrumental pitch sense is better than most, I no longer care to play in a group without one of these devices close by. Now at last we have an objective way to resolve intonation problems with tin eared colleagues.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-04-13 06:47
I just played a gig tonight and used my Korg. I don't like the red/green lights but found they come in really handy when the pit lights go down. The stand light doesn't work for the LCD display so the red/green ends up all you have (besides your ear which really works a bit better than the machine... picks up your own horn much better).
I have had the Korg crash to the cement floor three times now. Once it opened and spilled out the battery. Doesn't seem to bother it.
I have another tuner which only has the idiot lights and it is calibrated with a push button and it's microphone. That is easier than punching in the tuning note and testing it against the pitch the group is using, like you do on the Korg.
That Korg looks to be the best deal out there, it only costs about what a box of reeds does.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-04-13 14:07
I don't really believe in tuners.
Ear is ten million times better. Some who don't know how to use ear, should train, to use it...
A clarinet's pitch is always changing.. and anyway, some notes on the clarinet are by convention out of tune. And normally a clarinetist should be ajusting with lips and barrel all the time.
The only thing a tuner is usefull for is when you buy a new instrument.
You would look stupid going to orchestra with a tuner.... would you say to the oboist... YO man, you're out of tune !
pitch varies between 438 and 443 and you have to do with it. and no tuner will tell you that..
But.. you know it's always cool to show off with equipment... ain't it ?
Oh well
regards to everyone
DAn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-13 15:03
That's a bit rough, Daniel. We are all different and for some, developing a better pitch discernment ear is a very, very long road, no matter how mutch they work on it. It can almost be likened to tryhing to get a colour blind person to see colours. They only get better at discerning what the shades of grey might be. For others they were almost born with it.
For many, a tuner is useful as an aid to travelling that road. And I have played alongside many people who THOUGHT their tuning was great; they NEEDED to learn from a tuner for the sake of players around them.
A tuner is also useful for settling disagreements about pitch.
But I agree with you, tuning is on-going, note by note, adjusting to what sounds best to blend with those around, and we have to adjust all the time in the way we blow to compensate for changes in air temperature in the bore, and as volume changes. When I tune-up at the beginning of a session really all I am doing is checking that the agreed pitch is within comfortable lipping distance of where I normally play. To imagine much more than that is a farce. I adjust my instrument during music only if the lipping to appropriate pitch becomes uncomfoertable.
Now, does anybody know of a cheap tuner is yet available which has tempered/non tempered, and stretched octave capapbilit? I think they may be available for those piano tuners who need them. If we normally play with a piano then to check while practicing alone we should use a normal tempered tuner but with stretched octaves, but if we play in say a chamber music group we should be checking against a non tempered scale, probably, and I'm not sure whether that should have stretched octaves to meet our hearing expectations or not. If I tune my piccolo's top notes with a tuner they will be perceived as flat most of the time.
Tuning is an exceedingly complex subject.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-04-13 15:30
Daniel,
We are obviously dealing with a young developing player for whom a tuner may very well be a useful aid.
At my gig last night we got started to play and the director stopped us and had to get the flutes to re-tune. They tuned to the first chair flute (his wife) and were about 4 to 8 cents sharp. She said "we have to tune a little sharp for it to sound right" (really... and he accepted it). The second flute reached back and took my turner a few minutes later and the flutes finished the evening in tune (halleluja)!
Why would you look dumb? The oboe player sits there with her tuner on as she plays the tuning note. My tuner sits on my stand and bothers no one (besides me) and helps me to see the horn starting to go sharper as it warms up before I can hear it. I would rather catch that before I can hear it than <b>after</b> everyone can hear it. You know what really looks dumb... I carry a tuning fork and sometimes plug it into my ear to tune to that... looks like Martin the Martian... at least it get the director laughing... and me in tune. That fork only does 440 and can't adjust to different pitches or to different notes like the Korg, .
Generally, no one ever sees the tuner, because you slip it onto your stand, except the French Horns behind you. You really want them to see it because maybe they would get one and make life easier for everyone else! (^:
>You would look stupid going to orchestra with a tuner....
> would you say to the oboist... YO man, you're out of tune !
Better than the oboist saying "YO man...CLARINET... you're out of tune!"
Lastly after 35 years of playing I haven't developed perfect ears yet, please tell us how to do that.
Regards to everyone, Terry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-04-13 15:36
I went back and re-read. She says "after 20 years". So maybe we are not dealing with a "young, developing player", just one who wants to play better. Most of us want to do better. I stand by the rest of my comments, please explain where I am wrong!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-04-13 16:28
I use an older Korg Digital tuner DT-1. It also is about the size of a cassette tape. It has an LED needle meter in concert pitch and will tell you what note you're playing . It can give you a pitch to whatever note you want, but I don't use that (annoying electronic tones). I can also calibrate it for whatever frequency I need (e.g. A=440 or 442) It cost me about $80 and I've had it for about 5 years. Very durable and accurate.
As for Dan's posting, I like my tuner to help me develop my ear. The more I use the tuner, the less I HAVE to use it. Learning to distinguish between PITCH and TONE has been a struggle. I might have a dark tone, but a high pitch. I need a tuner usually to help me correct my pitch. I also use a "Click" tuning barrel occasionally to help assist in my tuning. I'm still a student, and I need to use the things that will help me be a better player.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-13 16:45
I find a tuner indispensable when working on instruments. All by myself, in my basement and without perfect pitch, I cannot tell by ear alone if any given note is within +/- 5 cents of 'in tune'. I absolutely have to have a tuner to allow my to adjust each note on an instrument, so that later the player can use his/her ear to produce the final, "musical" tuning while playing in an ensemble.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Shelly
Date: 2001-04-13 20:10
I appreciate everyone's advice. I am just getting back into playing the clarinet after not playing for 10 years. Prior to that, I played for 16 years. (I got married and had 4 kids, boom boom boom boom! What can I say, the clarinet sorta took a back seat!)
Anyway, I need a tuner to help me get back on track. And Like I said, I am also working with this Eb soprano flute which is a completely new instrument to me. (I play clarinet, piano, recorder and now learning the soprano flute).
As far as playing my ear, I just can't do it. I am completely incompetent in this area. I sit in utter amazement when the piano tuner comes and tunes the piano by ear. He tunes the A above middle C with a tuning fork and does the rest by ear. A true artist!
I believe that a tuner would help me.
Shelly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2001-04-13 22:11
While I agree we must all constantly be listening while playing so that we all play together, it makes it a lot easier if we all start from the same solid base. The tuner allows us to do that.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jim
Date: 2001-04-14 04:55
It was an oboist with superb pitch who recomended the CA-20 to me. He used it to suppliment his ear because it was easier to show others how far they were off.
A slight word of warning... I've found that when the battery is weak, the CA-20 lies.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-04-14 04:57
I buttonholed the oboe plyer in the orchestra after our gig tonight and asked if she feels insulted when I bring my tuner to orchestra. She got a real good laugh out of that one. She said she likes that we can use the electronic tuner to check other notes as well as the A or Bb we tune to.
So if you feel it looks dumb or is insulting when you are just trying to stay in tune, then don't take it out of your case (or don't buy one). No one will sue you!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-04-14 10:04
Hello again,
I have noticed that people have not accepted totally my philosophy about tuning.
I agree that not everyone had perfect pitch (I don't have perfect pitch), and that not everyone can hear if a note is out of tune.
All of this you can train. Their are exercices which will enable you to have perfect pitch.
Ex :
In 2000, I went to a band & choir festival in Vienna (Austria). We were really lucky since we had a complete symphonic wind band, and most amazing invited conductors / composers (Anthony Maiello from George Mason Uni as guest conducor/ Robert Spring as guest composer).
Basically, all high school students from 14 - 18 years old.
Mr Maiello, at the first rehearsal told us we would all have perfect pitch at the end of the 5 day intensive rehearsing. The days used to be splitted into 4 rehearsal, and each time warming up.
Everytime we warmed up he would ask us (tutti) to sing a concert A (without having any reference from an instrument). First day we manged to a B, next day, we got to an A, and a B (Oops), but third, fourth and fifth day we got the concert A everytime.... and from that moment, you could ask any musician of the band, to sing an A, and it would be right everytime. I'm not talking about professionals or anything... just high school students...
Something else I wanted to point out. CHOIRS ! do they all have a tuners when they sing ? No they just listen to others and themselves, and decide if they have the same tuning and if not they adjust.
Music exists since thousands of years, and tuners just about 30 years (not even sure about that)... Why should one be so usefull ?
Then finally. I heard someone telling piano tuners used electronic tuners.
Not at all. it's ridiculous, a good piano tuner uses his ears, and special techniques. I have a friend who is piano fanatic. This guy used to be professor of mechanics at university college London. He once tried to tune his piano using an ossiloscope and different measuring tools. He spent three days working on it... And at the end it was even more out of tune than it was before.
I have myself got a korg tuner, which I used at the time at band (13- 18 year old musicos). It was usefull indeed, because during a concert, I would be in tune with the others for the five first minutes of the concert (the conductor used to go around and tune all the instruments of the band). But then, everyone had in their minds.. o.k. I'm in tune, I'm gonna stay in tune. And at the end of the concert, I wouldn't know where to hide.
Anyway, I am not trying to disadvice to buy or use a tuner, but as my clarinet professor, John Davies has always been telling me, "equipment doesn't replace hours of practice).
I would suggest you use a piano or a tuning stick to check out tuning. With the time it might help you train your ear.
Happy TUNING ! :-)
Dan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-14 15:40
My tuner is an old Korg AT-12, cassette size. I recently had it repaired because the modern equivalent was going to be very expensive. I don't know what the difference is for an expensive one, though. Features seem similar.
Daniel you are still not accepting that individual differences are huge. Of the many facilities in the brain, some just do not operatre well in some (many?) people. You are fortunate indeed if you can do all things with practice. If you SEE a cripple you readily accept that he is not likely to ever be good at high jump. Many of us have invisible crippled parts.
Perhaps it was difficult for pitch crippled people to get to that festival. A tuner is definitely a useful aid to any pitch cripple. And perhaps historically pitch cripples seldom played music.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-14 15:47
Daniel. You said "I heard someone telling piano tuners used electronic tuners. Not at all. it's ridiculous, a good piano tuner uses his ears, and special techniques"
It is not as ridiculous as you think. Electronic devices have got very accurate indeed and have the advantage for accurcy itself. The ear's advantage is to make complex compromises, probably making allowances for enharmonicity.
I dug up this sobering evidence on http://www.ptg.org/archive/pianotech/2000/v2000.n1151
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:32:13 -0700 (MST)
From: "Jim Coleman, Sr." <pianotoo@imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: The tuner controversy
Hi to all:
I had thought that we had put an end to the controversy about whether or
not a piano can be tuned with an ETD. Granted, both contestants in
the Chicago Tune-off were qualified and experienced tuners, yet one piano
was tuned strictly with the electronic tuning devices (RCT and SAT) and
the other piano was tuned strictly by ear (OK, he used hands too).
Before this contest, I had predicted that there wouldn't be a "dime's
worth of difference" between the results. This proved to be true. The
scoring was approx. 52% to 48% as scored by a roomfull of piano
technicians and musicians. Two tests were conducted as the pianos were
switched on the second heat in the contest. This ruled out any
superiority of one piano over the other as far as power or quality is
concerned. This was the most fair test I can imagine to show which
method of tuning is superior. The audience did not know which piano was
tuned by which contestant during the first test. This ruled out any
personality favoritism. The voting results were about the same in both
tests.
As we said above, this contest was between two well experienced concert
tuners. If the test had been between a novice aural tuner and a novice
ETD tuner, the results would have been decidedly in favor of the ETD user.
This was proven in an L.A. chapter meeting many years ago when a
nontuner woman was given minimum instruction with a Yamaha PT3 and her
result was compared with a moderately experienced aural tuner. The
audience had difficulty showing a preference. Just think how much
difference would have been shown if the aural tuner were also a novice.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-04-14 16:11
Gordon,
I do accept individual difference but, I believe that everyone can get to a result. Some might take longer, some might be faster.
The aim of music education is not, getting just the good ones to play well, but to get everyone playing well.
Mediocrity cannot be accpeted. Especially when talking about music.
I believe 99 % of people on this planet can have perfect pitch in two weeks.
why replace a brain by a machine ? (talking about an Electronic tuner)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2001-04-14 16:41
Daniel Bouwmeester wrote:
>
> ... I believe 99 % of people on this planet can have perfect pitch
> in two weeks.
Perfect pitch to which band or orchestra's standard. Some of these groups tune deliberately sharper than others.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2001-04-14 19:10
Daniel:
You write "Mediocrity cannot be accpeted."
Unfortunately, in a world where everyone is "excellent" then, by definition, "excellent" becomes "mediocre". As a high school science instructor with 24 years experience, I can assure you that there are individuals who are talented in particular areas and those who, no matter how hard they work, are not talented. I know that there are some of my students who do not need to go to college or beyond in order to be happy with their lives. Even in that context, we have one of the highest percentages in our area for students successfully completing college educations.
You give the impression that you have considerable self confidence and ability. For that I admire you. However, you are also young with considerable room to add real world experience. I firmly believe that each individual should set high standards for himself/herself. However, the reality is that a high standard for one individual may just be the beginning for another. That does not mean that the less able individual is any less worthy.
You are very fortunate indeed if you and those you play with are able to learn perfect pitch. In high school I actively participated in a music program which won many, many awards for excellence. The jazz band, symphonic band and orchestra all used a tuner (considerably more than 30 years ago). The choir used a pitch pipe. Yes, we constantly tuned to each other as we played, but the tuner allowed us to start at a common point. We did have a couple of members with perfect pitch and with their example, many of us were able to considerably improve -- but none of us ever truly attained their standard.
You also said "Everytime we warmed up he would ask us (tutti) to sing a concert A".
Were you ever each asked to sing a concert A solo? If not, how can you say you did not just learn the ballpark pitch (close enough to do the job when there was no standard for comparison) along with who's pitch you should adjust to when asked to respond tutti?
Personally, I am thankful for a world of differences. We need some individuals with greater abilities than the rest of us in order to help us establish our own goals and standards. At the same time, I don't believe those of us who reamin in the masses should be viewed with any distain because of our lack of talent. Many of us know that our talent is limited, but keep on just because we enjoy what we are doing. If there is a tool that will allow us to reach a little higher level of mediocrity, why not use it?
Congratulations on your level of achievement. I wish you continued success. Just lighten up a bit on those with less talent who play only because they love the instrument. I'm sure you don't show distain for someone with a broken leg using crutches rather than walking upright. Why show distain for those of us who need a crutch with an instrument we love.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jim
Date: 2001-04-15 04:43
Daniel,
An accompanied choir pulls its pitches from the accompianment (if an instrument is not doubling the part.) An acapella choir is usually given starting pitch(s) from an instrument or a pitch pipe. Often this is done quietly and discretly so as not to be noticed from the audience. Singing acapella is very difficult, and oft times the choir can deviate from the written key by as much as a minor third by the end of the work (usually on the flat side.) Usually the director will give a signal that the choir is slipping down to make a correction. (The director I most often sing for gestures upward with his left thumb.)
From years of singing and tuning a clarinet I can reliably sing A (concert) (440) but I don't trust myself to tune to it, I formerly used an A tuning fork, but now use a tuner. (I use the fork to confirm the accuracy of the tuner though.) My teacher in college had an A bar mounted on the studio wall and required me to ring it by sympathetic vibration to confirm that I was in tune.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
