 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-11-02 23:47
Yup. The wonderful new upper joint for my Tosca has cracked. It seems I can never escape this darn cracking business... urgh.
I got it to my instrument tech a few minutes before his shop closed, and though he couldn't do anything about it right then, he thought it was odd that it cracked at an angle, rather than straight up & down with the clarinet. The crack isn't bad at all-- just an extremely thin hairline crack that doesn't even go into a tone hole.
My question is this-- Does this make the crack particularly bad? Why would it crack at an angle? Could the crack be more susceptible to spreading if it's at an angle?
Buffet should be excited. They're going to get a piece of my mind on Monday. This should NOT happen.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-03 00:04
I presume the crack follows the grain patten - not all grain runs straight along the length of the joint depending how the billet was sawn.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-11-03 00:56
Hi Beth,
Sorry for your frustration. At the outset I would suggest you need to modify that last thought: cracking can happen with any model of wooden clarinet. This doesn't make it any easier.
Please don't forget that Buffet has stood by you so far, and that spending big money on one of their models does not guarantee you a crack-proof instrument. They stood by you so far, don't burn any bridges by over-expressing your frustration.
The crack as you describe it is worrisome to me, primarily because it doesn't follow what I know in my experience.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-11-03 01:32
Chris, that's what I assumed... but, as Tobin says, this isn't very common. Do you think the crack will be more susceptible to getting worse if it's at an angle?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-11-03 02:24
This cracking business worries me too. That's why I pledge to myself only to buy well used, time-proven instruments. It's less likely that an instrument will crack if it hasn't in 5 years or more of steady playing.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-11-03 03:58
Wood of course varies in hardness. Knots in the wood are the normal cause of cracks going into different direactions. Knots are very hard. If a piece of wood is hard on one line of the grain and soft along another, well something has to give, even if it's been cured for 2 or more years. Not all grain is a perfect line. A crack can cross all over the horn and the same crack can reappear unless it's been pinned, like the old way of repairing.
It's just part of the nature of this piece of wood.
If the horn keeps cracking around the same location, I've drilled a small hole just before and after the crack starts. This will keep the crack from spreading or cracking again. The hole takes away stress on the grain. Have a repairman do this of course.
I got this idea from being in several earthquakes. You can't just patch up the cracks in your house, because they will continue to spread. But if you drill a hole to release the pressure, the cracks from the quakes stop. Even after other quakes hit the old repaired cracks remain sealed.
Kind of cool.
Earthquakes can beat up your house pretty well. The last big one I was in took out a bridge a few miles away and sadly a cop went off the break in the bridge.
The repair of our house came to $30,000 and I did the work - just supplies.
Well not one single crack came back and we've had at least 20 minor quakes since that time.
I wouldn't think repairmen know about this trick unless they live out here in California.
Weather changes play havoc on the pressure of wood, so without going into more dragged on details if a horn cracks several times in the same area you need to figure out where the stress point is and release it. Then pin it. Glues won't release the stress.
Hope this helps.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-11-03 11:45
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> I wouldn't think repairmen know about this trick unless they
> live out here in California.
Or if they lived in Philadelphia and looked at the Liberty Bell. The technique of drilling holes at the ends of cracks to relieve stress has been known for a very, very long time.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-11-03 11:54
Your not the only one. This seems to be a major problem with Buffet Toscas. Seems that either they are too keen to get the instruments manufactured so they don't let the billets properly season.
A colleague of mine plays Toscas and has had to have the top joint of his Bb replaced (free of charge from Buffet) three times! This I believe to be a problem with mass market instruments.
My Eaton Elites have never cracked in the 11 years they've been played and I've played them in many places across the world.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2012-11-03 12:52
The fact is that it takes 60 years for Grenadilla or Mpingo trees to grow to maturity and another 6 years to cure. Forrests have been depleted so trees are harvested early and in combination with kiln curing have contributed to the wood on todays instruments to crack especially if subjected to unstable and quick changes in humidity and the lack of humidity.
Post Edited (2012-11-03 12:55)
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-11-03 13:12
So many of my colleagues & both my clarinet instructors have had clarinets (of many different brands) crack over the years. Most of the time, there is nothing that can be done to prevent it. I don't think it's a Tosca problem. I think it's a problem with any wooden instrument. I think the only way I could have prevented this is to have asked for an upper joint in the greenline material.
Bob, after what happened last time... if gluing doesn't help the clarinet, then Carl isn't going to even mess with pins and will go straight to carbon fiber bands again. I just wish that didn't make the clarinet look so ugly. :(
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-03 13:48
They shouldn't make things look ugly if they're well hidden - the carbon fibre bands can be set fairly deep into slots cut into the joint and then covered over with superglue and wood dust, then papered and polished up so they're not noticeable.
I did this not so long ago on a Buffet full Boehm and a couple of Centered Tone bells which you could only see under strong light. Others have done the same and had successful results - Clarnibass (Nitai) did the same on a Selmer bass, so the results shouldn't ever look ugly if they're disguised well.
Have a read and check out the photos in this thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=355348&t=355348
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-11-03 14:08
Sorry Beth,
Have to disagree it is a Buffet problem of recent time. I know people who play many "brands" and this seems to only happen to the Buffet Toscas. For me that's too much of a coincidence. The same thing happened to the principal clarinet of the Tonhalle Orchestra when he got his Toscas and I know others too.
I've never had a problem on any of my wooden instruments, even those that are older than me.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2012-11-03 14:10
I have seven clarinets of about 1830 to 1988 vintage and standard to top quality (Carl Kruspe, Arthur Uebel, J.Püchner, W.Dietz). One of them (B flat from about 1890) has two hairline cracks in the bell, two (E flat, boxwood, 1830ies resp. C, Grenadilla about 1980) have lengthwise cracked barrels. All the long joints luckily are intact. I tried to stop cracks by the above mentioned sort of 1mm “counterbores” which I filled with thin epoxy and till now, after about two years, this seems to work. Btw., I learned this method with acrylic window panes. Transverse or diagonal cracks, as Bob Bernardo points out, result from irregular grain which isn’t really a sign of top quality, at least in the long joints. On the other hand, my very fine Bb from 1988 (played almost daily) has two knots there and no cracks.
M.W.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-11-03 14:59
When a tree is felled the impact shock when it falls can cause small transverse breaks in the wood fibres, so that these discontinuities are at right angles to the grain. These cracks are called shakes, and normally logs with them are milled so that they are not present in the milled billets. Unfortunately, these shakes are sometimes almost invisible to the eye and only become apparent in the finished product. I've steam-bent what seemed to be perfect timber for boat and aircraft building only to have it crack at one of these shakes when light pressure is applied to the wood. This may be the cause of the crack across the instrument.
Tony F.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-11-03 21:06
I had never played a plastic clarinet until my recent fun Clarineo. I have owned wooden clarinets since 1976 and have never had a single crack. I do live in the UK and perhaps this may make a difference? Maybe I am a second-hand rose as the only new clarinets I have ever had are my F A Uebels. Mostly I have let other people do the hard work and do the playing in period for me. My Uebels, my B and H 1010s and my Peter Eatons are all to die for in their own way. Sadly I remember the demise of B and H and the quality control issues they had back in the 80s. They had the monopoly in the UK for a long time and sadly I think they got too big for their boots. I trialled Buffet RCs back then but wasn't convinced. Mmmmmmmmmm maybe complacency can be a killer to a market leader? Wish I had a crystal ball ;-)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-11-03 22:11
Okay, I live in a cave (and summer in a tent) somewhere in the Alps, and I must admit I've never seen a clarinet crack.
Maybe Paula has a point there, maybe the different ambients contribute to cracking? Maybe not the wood but maybe the ubiquituous air conditioning is the culprit?
--
Ben
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-11-03 22:46
Beth, if you have it pinned, which I WOULDN'T do in your case, there is no reason why a repairman can't hide the pin hole marks. It's not hard to do.
However, subconsciously, if you keep this very expensive horn these cracks may stick in the back of your mind knowing that you spent around $6000 or so and the darn thing has so many stress cracks and fractures. It's not right to put up with this defect.
If I were having your issues I'd ask for a new upper joint. I would be a bit PO'ed after spending so much money. It's simply not right and Buffet needs to make you a very happy musician.
If you need Buffets address let me know. Before sending it to them, if you decide to send it, let them know you want it shipped back overnight, because you have a mess of concerts coming up.
As for carbon fiber bands I have very mixed feelings about this. Heres why...
It is my strong belief that wood vibrates in one direction, the direction on the natural grain fibers. Putting on a carbon fiber band "Could," effect the natural vibrational charactistics of your hand selected horn. Carbon fibers may change the direction of the vibration or stop the vibration's direction totally. I went to Califoria Institute of Technology and I studied vibrations, but not in your case or with wood in general. I can't make a positive assessment other than what I just said about the grain vibrating thoughout the whole clarinet.
The best of luck to you.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-11-03 23:20)
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-11-03 23:02
I thought this was all over after having the upper joint replaced once before. Guess not.
Illinois weather is dangerous in the sense that it fluctuates so much and so fast. No, we don't normally have extremes in weather, but our weather is never stable. Literally everyone in my studio except one person who has bought a brand new clarinet has dealt with cracking at one point or another. One of my clarinet instructors has a Taplin-Weir clarinet and has had the upper joint replaced 3 times because it kept cracking on her.
Unfortunately, I'm in no position to buy a whole new clarinet. Whether Toscas are more prone to cracking than other top-of-the-line clarinets is irrelevant-- it's cracked, and I have to live with it. It's possible that Buffet could replace it again, but I'm not buying a new clarinet because of this. I love the way the instrument plays. If I have to deal with some ugly "tiger stripes", but still have a beautiful-sounding clarinet, then so be it.
Here is a new twist to this whole thing-- could all of this been caused by me never oiling the clarinet? I've been told that Buffet's clarinets are (supposedly) treated with oil in the factory and shouldn't need oil. I dishonored what I was told and swabbed the inside of the bore with bore oil anyway after the crack was filled this morning. The bore looks considerably darker and less chalky.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-11-04 00:01
I can't imagine why carbon fibre should affect the vibration of the clarinet, after all most clarinets are fitted with tough metal rings on virtually all joints already and some top line models actually use carbon fibre bands in place of the metal rings.
Carbon fibre is immensely strong in comparison to it's mass and provides an "all round" support for the joint should the stresses try to move elsewhere.
p.s. if your bore looks parched and light then it surely does need oiling.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2012-11-04 03:05
<<>...could all of this been caused by me never oiling the clarinet? I've been told that Buffet's clarinets are (supposedly) treated with oil in the factory and shouldn't need oil.>
Somewhere in the Buffet website it says, or said, that "new" Buffets should not be oiled.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2012-11-04 03:08
<<...If the horn keeps cracking around the same location, I've drilled a small hole just before and after the crack starts. This will keep the crack from spreading or cracking again. The hole takes away stress on the grain. >>
This clearly does not work for clarinet timber. It is very common for a crack to go to a significant hole, i.e. a tone hole, then continue on out the other side. And often then through the next tone hole or two, or pillar hole etc.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-11-05 03:22
I'm afraid that I can't give you any advice about the crack, but you also asked about oiling.
It has often been pointed out that the upper joint is constantly subjected to warm, moist air. Over time, the upper part of the bore in this joint can begin to have a dried-out appearance, and I think it's this part that needs the most frequent oiling. I've noticed that the bore of the lower joint and bell don't dry out as quickly.
Speaking of Buffet and oiling recommendations . . . when my R-13 was purchased in 1971, the store's repair tech (the store was an established Buffet dealer) told me, "I've had my Buffet for 35 years, and I've never oiled it." Still, the clarinet came with a small container of Buffet bore oil. I had other oil that I'd occasionally use, but for some reason, this Buffet oil was never opened, and it was put away and forgotten. Some of us save odd things! I happened to find it while looking for something else, and here's what it says:
New formula from France.
Draw a lightly moistened swab through the instrument. Repeat the procedure several times. New woodwinds should be swabbed monthly, older instruments twice yearly.
Contents One-half ounce
Carl Fischer, New York
No. R-802
I guess the wood in my R-13 was treated well because it never cracked. I wonder when Buffet began recommending against oiling, and I wonder how this "new formula" differed from their older formula!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-11-05 05:39
The method of drilling a hole before and after the crack is common knowledge on a repair forum. However, I don't like it so much for several reasons:
1) What Gordon mentioned.
2) I've seen some cracks where this was done and actually most had the crack continue past the hole (the others were brought for other reasons).
In addition, when this does work, it is actually impossible to know this helped at all and it is entirely possible that the crack wouldn't continue regardless. The statistics I've seen in (2) support that the hole makes no significant difference if any.
Re carbon fiber banding, it has never changed the way a clarinet played. It is visible more than other repairs but it's not that ugly and visible.
The crack being at an angle is not particularly bad i.e. not more than a straight crack. It's less common but not more worrying.
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Author: Ron Scholer
Date: 2012-11-06 10:25
Are you using some sort of a humidifier inside your case? If so are you putting it inside the bore of the horn?
If the answer is no to these 2 questions you may want to pick up 3 with a double case. 1 for each horn, 1 for the reed area.
When warming up your horn blow air slowly with all of the keys pressed down for perhaps 3 to 5 minutes. This will warm up your horn slowly.
When using bore oil are you putting it on the outside of the clarinet too?
Maybe it swells up too fast inside putting stress on the outside.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-11-06 18:46
If your clarinet is really cold, e.g. been carrying to a gig in winter weather, then it is vital to warm up the exterior of the instrument BEFORE blowing any warm air into the bore.
It's the interior trying to expand whilst the exterior isn't yet ready to move that is a major cause of cracking.
Wrap your hands around the barrel and upper joint and/or keep it close to your body under your coat if you are in a real hurry to play.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-06 19:04
I know someone with an old R13 (from the '70s) who leaves it locked in their car while they're at work in all weather. It's also kept in a case that only has it split into two halves, plays it while it's still cold and then after playing, they just run a pullthrough down the bore, spit it into two halves and put it back in the case, then back into their cold car afterwards until next time they play it.
What surprises me is it hasn't cracked!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-11-06 19:06
Chris, that is frightening! D:
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-06 19:13
I definitely won't recommend anyone should treat any instrument like this!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2012-11-06 20:29
They probably are contracted from Buffet to see how durable the old R13's really are. LOL
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-11-07 16:12
I've a cracked and repaired Buffet RC, and there are absolutely no symptoms of that in the way it plays.
Maybe we who are inclined toward Toscas should stick to the Greenline variants.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-07 22:22
Bear in mind the weakest point of any Greenline instrument is the middle tenon, so be sure they don't get subjected to any stress while assembled.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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