 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-05 21:44
Interesting. I'd like to see Mark Nuccio take over as principal but I suspect the position may be vacant for a while. Hopefully not for as long as it was in Chicago.
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2012-03-05 22:13
Does this also mean that Ricardo won't be recording the Nielsen concerto as a part of the NYPO's Nielsen project?
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Author: RachelB4
Date: 2012-03-05 22:59
I am so happy about this! Hopefully it will be good for the Philly orch, too
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-05 23:35
Maybe I'm missing something in all the 'good feelings' about this.
Isn't this exactly what happened in Chicago? Weren't they really pissed off about it? Is Ricardo Morales not capable of making a decision? When is the next New York audition?
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-06 00:43
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Isn't this exactly what happened in Chicago? Weren't they
> really pissed off about it? Is Ricardo Morales not capable of
> making a decision? When is the next New York audition?
I don't think he ever actually accepted the Chicago job though. IIRC he won the audition but then turned down the job. I suspect the people at the NYPO are a bit more tweaked than the people in Chicago. In my opinion Morales waffling really isn't that big of a deal.
It's certainly not on the same level as Harold Wright winning the 2nd chair in the Boston Symphony and then stating he was only interested in the principal job, a move which likely hastened the departure of Gino Cioffi.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-06 03:25
It's all about family, I'm proud of Ricardo for putting family first. He has a lovely wife that playes violin in the Philly orchestra and a beautiful young daughter. He gave NY a shot and must have realized it would be to stressful on him and his family. I haven't talked to him about it yet but that's my opinion. I was a little surprise he accepted the NY job but I understood why he did with what's going on in Philly but I'm not surprised that he changed his mind after computing for several concerts this year. He has a great career and a beautful family. He did the right thing for him and them. Besides, it's easier for me to hear him in Philly than in NY. ESP eddiesclarinet.com (One of his teachers, and damn proud)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-06 07:48
So the work of the orchestral management of two orchestras and the cost of all those auditions was just one man's attempt at making the right decision for his family? Where was this guy's family when he decided to audition in the first place?
I think it's crude and unprofessional.
In my current line of work it would be called DESERTION, punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
I suppose if the majority of the Union is ok with it then it's ok. It just rubs me the wrong way.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-03-06 08:09
Recardo is a very cool guy. Had him over one day for burgers with some others. I'm sure this wasn't an easy decision for him. He's not looking at the most money he can make, but outside of Philly there are really wonderful places to live, such as the white picket fence style. NYC is pretty costly, Philly is much less, with a decent subway system. However it's nothing like the subways in NYC. Maybe that was his reason.
I don't blame him for passing up Chicago. It's friggin cold. Mitchell Lurie held the position for about a year in the 40's and left because of the weather and and the wind found himself leaving for sunny Los Angeles. I think Gennusa took over and I have no idea who came after Gennusa left. I could be wrong with Gennusa, but I don't think so.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-03-06 13:32
Remember that the Philly bankruptcy was looming for several years, and from what I hear the orchestra hated Eschenbach. These almost certainly motivated RM to explore the Chicago and NY openings.
He cited "family reasons" for staying in Philadelphia. Perhaps that means that the NYP didn't make an offer to his wife.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-06 13:58
Paul, as I said, I haven't talked to Ricardo yet about it and so this is MY take as to why he turned those jobs down. He didn't actually audition for NY as what we think of as an audition. He was invited to perform a few weeks with them as they have been doing with many other clarinetists for several years and after the first week they offered him a contract. He waited several months before accepting the NY position and as far as I know did so because Philly looked like it was going under, declaring bankruptcy.. Things were looking pretty bad there. It's my take that it appearded to be workable for him when he decided to take the NY job but that after commuting for several weeks of concerts, oveer a few months, realizing the cost of keeping his home in Philly and an apartment in NY and what ever other personnal things came to be he dicided it just wasn't worth it. Philly has stabalized and perhaps made him a good offer, I don't know that for sure, but I don't believe he accepted the NY job with the intention of turning it down. Chacigo was a different story. I believe he auditioned for that job with the intentions of accepting it if he won the job and turned it down for reasons of his own. Could have been the cold, the salary, his teaching position, the contract terms they offered, he wasn't married then, or any other number of reasons he may have had, I'm not sure. All I know for sure is that he had all intensions of taking that job if he won it, he didn't take the audition as a tease. Don't assume you know the reason why he turned either job down, none of us know for sure. ESP
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-06 15:53
Real life happens. I once had to choose between an orchestra job and a family situation myself--chose the family and never regretted it. Good for Ricardo if that's what he's done. God Bless him and his family.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2012-03-07 02:07)
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Author: mb190d
Date: 2012-03-06 16:04
re: Genusa leaving Chicago.
My understanding is that Genusa, Sherm Walt (bassoon), and the 1st flute were fired by Fritz Reiner and replaced the next day with Clark Brodie, Lenny Sharrow, and Julie Baker--all coming from the CBS Orchestra. Called "The Saturday Night Massacre".
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-03-06 16:49
I think it is just further proof that nobody could follow Drucker!
;-)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-06 19:54
David you're right on. Of course he didn't take the NY job with the intentions of resigning. Those of us that know him gives him more credit than that.
Ed, Drucker was, is, a great player but Morales is every bit as good and could have easily followed him. It just didn't work out. Morales is a fantastic player period.
Re Gennusa, I played with "Iggy" for about five years and have heard that story before about him being fired but the story he told was that his wife was fired so he quit and accepted the National Symphony job, or the Baltimore Symphony. I know he played in the National but I don't remember if it was before or after Chicago. In any case, that's the story that our then second player told me, he was there when Iggy came to Baltimore. Back in those days there was not that much difference in the length of the seasons and the pay scale. Wow have things changed since those days. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2012-03-06 22:02)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-03-07 00:25
Well, that is my story and I am sticking to it!
;-)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2012-03-07 19:21
Incredible amount of misinformation here!
Harold Wright never auditioned for 2nd clarinet in Boston (or anywhere else).
Cioffi was terminated before he was hired as principal.
Genussa, Walt and Rene Rateau were fired (Saturday Night Massacre) by Rafael Kubelik years before Reiner arrived in Chicago. Had nothing to do with his wife, Dorothy's desire to play in the CSO! Iggy was a marvelous player -- his firing was pure politics.
Genussa was principal clarinet in Washington 1947-49. He was succeeded by Marcellus and then, Wright. He played one season in Baltimore before going to Chicago for one season and returned to Baltimore thereafter.
Happy to refute all these myths!
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-07 19:51
LarryBocaner wrote:
> Incredible amount of misinformation here!
>
> Harold Wright never auditioned for 2nd clarinet in Boston (or
> anywhere else).
> Cioffi was terminated before he was hired as principal.
>
Be careful what you call a myth...
http://clarinetcorner.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/gino-cioffi-harold-wright-and-tuning-with-the-bso/
According to Sherman Friedland:
" It is my feeling that Cioffi simply reached the age of retirement and he was retired, perhaps against his will, nobody knows, but certainly the BSO had more important fish to fry, and that was the acquisition of Harold Wright as Principal. Mr Wright , who was formerly principal with the National Symphony in Washington, DC, was the best orchestral clarinetist, perhaps who ever lived. The position which opened up first, was the second clarinet, which Wright strange as it may sound auditioned for, and won*. He rejected the offer and let it be known that he wanted Principal only. The second position was given to an excellent player, Peter Hadcock. A few years past, Cioffi retired and Harold Wright got the position, which he filled famously for 20 years, dying of a heart attack in Tanglewood, I believe.
* (As to this occurrence I know it to be true, as I was one of those who auditioned for the position. There were many, and the word got around that Wright was upstairs in a special room. For a second clarinet position, this was unusual) "
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2012-03-07 20:55
I'm sticking with "myth!" Peter Hadcock was a member of the Boston Symphony a full five years before Harold Wright arrived in 1970. Pasquale Cardillo was already Second Clarinet in 1970. Harold Wright was my friend, colleague and sometimes carpool buddy 1960-70. I don't know how there could have been an opening for second clarinet in Boston at that time, and I am certain that Harold never auditioned for one. As I heard it from the horse's mouth, his "audition" was more of a coronation. There was dissatisfaction with Cioffi's playing dating back to Leinsdorf's regime continuing into that of William Steinberg.
"The word got around" is not testimony that has much legal standing!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-03-07 21:33
SteveG_CT wrote:
> I wasn't there so I can't confirm the story one way or the
> other but I doubt that Mr. Friedland would put the story in his
> blog if he wasn't confident that it was true.
I wasn't there so I can't confirm the story one way or the other but I doubt that Mr. Bocaner would put the story in his post if he wasn't confident that it was true.
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2012-03-07 21:34
Hadcock was never second clarinet; he was hired as assistant principal/E-flat.
Wright did not have a heart attack at Tanglewood but rather at his home in Vermont.
Gotta love the internet!
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-07 22:50
rmk54 wrote:
> Gotta love the internet!
Indeed. Wouldn't be the first time a story from a seemingly trustworthy source ended up being false. It's quite possible that the story began as a fabricated excuse by a player who didn't make the cut at the audition for the assistant principal job (i.e "I only didn't win because I was up against Harold Wright") and then propagated from there.
Mr. Bocaner's account seems much more likely especially given that the original story I quoted seems to have now been scrubbed from the blog. I retract my earlier statement and apologize for unwittingly spreading unreliable information.
Post Edited (2012-03-07 22:57)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-03-08 03:06
I just got word that Peyton Manning will sign with the N.Y. Phil in the coming days.........
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Author: GBK
Date: 2012-03-08 03:29
Buster wrote:
> I just got word that Peyton Manning will sign with the N.Y.
> Phil in the coming days.........
I heard he was offered the job but decided to pass.
...GBK
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-03-08 04:15
Re all the "rumors/stories"...
It was Professor Plum, with an Eb clarinet, in the concert hall!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-08 04:18
Everybody thinks they know the right story, very intersting. Gordy Miller played 2nd clarinet in Baltimore when Genusa became principal, only one time according to Gordy, Gordy played 2nd for 51 years beginning several years before Iggy joined the orchestra and I only know what Gordy and Iggy told us. Be it a lie or the truth. And you know what, it doesn't really matter a hell of a lot of beans which story is correct does it? Anyone want to arm wrestle over it? ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2012-03-08 04:22)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-03-08 04:18
Interesting thread! Started with Ricardo Morales. Who knows where this thread will take us!
It sure is interesting reading about these great pro's.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-08 11:22
I thought Harold Wright died when he was run over by a car on Huntington St.
No really, that's what I heard.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-08 13:31
Even with the loss of Ricardo, Manning would strain their salary cap. And I'm not sure how well they'd adapt to being a country western group. Also, I don't know whether Gilbert could tolerate the audibles before each downbeat.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2012-03-08 13:33
"I thought Harold Wright died when he was run over by a car on Huntington St."
Sherman Walt was killed in a pedestrian accident -- I don't know what street.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-03-08 13:50
Others beat me to the punch on Walt.
Post Edited (2012-03-08 13:51)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-08 23:29
No one took me up in an arm wrestling match to deterime the truth about something that makes no difference at all. Oh well, I rest my case. ESP :-)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-03-09 00:55
And after lugging around a BC case, you need a rest. In fact, you're likely to get arrested. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
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Author: Clarence Beale
Date: 2012-03-09 16:03
I've got some news folks!
Harold Wright DID play the audition for 2nd clarinet in the Boston Symphony, and he won.
How do I know? When this controversy arose I sent an email message to a friend who knew Harold professionally for many years. Yesterday I got a response. To my astonishment he wrote that he also played the audition. When he arrived at Symphony Hall Harold was there, and he had his clarinet out and was warming up. Harold won the audition. My friend wrote that it was his understanding that Harold told the BSO that he would accept the position if they would promise to move him up to principal clarinet when Cioffi retired. The BSO wouldn't make that promise so Harold didn't accept the job. My friend says he doesn't remember ever discussing the audition with Harold. When he returns home and has access to his address book he is going to call Ruth Wright and ask her what she remembers about the incident.
Interestingly, Sherman Friedland has reposted a modification of the message about this audition which apparently was inadvertently deleted yesterday. The new message contains everything he originally wrote about Harold playing the 2nd clarinet BSO audition and winning.
When did the audition take place? About 1965. There is "A Chronological History of the Clarinet Section of the Boston Symphony Orchestra" on page 37 of the Winter 1987 issue of The Clarinet magazine. It indicates that Valerio was 2nd clarinet from 1950 to 1965. Cardillo was appointed 2nd clarinet in 1965. Prior to that Cardillo played Eb clarinet beginning in 1939. Hadcock was appointed Eb clarinet in 1965 when Cardillo moved to 2nd clarinet.
Sometimes truth is stranger than myth.
Clarence Beale
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2012-03-09 20:26
Well, I guess it is possible! My impression reading Friedland's blog was that the audition was in 1970 and that Cioffi was removed as a result of HW's audition. Might have to do with his use of the word "past" when he meant "passed." If he auditioned for second clarinet in '65 that's a horse of a different color. Was not known to those of us in the NSO.
Is it possible that it was an audition for assistant first (and Eb), given that that is the position that was filled from outside the BSO? The player who was hired -- Hadcock -- assumed that chair -- not second. Makes more sense to me.
The National Symphony in 1965 was a troubled workplace: frequent strikes, a nasty and incompetent conductor and even nastier management. Makes sense that HW wanted out, but not for anything other than a position befitting his genius.
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Author: Clarence Beale
Date: 2012-03-09 21:58
When I talked to my friend on the phone I specifically asked if the audition was for 2nd clarinet or Eb/Assistant Principal. He said it definitely was for 2nd clarinet.
Seems reasonable to me. Valerio is 2nd clarinet and retires in '65. Auditions are held. HW wins but turns down the offer. Cardillo is chosen for the job. That opens up Eb/Assistant Principal. Hadcock is chosen for that position.
I think your description, Larry, of the 1965 NSO troubled workplace definitely provides motivation for HW's unusual action. It would have been a neat move if the BSO had agreed to his conditions. Worth a try.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-14 09:27
Great graphic !!!!
Now that we've come full circle, I have spoken to someone that has more insight into the 'whys.'
There is some competitiveness amongst the big orchestras to coral the best players often dangling a 'standing offer' to the principals of competing groups. So the whole kerfuffle may have been incited by pressure from these orchestras themselves to have Ricardo Morales 'try it out.' Of course the overriding personal considerations winning out in the end only look bad from afar.
I will leave it at that.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-14 13:24
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Maybe Vienna will court him next
>
IIRC he did play with the Berlin Philharmonic as a guest principal a few years ago when their principal job was open. I'm not sure if he was ever offered the job though.
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2012-03-16 01:41
I'm voting for Mark Nuccio to FINALLY get the job.
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-03-16 03:19
as the well-known Peyton has passed on N.Y. and the other, lesser-known, Peyton just went to K.C., perhaps they will give the job to Mark...........
but unfortunately Mark Sanchez (a little bird just told me.........)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-03-17 00:28
by the "Grace" of god the N.Y. Phil will appoint someone..... if only to establish some "Constance-y."
(had to do some research on that one Jack)
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