 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Benjamin
Date: 2011-12-13 21:17
Just wondering how the internal dimensions change between the traditional beak, profile 88, and 13 Series.
Does a B40-13 play lower than a B40 from different internal dimensions, longer length, or both?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-13 21:55
GOOD QUESTION !!!!
The 13 series mouthpieces feature a larger tone chamber which lowers the pitch. The 88 beak only shaves material off the external portion and allows greater comfort (????) if you prefer a smaller mouth opening for the same amount of mouthpiece in your mouth. Personally I prefer to feel more beak myself.
My big beef with the 'lower mouthpiece' is that they throw of the twelfths of your clarinet ........ and may lead you down the expensive path of a multitude of custom barrels that you may not have needed in the first place.
.........so much for my rant on the '13 Series.'
Some mouthpiece makers actually do make SHORTER mouthpieces for the sake of pitch such as the Genusa mouthpieces by Ben Redwine, but Vandoren is not one of them.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2011-12-14 02:10
Paul, it is so funny that you say that! I've been playing on a Gennusa I purchased from Ben almost a year ago, and today actually, I tried a Vandoren M30 (profile 88, I think?). The pitch tendencies are ridiculously different (bad!) on the Vandoren than I would have expected. Now I understand why.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-14 09:59
Dear Beth,
Ok, I find myself being an apologist for the Gennusa which are mainly LOWER mouthpieces. I find so many things right with them that I make allowances. Ben Redwine offers some that are "European Pitched" a few millimeters shorter but I haven't found that the shortening really addresses the the issue with the large internal dimensions.
I would guess that you are experiencing a pitch differential between the Gennusa and a STANDARD pitch (non 13 series ....... nr 13 located in oval to right of table) Vandoren.
If this is NOT the case I would really like to know !!!!
.....................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2011-12-14 10:01)
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2011-12-14 23:13
You are completely right about the difference in pitch. The pitch of my Gennusa is definitely lower than the Vandoren I'm trying... almost immediately after playing on the Vandoren, I could hear the pitch tendencies that were noticeably higher on the Vandoren than my Gennusa. Before I switched to the Gennusa, I was playing on a Pyne Signature... now that I think about it, the switch was easy because the pitch tendencies didn't change a whole lot...
Do you have any advice about playing on Vandoren mouthpieces (the profile 88)? I like it (somewhat), but I'm finding that I have a lot of issues with chirping... It's probably that I just haven't quite figured out the changes in embouchure/jaw pressure/voicing, but any pointers would be appreciated.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-15 04:05
I usually find chirping to be related to the unevenness of the strength of the reed (side to side at the tip) or the evenness (or lack thereof) of the mouthpiece facing from one side to the other.
HOWEVER, the 88 is made so that you are placing your embouchure at the same point along the facing as usual BUT with a less open mouth (due to less material at the top of the mouthpiece). So, it may be helpful while you 'break in' the Vandoren to check a few times every time you start playing with it where exactly to place your teeth. The time honored method for this is to play an open G, starting as close to the tip as possible, keep playing the open G while you gradually insert more and more mouthpiece. At some point you will achieve a great big SQUAWK. Back off just slightly from that point, and this is the ideal placement for this mouthpiece. This might help the chirping.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-15 06:03
Paul,
I have always been confused when I read of this method for determining the ideal mouthpiece placement. Mainly because it isn't what I do, though that makes it a faulty method not.
Just for my clarity; and perhaps even for others:
Do you allow more of your lower-lip to slide into the mouth as you progressively insert more mouthpiece?
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I don't like to delve into mouthpiece math too much here as it is a limiting topic, but;
As for physically shortening a mouthpiece that tunes low, I have found limited luck as well. (Plus the effervescent scent is lovely when you're running the lathe.)
If the pitch differential is because of an slight exit bore mismatch, then some success can be had.
However, low pitch often also comes from an excessively large chamber/low baffle (in an effort to create a "dark" sound). -That can not easily be corrected.
As the 13 series attempts to "copy" the old Chedeville chamber (which was over-sized in many cases), low pitch problems can arise. (However, I find that the traditional Vandorens tend to run sharp across the board...... save the B40 for some odd reason.)
If it is to be known, though it really doesn't matter, I don't use Vandorens.... but not for any pitch deficiencies. They do make quite useable mouthpieces. I simply have other quite useable mouthpieces that I prefer- names matter not.
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Pardon the aside
-Jason
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-15 09:40
The mouthpiece/embouchure check is a bit less straightforward than on paper BECAUSE you DON'T take in more lower lip as you go along....... the whole idea is to maintain the embouchure. So the procedure can be more a 'repositioning by increments' process.
The main issue with the 'LOW' pitch mouthpiece problem is that it doesn't represent a global pitch change to the entire horn but rather it throws off the twelfths. 'Back-in-the-day' what one worried about was applying too much jaw pressure (yes, the 'B' word) resulting in terminal sharpness. Now, though the nastiest pitch issues are resolved through equipment, many of us are faced with bigger internal pitch problems that are much harder to fix than simply applying a correct embouchure.
As far as name not mattering, I would say that because there are SOOOOO many 'custom' makers that tend down this path (save for Clark Fobes) in that respect it doesn't really matter. Vandoren is an easy target because they offer both versions and expose the issue for what it is........ TROUBLE with a capital 'T.'
.................Paul Aviles
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