 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: whangler
Date: 2012-02-26 05:10
New clarinet student here. I'm a 56 y/o male attempting to learn clarinet after years of guitar playing and a hand problem that appears to have ended my ability to play guitar. Clarinet is humbling to say the least but I'm finding some enjoyment in the challenge.
FWIW, I'm working on scale exercises in "F" and "G" from the Rubank Elementary method book. I'm still not playing above the break after 3 months of lessons, and 30 minutes to an hour of daily practice. I am up to the throat Bb using the register key but not beyond.
I have had 2 teachers so far for weekly lessons, and am not particularly satisfied with either.
The first teacher is in incredible player, Masters degree from USC, but he spent pretty much the entire 45 minute lesson talking. During those lessons, I might have had the horn in my mouth 3 minutes max each lesson. Now, I give constructive feedback for a living but don't feel like I should have to give constructive feedback to someone I'm paying a dollar a minute to give ME constructive feedback. So, I quit this teacher and found another one at a local music store.
The new guy is okay, he listens to me play the things I practice and gives appropriate constructivve feedback. Problem to me seems that these lessons are only half an hour. I do play a bit more but jeez louise, 30 minutes is gone in the blink of an eye. This particualar teacher has hand problems that prevent him from playing the instrument to demonstrate for me how to do certain things. In my mind, that would seem to be critical to have a teacher that is able to play and demonstrate.
So, I'm considering going back to the first guy and telling him what I want from my lessons or trying to find someone else. The first teacher certainly has the knowledge and ability to play, and maybe could be a good teacher if I manage him. But, other than more time playing during the lesson, what should I be asking for? Can any of you suggest a general outline for lessons? eg: how much time working on emouchre, breathing, timing, theory, fingering, etc?
How much time during each lesson should I have the horn in my mouth vs listening to lecture?
Is 30 minutes too short for a lesson to be really useful? (kind of seems that way to me)
Anyways, I'd appreciate your advice on how to get the most from a teacher.
Thanks,
David
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-02-26 06:41
IMO, 30 minutes is appropriate for a beginner because the muscles aren't fully developed to be able to play much longer.
As far as how much time playing vs. how much time teacher-talking I try with my beginners to have them playing as much as their stamina level will allow. Occasionally if the student hasn't had much actual music ed before (i.e. "what's a quarter note" or "how long is a dotted quarter note?") then I'll have to talk a little more. Mostly when I teach it's at _least_ 20 minutes out of the 30 playing.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-02-26 09:01
You will no doubt get some expert advice on here and for me to make a contribution is a liberty as I've been playing no longer than you and my age beats yours by a couple of decades plus change. I never found playing SOME notes above the break a problem. I have inconsistency and difficulty in striking a higher note "cold turkey" but ascending as a continuous scale usually means I can get to just above the staff.
The very first time I followed the usual method of playing low E and just sliding my thumb on to the register key, it worked.
I live in the sticks and have no access to a tutor and am self teaching from a Paul Harris book designed for kids but it's working for me.
I see your problem now, as a bit of a catch 22 situation...tension. The more you try and fail, the more you will tense up when making the attempt. Make a conscious effort to relax, including your grip on the clarinet. There were times when, if I'd been stronger, I would have crushed the bloomin' thing.
If you want to play a few tunes to add interest to all the exercises, I've found that Acker Bilk's repertoire is ideal for a beginner, slow and low.
Post Edited (2012-02-26 09:03)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-02-26 14:17
A few thoughts:
For a beginner with no developed embouchure musculature, a 45 minute lesson can be a little long, because once your muscles begin to tire seriously, it's nearly impossible to do any constructive work until everything has recovered. I wouldn't teach a 4th or 5th grade beginning student for 45 minutes at first. I've only taught a couple of adult beginners, usually in 45 minute sessions, and I do tend to talk more to them, because (a) they can concentrate longer and understand more at a cognitive level than most 10-year-olds (allowing us to cover more ground in a lesson than we could in 30 minutes) and (b) to keep the lesson from totally bogging down toward the end in totally fatigued muscles that can cause serious frustration. That said, if your estimate of 3 minutes' playing time at each lesson is even nearly accurate, in my opinion the teacher talks too much. It may be he isn't really very sure what to do with a beginning student - maybe his teaching class consists mostly of more advanced students who have already settled (correctly or not) the basics and he's floundering a little about where to focus in your case.
All of that said, by 3 months, depending on how long you've been practicing at home each day, your endurance should be picking up to the point where a 45 minute lesson is reasonable with a good amount of playing interspersed with same talk time to allow for muscle recovery - much like a rehearsal during which you mostly play but have to stop periodically for the conductor to make corrections. So, I can imagine that a 30 minute lesson is very constraining for you and, if you're practicing regularly, increasingly unnecessary.
At your stage of playing, the teacher's main responsibilities are to listen to your performance, diagnose problems and help find solutions for them, and provide a model of good playing. A teacher working with a very advanced student can often provide enough feedback via verbal comment and singing to communicate the musical concepts the student needs to think about, but at a basic beginning level, the best way for a student to learn is by hearing a model. For that reason, I believe (again, my opinion - others may differ, especially if they're trying to make a living teaching instruments they don't play) it's important for the teacher of non-advanced students to play often during lessons - not a lot, but often. It's annoying to the student to spend most of the time just listening to the teacher's playing, but it's much easier for him/her to understand what a "slur" is if the teacher simply plays one as he explains how to do it, or, by the teacher's demonstration, what it sounds like when the high clarion notes lose focus and pitch because of a too lax embouchure.
Ideally, you'd be able to find someone in between the two you've tried - someone who is a good player but perhaps has more experience in dealing with teaching basic techniques. It's hard at a distance to directly judge either of the two people you've described, but from your post you seem to be a person with your feet well planted in reality who has a fairly clear idea of what he wants. If you sense that the first teacher was simply unsure of his own direction with you and would be open to your input, going back to him may work well. If the talking seemed more ego-driven, maybe not.
Karl
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Author: valoboe
Date: 2012-02-26 14:52
I am an advanced clarinetist who studied privately through college and then took up the oboe in my 40's and studied privately. My 3 children and husband are all also advanced players who have studied privately. I am not an expert but my opinion is that 30 minute lessons are for elementary school kids who dont have enough attention to sit more than 30 minutes. Once the child is motivated to practice and take it to the next level its time to move to 45-60 minute lessons. Once you move to longer lessons there will be a significant improvement.
If time, travel, or finances make hour lessons difficult, see if you can arrange an hour lesson every other week.
Several of the best teachers I have experienced spent almost the entire time of the first few lessons just talking, so you may want to give your advanced teacher another chance. If the teacher continues to talk too much, try explaining how you would like the lesson to go. I did have to change a teacher for one of my kids because he just talked way too much. Find a teacher whose style fits best with your learning style.
Here's another thing and I hate to admit it. Its going to take longer to learn when you are older. I wrongly assummed that learning the oboe shouldn't be difficult since it was so easy to learn the clarinet but youth is really wasted on the young. Expect your progress to be a little slower.
You may want to look into getting "Smart Music" ( www.smartmusic.com/ ) on your computer. The middle school kids are all using it now and many of their adult parents have picked up instruments and are also learning to play. It makes learning a new instrument more fun.
Good luck and stick with it!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-02-26 15:20
valoboe wrote:
> Here's another thing and I hate to admit it. Its going to take
> longer to learn when you are older. I wrongly assummed that
> learning the oboe shouldn't be difficult since it was so easy
> to learn the clarinet but youth is really wasted on the young.
> Expect your progress to be a little slower.
>
This may have been more a problem for Valerie because she already had clarinet-based habits built up that needed to be changed.
Another reason why adults sometimes find it harder to learn to play an instrument than young children do is that adults spend much more attention and energy on trying to do things "right," which can lead to stiffness and tension as the adult student tried to make everything look right and follow all of the teacher's instructions to the letter and unconsciously get in their own way. Kids mostly don't care about doing things "correctly," they just want to get a result and are more likely just to relax and look for their own way.
Karl
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Author: William
Date: 2012-02-26 16:46
You should be over the 'break' after three months. Just finger low F and depress the register key. C5 should pop right out with proper breath support. After that, take one finger away at a time and your up to C6. I've had many 11 yr old beginners able to do this by the second quarter of regular band lessons so please believe it is possible. Perhaps, as one poster reasoned, you may be too intent on doing everything 'correctly' and therefore, progressing too cautiously. My advice, "JUST DO IT" and don't worry so much about 'how'. Bottom line, have fun....like the rest of us agonystickers.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2012-02-26 17:48
<FWIW, I'm working on scale exercises in "F" and "G" from the Rubank Elementary method book. I'm still not playing above the break after 3 months of lessons, and 30 minutes to an hour of daily practice. I am up to the throat Bb using the register key but not beyond.
About not playing above the break after 3 months, that is not such a bad thing for anyone, although it can be frustrating for an adult. I mean, you have music to play, right? The thing is, until you have a solid basis on the lower notes, the upper ones should wait. Success above the break is predicated upon the fingers getting a good cover on the open tone holes. So, if a student is having trouble playing low E, F, and G due to a finger not completely covering, there is little chance of getting B, C, and D. (Could it be your hand problem is causing some difficulty here?)
Keep up the good work, and we will be pleased to hear of your progress!
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-02-26 19:05
'Above the break' is just that, they are the overblown versions of the lower notes. You need to put more energy into the corresponding higher note - more air.
I remember back to when I started clarinet wondering why I could only play all those nice low notes and yet Benny Goodman played only those nice high notes. Although three months sounds long enough to me.
Try a re-negotiation with the good player. Detente is a good thing.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2012-02-26 19:10
OK, I may answer some questions you haven't asked here, but this should give you a good basis upon which to judge when you've found a good teacher.
At your level, you should have to practice each week:
1) a scale,
2) a tonguing etude,
3) a technique etude,
4) a simple melodic etude or familiar melody
5) a rhythm etude (if rhythm is a problem).
*Note that skill etudes can be and will be combined into longer exercises that encompass different skills as you get more advanced.
A good teacher should be able to get through these easily in 30 minutes with an average student and still have time for something fun like a duet or pop tune. Most good teachers will only play or talk when necessary to keep the lesson on track, fix a problem, or demonstrate a point. If you are good at imitating what you hear, a teacher that can't play may inhibit your progress some, but probably not a lot. With a really good teacher, you will probably feel like you just had an intense half hour guided practice session.
As far as going over the break, things need to be introduced progressively. You are not ready to go over the break until:
1) your embouchure is strong,
2) your air support is dynamic,
3) you can tongue properly,
4) you can consistently cover the tone holes with both hands,
5) your hand position is close to correct and somewhat relaxed,
6) your note recognition, counting, and rhythms are progressing satisfactorily.
So, you may or may not be ready for the upper register. That would be up to your teacher. Note that I usually have quickly advancing students play over the break a few lessons before they actually have etudes or tunes over the break by having them play low F and G while pushing the register key. This helps acclimate them to the idea before they have to worry about the fingering challenges that the break presents. Most good method books typically do this, anyway.
If I were you, I would keep looking for a teacher if you are not happy. When you find a good teacher for you, I don't think you'll have any doubts.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-02-27 13:32
I am a 57 year old man who decided to re-learn clarinet after an almost 40 year lay off. I began when I was 12, and was taught by my brother who was a professional sax player in NYC by the time he was 19. He had taught himself clarinet only two years prior, even though he had taken lessons on sax when he started out. My brother was certainly not experienced as a teacher but I can remember the methodology we used in our kitchen all those years ago. We used the same Rubank elementary book that I use today. He had his clarinet out and would play an exercise whenever my approach was vastly off or I needed inspiration. Otherwise he would just listen and ask me to repeat a few bars after a comment or two. My embrasure strangely held up longer for a 45 minute lesson than it does today. Nowadays, with my prior musical knowledge and high standards of tone production driving me, I can only manage a half hour of straight practice time before the corners of my lips start to leak air. I played only the mouthpiece for two weeks while my original clarinet was in the shop a few weeks ago. Currently, I have about three solid weeks of practice everyday for my re-learn. Each day after practice I spend time re-learning the fingerings on a chart, and also using a computer program called "learn rhythm" on the ipad. I'm having some trouble tapping out dotted 8th notes combined with 8th note rests on a syncopated beat on the ipad without more than an occasional error, and I work on this for about 15 minutes a day. (level 3 of the Ipad course, and the computer will mark you wrong if you're even a fraction of a second off with your finger tapping).
The upper register is a problem for me as I currently play the b and c just above the register with a wavering tone and an occasional momentary grunt just before the note begins with a tongue lift off. Otherwise, I only seem to have trouble with the upper register when I go back and forth over the break quickly. Tonguing is going much more slowly for me because I still am hearing crud at the beginning of every tongued note much of the time. When I really focus I can go up and down the scale from high C to lowest E without a major tonguing mistake but often the pitch varies for a microsecond just as the tongue lifts on about a third of the notes in those octaves. Each day I practice something fun like Summertime from Porgy and Bess and Bach's Minuet in G.
I would like to point out that even though I sound damned good for someone who has only played for three weeks after a 40 year layoff, I am fully aware that learning speed has absolutely nothing to do with where a student will be in five years. There are students that catch on quickly and then make little progress and students who are slow to learn but never stop slow steady progress. Slow and steady will take you a lot farther than fast out of the gate.
I know this about learning because the reason I quit 40 years ago was because I got a salary paid scholorship to a ballet academy when I was 18 or 19. That's right, they actually paid me almost a living wage just to take four or five hours of ballet classes each day. I was so afraid that I would mess up and lose that scholorship that I laid the clarinet down and never picked up until last month when my 8 year old son said he would like to "play my old horn". I'm starting him on recorder for the time being. Back in the 70's in NY, people who studied ballet as their career seemed to be obsessive, working in class and on their own each day until their brains and bodies were fried. For more than 10 years I never took a day off unless I was very sick and I found that the driven can push themselves past almost impassable obstacles. That is what I found from my brother too, and as a professional musician I noticed that each of his days consisted of basically nothing else but music, (long tones, scales, band practice, talking and thinking and listening music). His obsessiveness eventually led to his insanity and resulting suicide last year. I can never hope to be a ballet dancer again, nor can I hope to reach his level of musical ability, but I will learn to take the middle ground. If one practices an hour a day in earnest, I am convinced that not only will the problems with going over the break slowly melt but so will just about any other issue that we face with the clarinet (and there are many - tonguing, time, throat tones to match the clarion, pitch, flowing fingerings, ease, tonal quality, expression etc.).
I would not for one minute be discouraged with your troubles with the upper register as I am sure that much of this has to do with developing musculature and endurance in the facial support structure. To help with that I might suggest using a one inch button tied to a piece of heavy cord. You put the button in your mouth behind your lips but in front of your teeth. You then hold your teeth open about the same distance you would if a mouthpiece were in it. Then you tug on the cord and use the entire lip structure to resist letting the button get pulled out. After a few minutes of this, my lips are almost burning with lactic acid metabolic bi-products. That's it, you keep practicing and I will too. I'm only up to lesson 16 of the Rubank book and I find it a real challenge that I look forward to every day. I bet that within another three months the register change will not seem so daunting to you as it does today. Also have your teacher play your instrument just to see if there isn't a leak somewhere. A leak makes the clarion impossible even if the chalemeau is playable.
Garth Libre in Miami Fl.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: whangler
Date: 2012-02-28 00:24
Thank you all for the detailed, thoughtful replies. I'm not too worried about going over the break, I'll get there in due time. I've tried and can make the notes up to about the E at the top of the staff but that's juming ahead of my lessons. Now, I'm working on just getting the fingering down where you quickly finger the right hand notes above throat G up to Bb and back down.
I now have some good ideas about what to look for in a teacher or how to renegotiate with my first one if the others I find don't suit me any better than the current teacher.
I think I will use the Smartmusic that one of you recommended, that looks like a good system to augment my lessons.
As a guitar player I was a copy cat with no ability really to improvise. All well and good but kind of limiting when jamming with others. I am hoping that with clarinet, I will establish new practice habits and become facile with scales and scale exercises in every relevant key, and be able to improvise some. Of course I'd like to become a fluent notation reader/player and maybe join a community band or something somewhere down the road. But for now, I'll just keep plugging away.
Thanks again for all of your replies. Most helpful and relevant.
Best regards,
David
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-03-01 16:56
David. Here's my $0.02.
My hour lesson flies by. I make a weekly 170 mile drive for that hour and want to get as much out of it as I possibly can. Sometimes, I record it because sometimes my teacher is just spewing like a fire hose; and my brain fails to take home with me all that I paid for.
There's good advice here on what you should be practicing. Recently, its become clearer to me WHY scales, arpeggios, scales in thirds are so bloody important. When those are "in your fingers," you can play things right off (sight read) without having to learn a particular piece of music.
Scales
Scales in thirds
Arpeggios
Another recent realization: By golly, the clarinet is a wind instrument, and you have to blow it to make it sound. If you forget (amidst all that other stuff you need to do at the same time) to support your air (support your tone), everything gets much harder to do, and you sound like, well, crap. Having teacher #1 spend (recorded?) time with you on support and getting to where you can do it will pay back a whole lot of those $1 minutes.
On that clarion register: show someone where the register key is have that partner sneak it open on you in a big surprise. YOU play a low note, your HELPER flips the reg key open, and voila! you're playing a note that is an octave and a half higher. This will work if your embouchure is solid, and your air is well supported. Giving up the register key to someone else will convince you that 1.) you can play up there, and 2.) that you need to blow the horn to make it work.
Once you KNOW that you can play in the clarion, you will have to make your fingers work properly to get down again. Early on, most of what you're playing will come back across the break in an orderly way, say from "long B" to open G and go back the same way. For those cases, you can keep your right hand down --or "lead with your right hand" so that the only places that the clarinet can leak is in the your left hand.
Know that it is much easier to get UP than it is to get back DOWN.
Enjoy, don't rush your progress, and be thorough with what you are working on before pressing on.
Enjoy.
Bob Phillips
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