 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-21 20:18
I saw a bit of a free video on youtube from Saxgourmet about how to reface mouthpieces. The equipment seems minimal and the procedures seem very similar to other things I have done in my life including making bamboo bows for Indian fighter kites, woodworking, simple electronics etc.. I mean this in the sense of slow intuitive and methodical use of basic tools to gain a particular effect. It seems like all you need are a mouthpiece glass, some feeler gauges, a flat surface to tape down sandpaper and some tiny files to get inside the bore. Is there any really good video course I can get which is specific to clarinet mouthpieces? I gather that the goals in sax mouthpieces are different from that of clarinet.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-02-21 22:33
.... and an incredibly good set of "ears". IMHO, if you make a small adjustment and can not precisely hear how the change affected the minute change in overtones of the sound, I sense futility in the future.
I believe the absolute best refacers have an uncanny ability to detect the presence or absence of important overtones necessary for a quality sound.
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Author: GaryH
Date: 2014-02-22 06:57
Good tools, good eyes, and the ability to recognize what you are looking at. Look at and measure everything on a favorite mouthpiece, get some junk mouthpieces to practice on and try to make them play as close to your favorite as possible. In my opinion you should never work on another's mouthpiece unless you know what you are doing. It's one thing to screw up something of yours, but something entirely different to screw up somebody else's mouthpiece.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-02-22 10:06
The refacing videos really don't explain how to do it and the few very expert refacers are not going to divulge how they really do it. Many who claim to reface mouthpieces are doing a certain amount of guesswork and don't apparently have the tools that can get the job done. Perhaps a job in the Vandoren factory would be a way to learn it. One could practice for years and still not have good results if one does not know what to do.
Saxophone facing goals and techniques are quite similar to those for clarinets.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-23 01:13
Wes is right in saying the goals and techniques are similar (probably even identical)l.
However the "optimum" curve shape does vary between sax and clarinet.
Many sax refacers say that the correct curve for a sax is a simple radial.
However for clarinet the shape tends to be more complex with elleiptical components.
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Author: TAS
Date: 2014-02-23 06:08
And I thought shaving a preparing a reed was a big deal.......
TAS
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2014-02-24 01:17
Good teacher + experience.
Without an experienced mouthpiece craftsmen as a teacher, it will be a slow process to learn the basics, and an even slower process to get decent results. Learning each part of the mouthpiece, what purpose they serve, and how they all inter-relate is an ongoing process. Experience working with many types of mouthpieces is the only way to learn how things really work. Making a zinner is simple enough. Learning how to reface mouthpieces with a good understanding of the process, techniques, and ways of testing is another story.
Even for those who are naturally good at working with their hands in a mechanical way will not necessarily get very far on their own.
Getting tools that measure properly will be difficult if you have no real reference. Tip wands can measure very differently, one may measure a 1.00mm tip and another wand on the same mouthpiece can measure a 1.15mm tip. Calibrating measuring equipment (once you are comfortable with how the measuring process works) takes some trial and error along with a frame of reference.
The tools and techniques of the trade are not all self-explanatory either.
My point is, without a competent teacher, you will waste a lot of time and energy. It is possible to learn how to do parts of it just on your own, but one lesson, in my opinion, can equal what you would learn on your own over the span of a year or years.
The basics of measuring and adjusting facings\tip openings (properly calibrated so you know your results are correct) can be learned by trial and error on your own, albeit not easy, and can allow someone to tinker around with working on different mouthpieces to see how facings result in differences in sound and feel.
Without consulting with experience and a quality product, it's going to be very difficult to learn. To get to a point where you can do a full refacing\reworking of a mouthpiece takes more time and patience than most realize. As I mentioned, making a zinner play is easy but learning the process and techniques in a holistic way is a different story.
If you embark on this journey, read all you can on the topic and be very patient. If you are lucky enough to live near someone in the business, see if they will share their experience and expertise. I don't know of anyone in Miami, but check around and see.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-24 06:20
Yes, I very much would like to find someone in Miami to take lessons with. I'm hoping someone on the board will step forward and let themselves be known. I also travel to NYC. Maybe there is someone available there.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2014-02-24 08:59
I know a guy in florida, but can't for the life of me remember where. I'll get back to you when I remember where he is.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-24 22:01
If I am to understand the facing geometry of any mouthpiece, it is essentially this: The arc that is described by the mouthpiece facing from the moment that the facing leaves the flat table to the final point of the tip is exactly a small section of a circle. If this is true and I understand it well, the circumference of this circle is large if the tip opening is small and the lay is long, and theecircumferance of this circle is small if the tip opening is large and the lay is short. Of course mouthpiece facings are an interesting combination of shorter lays and small tip openings or longer lays and large tip openings. Additionally facings are also composed of thicker tips and thick rails, and much of the sound characteristics are all about baffles, chambers and bores. One internet site stated that some clarinet facings are not circumferances but parabolic, but even though I don't have the computer databases analyzed yet, it seems initially that facings are circumferences and not parabolas. A parabolic facing would require the tip of the reed to move a comparatively longer distance in relation to the heart of the reed than if we examined the same tip opening and a longer lay of a circumference facing.
I've been examining all the available info on the mouthpiece builders website, but I've yet to find a downloadable spreadsheets used by mouthpiece refacers either for free or for purchase. These database programs are complex mathmatically because they need to take into account distance along the facing, and readings on a feeler gauge. This is not a chart I'd like to be playing with freehand with pencil and graph paper. Where do I obtain such a program so I can begin to experiment with various facing curves?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-24 18:38
1. The first priority is not a spreadsheet or computer - it's the refacing tools and lots and lots and still more practice.
Walking before running is usually the best approach.
2. Clarinet lays are NOT a simple small section of a circle - if they were then machine production would be ultra simple and repeatable so human intervention would hardly be needed.
Also for any given lay length and opening there would only ever be one curve.
The Selmer D lay and HS** (from memory) for example have identical length/opening but are very different curves
3. There are spreadsheets etc on the Yahoo group and the group is essential point for any aspiring refacer - but point 1. still applies
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-02-24 19:00
Too some extent the geometry of the facing curve has to reflect the geometry of the reed design, which is one reason why "a certain facing" may not work well/easily with "a certain reed model", but might be excellent with another. [of course, as most commercially produced reeds have a degree of inconsistency within the mass produced output, there is also a good chance that within a box of "non ideal" reeds there WILL be something that works with the "non ideal" facing. sigh]
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-02-25 06:54
(Disclaimer - I sell Chedeville and Kaspar trademarked brand mouthpieces)
I count among my friends many of the custom mouthpiece makers working today. I am also not a novice at statistics and mathematical modeling and have also done some futile attempts at modeling the interactions of variables that influence mouthpiece performance. Ultimately there may be a model.
After all of these attempts I have come to the conclusion that mouthpiece making is an art form and at present it is impossible to model the interactions of so many variables and variable interactions that influence mouthpieces. It also amazes me that most of the well known makers have different approaches at producing an excellent playing mouthpiece. Each influences a number of variables in individual ways which are not common to other makers. I am not aware of a database of measurements of all the variables of any particular mouthpiece maker let alone a number of makers.
The compromise that I use is to accurately measure all of the aspects of a particular mouthpiece and reproduce those measurements using CNC machining technology. I do use a professional to apply the final tweaks to each and every mouthpiece. However, if there were one set of measurements for the "perfect" mouthpiece for all players there would only be one needed.
I have spent hours watching and asking questions of mouthpiece makers and determined, at least in my capabilities, that their personal talent plus years of experience and learning from other makers is not notable as a formula. The ideal interaction of mouthpiece maker and customer face to face is a most amazing experience to view with minute alterations that perfect a mouthpiece to a players needs and capability. This comes from experience and not a model.
As in any field of endeavor the next generation of custom makers will come from those that log the time and seek the knowledge to learn from current and notable historical greats. It will always be an evolving need as clarinets and playing styles change.
L. Omar Henderson
www.ChedevilleMP.com
www.DoctorsProd.com
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-25 16:03
I have no doubt that mouthpiece making is an art taking years to learn, but I was referring to learning the skill of mouthpiece refacing which no more that taking the original measurements and recreating what that mouthpiece had before the inevitable wear and tear that can make a mouthpiece less that perfectly functional. I believe this skill also involves doing simple things like evening up rail differences, straightening the tip and making it adhere to current reed shapes, smoothing the bore, flattening the table and eliminating the vertical surface that sits at the bottom to the window leading to the chamber (putting this surface in a more aerodynamic state). This is more of a hand finishing skill sometimes involving creating what the manufacturer obviously intended but was unable to create due to economic restraints.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-02-25 20:45
Disclaimer as before.
I wish you good luck. I believe that many mouthpiece refacers would say that like most types of restoration work that it takes practice and experience to bring all the parameters and variables back to harmony on a worn or warped mouthpiece. Remember that removing material or remodeling certain areas of a mouthpiece will obviously affect some other variables which may have to be tweaked also. Tips and rails are among the most critical variables.
L. Omar Henderson
www.ChedevilleMP.com
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